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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » A plea for good archer mechanics (if there are archers, lol)

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64 posts found
  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3216

3/30/13 9:32:43 AM#41
The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was.  I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc.  This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc.  Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire.  Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.
  Pie_Rat

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 310

3/30/13 9:37:39 AM#42
Originally posted by binskki

/agree about the supply of arrows...I had almost completely repressed that memory, meddyck, lol.

 

 

Would be even cooler if there was a limited supply of arrows but you could get some arrows back off your enemy after slaying him if you manage to get close enough to his corpse.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing an archer class that has a couple melee attacks using an arrow as a melee weapon (Legolas style) or even his bow.

Currently playing: Football Manager 2015.

Getting more kicks out of a single player sports RPG than any MMO on the market. A sad state of affairs indeed...

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

3/30/13 9:43:46 AM#43
Originally posted by Gravarg
The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was.  I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc.  This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc.  Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire.  Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.

You don't need inventory arrows for that. After archery was revamped in DAOC, you still had abilities that chnaged your arrows' damage type to crush, thrust, or slash to allow you to take advantage of the armor your target was wearing.

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

3/30/13 9:46:21 AM#44
Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows. I assume that wouldn't be the only thing the crafters would be doing during the fight but the idea adds to team play.

  CU_now_please

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/13
Posts: 47

3/30/13 10:14:16 AM#45
Originally posted by Daizedd                                                                                                                                                                Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows.

And maybe the durability went down on that arrow so it can be reused but eventually would break... and if you killed 5 people with the same arrow there's a title in it for you.. and crafters some how crit create a special stack of extra powerfull arrows... and you can save them for when you want to hit a little harder and actively seek to get them back after you use them... 

/anon

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

 
OP  3/30/13 10:37:45 AM#46
Originally posted by CU_now_please
Originally posted by Daizedd                                                                                                                                                                Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows.

And maybe the durability went down on that arrow so it can be reused but eventually would break... and if you killed 5 people with the same arrow there's a title in it for you.. and crafters some how crit create a special stack of extra powerfull arrows... and you can save them for when you want to hit a little harder and actively seek to get them back after you use them... 

Love these ideas!

Having lots of ways for crafters to be useful...and even essential...in strategic warfare is terrific, and it would be great if they could crit a stack of extra-wonderful arrows. 

Looting arrows would be a way of mitigating the interesting problem of having to carry 2000 arrows around with you everywhere you go.  A chance to replenish your arrow supply...but only if you are victorious. :)

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/30/13 11:00:44 AM#47
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by PerfArt
Two things:

1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).

2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.

This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.

There is a lot that could be done with this model.

As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.

I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.

OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.

Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.

 

I think that there is a way to approach scouting and archers as one and the same class, without having them being "considered" OPed.

Before i continue, i want to mention that i'll be approaching stealth, but i do not want to hijack this thread and making it yet another stealth related thread. So' i'll mention how i think it could work as its pretty much related to the bow mechanics.

What i started to think about was this : what exactly is Stealth ? its not only a skill, but a specialisation, that includes other skills than the usual "don't be seen"  in order to be a "master of discretion"

 

I think it can be possible to make archer classes become also the scout class without making them too powerful with long range shots with high damage and giving them a high stealth "level" ability. Having bow and stealth as two distinct spec lines. the more efficient your stealth is, the lower is your damage possibility with a bow.

Using DAoC's numbers regarding your level. at max level 50 you could have i.e. 25 in bow and 25 in stealth. The total amount of "levels" between the 2 of them would never go higher than 50. you could have 40 in stealth, and 10 in bow, etc.

That leaves the scouts function to bow users, wich i think thats how it should be. and at the same time you limit the OP possibility behind it.

A good way to make stealth a pure stealth spec line is having more than the actual stealthing ability in that line, but skills, and other factors that affect your stealth could be added :

- move silently : someone can stealth, but it doesnt mean he wont make any noise. adding the move silently skill in the stealth line spec (either learned before or after stealth is learned, depending on other factors), so implementing footsteps sounds, or i.e. random sounds that are made by the stealthers at random moments (depending on stats or skill) could be a way to make it riskier, and it would work well with the chaos FP and randomness FP.

- Armor / equipment : The armor the stealther is wearing should definatly have an impact on all skills within stealth line spec (making cloth, and fur the best choices, thus removing alot of absorbance from bigger armor) (Choice matters !)

- Time needed to activate stealth : It could be determined from the level of stealth, it shouldnt be as easy for a "level 3" to hide himself as fast as a higher level.

- add a "crawl" movement : It would make more sense in certain situations to have to crawl in order to stealth properly. Crawling COULD also be a skill. On that same thought, there could be a "move silently" skill in walking position, and one in crawling mode.

- Encumbrance : could also be a key factor. the more stuff you have, the more weight you carry, the more difficult it could be to stealth / move silently

- Numbers counts ! : "The more the merrier" could be something that stealthers don't agree; the more important is the quantity of stealther within a certain radius, the more likely they are to be detected, unless maybe they're setting an ambush and no movement at all is made, until a sudden attack

Landscape : A key factor for any good stealther is the landscape he is travelling in. So there is a few things that i thought regarding that :

        - First option : Why not make the different landscape found in CU haviing either + or - bonuses ?

        - Second option : Make stealth in each landscape a level required ? (i.e. forest = level 5 , swamps = level 15, towns = level 25 etc).

        - Third option : At specific levels of stealth, you are allowed to choose one more landscape in wich you are good at stealthing. Players could then choose where they will more efficient.

        - Fourth possibility : At character creation, make a section where stealthers wannabes can be given i.e. 20 points to put wherever they want in the various landscapes ?

 

 

So going back the topic of this thread, doing something like this would allow to keep a bow mechanic / damage input relatively like it was in DAoC, because most of us agree that it was pretty good. What was considered OPed was that it was combined with stealth, allowing big initial damage from a invisible position. Doing something like that (and i sure aint saying it should be implemented exactly like this, but its a good way to approach this) would allow scouting the class that it belongs the most : archers.

P.S. : please dont debate on the stealth options mentionned, they were written there especially to approach the "problem" of allowing bows to stealther, wich concerns the bow mechanic in general. I'll be more than happy to discuss those in another thread or in PM if needs be.

 

 

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  Oldskoo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/13
Posts: 190

3/30/13 11:40:45 AM#48
Originally posted by BowbowDAoC
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by PerfArt
Two things:

1) Archery is, at the least, ranged dps. As such, limiting the dps is important for any scout class concept, because this game is puportedly one where everyone has a role to play that is distinct. Giving scouts too much damage AND usable scouting utility could possibly compromise the actual ranged dps class role (probably casters).

2) There are many possibilities for archery that don't involve pure damage, and this is where crafters come into play. Imagine a range of utility arrows that served different functions. Flares. Marking enemy groups on the fly and thus making them easier to track for a time. Pinning arrows that disabled other ranged abilities for a short time (ala nearsight) etc.

This opens up a wider trading world for crafters and lets scouts have "magical" arrows that operate mechanically like real arrows. Limit their dps but give them utility.

There is a lot that could be done with this model.

As to the firing model interface, I loved DAoC's original.

I agree. I really do want to find a way to get scouts in the game as well as "pure" archers. I do think a very wide variety of arrows is also a good thing for both archers and crafters. Maybe I'm wrong on this but I think we can make archers powerful, interesting and a bit squishy and still have a class that people want to play but that other people can still kill. But the only way to do that is to be willing to really think about tossing out a lot of the mechanics that so many current MMOs use for their archer types.

OTOH, my brain is fried so I'm heading to bed while I can still figure out how to make one foot walk ahead of the other. Been a long week.

Oh, and if I haven't said it today, I really appreciate all the feedback/suggestions/patience of the community. It's been a lot of fun, even today and I remain deeply grateful. Night all.

 

 

(SNIP)

 

I think it can be possible to make archer classes become also the scout class without making them too powerful with long range shots with high damage and giving them a high stealth "level" ability. Having bow and stealth as two distinct spec lines. the more efficient your stealth is, the lower is your damage possibility with a bow.

(SNIP)

Landscape : A key factor for any good stealther is the landscape he is travelling in. So there is a few things that i thought regarding that :

        - First option : Why not make the different landscape found in CU haviing either + or - bonuses ?

        - Second option : Make stealth in each landscape a level required ? (i.e. forest = level 5 , swamps = level 15, towns = level 25 etc).

        - Third option : At specific levels of stealth, you are allowed to choose one more landscape in wich you are good at stealthing. Players could then choose where they will more efficient.

        - Fourth possibility : At character creation, make a section where stealthers wannabes can be given i.e. 20 points to put wherever they want in the various landscapes ?

 

 

So going back the topic of this thread, doing something like this would allow to keep a bow mechanic / damage input relatively like it was in DAoC, because most of us agree that it was pretty good. What was considered OPed was that it was combined with stealth, allowing big initial damage from a invisible position. Doing something like that (and i sure aint saying it should be implemented exactly like this, but its a good way to approach this) would allow scouting the class that it belongs the most : archers.

(SNIP)

 

 

I like your ideas and specifically wanted to agree with the parts above. Its clear the bow class will need to be different than it has been in other mmos. Take out stealth or massive shots from uber long range. As you mention here (and  go into great depth sharing examples of), it can be done ! Thanks for the thoughts on the bow class. I had been thinking about the issue myself and came to the same conclusion about terrain being one answer to an interesting and viable bow class. Good stuff Bowbow - thanks for looking out for our archers! :)

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 325

3/30/13 11:43:48 AM#49
Originally posted by Daizedd
Assuming a limited space for arrows in a quiver, one could imagine a battle where one or two crafter(s) might participate by ensuring that archers had a constant supply of arrows during the fight. Would be cool if archers could also loot dead corpses to recover arrows. I assume that wouldn't be the only thing the crafters would be doing during the fight but the idea adds to team play.

This is very interesting in that fighting would also keep the crafters busy. Nice idea Daizedd.:)

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

3/30/13 12:07:03 PM#50
Originally posted by Gravarg
The bonus for giving up your time fletching, and your slots was that you could switch your damage type to whatever the enemy's weakness was.  I don't recall which is which, but if you saw a warrior in plate running at your keep, you switched to blunthead arrows, etc.  This was a big advantage that no other class type had in daoc.  Your attacks, if you know what you were doing, could always be the maximum compared to say a wizard that fired bolts of fire.  Some one runs up to you with like 60% fire resistance...you're pretty much dead hehe.

Not quite true....most casters had more than one type of damage they could cast.....

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/30/13 12:13:34 PM#51

I believe one of the original RAs was "Arrow Recovery" or "Salvage" or something which allowed Archers a probability to not expend an arrow on shots... or am I dreaming that?  Or thinking of another game?

Again, I'll say I liked the crafted arrow mechanic.  I enjoyed filling my quiver and going out into battle.  It also annoyed me when I'd look at my quiver and realize I was low on Footed Flight Barbed arrows so I'd have to choose my targets wisely... in a good way.  That's just a great, immersive part of the game which added a clever layer to battle without affecting its workings or balance.

Was it a disadvantage?  Sure... so what?  In the specific context of battle, it didn't make any difference.

Here's a thought about resupplying:  There has been a lot of talk about "supply chains" and "supply wagons" bringing siege materials here and there.  Why not make these wagons serve as "moving crafting stations" so Archers can craft arrows, tanks can hone weapons, smiths can repair armor on the battlefield?  That kind of stuff.  Or, perhaps a crafter class could provide this ability...

Oh, and.... GRAPHICAL QUIVERS FTW!

 

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/30/13 12:28:25 PM#52

All melee damage dealers had that same advantage to some extent. you could fight with a mace, a sword etc, witch dealt different kind of damage.

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/30/13 1:02:35 PM#53
Nice ideas, Bowbow! Interesting approach to stealth vs. dps, with variety :)

I give it two broadheads up.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 325

3/30/13 1:08:05 PM#54
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Oh, and.... GRAPHICAL QUIVERS FTW!

 

Yep a must have!

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

3/30/13 1:09:23 PM#55
No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/30/13 1:16:42 PM#56
@fanglo

Fair enough. However, what would you give them to compensate?

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/30/13 2:03:44 PM#57
Originally posted by fanglo
No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.

This is an unfair generalization.  It was not a broken mechanic in DAoC, it was a misunderstood mechanic with myriad counters which players were slow to recognize in the early days.  In the very early days of the game, shields were grossly underutilized, as was /guard and /engage.  I remember picking off casters running WITH tanks who were not /guarding... and destroying 2-Handed Pallies because they just wouldn't equip a shield... as time went on, players learned and adapted.

Unfortunately for Archers, there were a few knee-jerk reactions from Mythic which began the slow, painful castration of the class archetype.  By the time ToA got rolling, pure-Archers could kill no one, reliably... least of all casters.

Now, I'm not advocating for the Stealth/Archer paradigm.  I would much rather see an Archer class with some nice DPS and utility and/or a Scout class with some interesting skills and utility.  But I do think it's a false generalization to say Stealth and Range are bad together.

I think one of the standards for an Archer class should be a GTAoE/ "Volley" type ability.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/30/13 2:13:05 PM#58
Nice post, Tumblebutz

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/30/13 2:34:15 PM#59
Originally posted by fanglo
No stealth for archers. They didn't need it in DaoC and they won't need it in CU. Allowing a class to have stealth and superior range is a broken mechanic no matter how you look at it.

The "no matter how you look at it" is totally false. There is plenty of ways to have both in the same class if we wanted to. In some games they simply didnt work at it. I suggested a general idea for that too, a diferent approach that can lead to something better.

even in DAoC it wasnt that OPed, i'm not saying it didnt need a bit of adjustements, but the fact is it wasnt that much unbalanced. As always, the combination of stealth and long range big damage made it look worst, but if little adjustments is made, the problem is solved.

 

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

 
OP  3/30/13 2:40:14 PM#60

You're right, Tumblebutz...there was an RA that gave you a chance not to expend an arrow.  Had forgotten that.

It would be more fun...and challenging...to have to loot them off of bodies, though. :)

Some fantastic ideas here!

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