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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » How many abilities do you want?

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90 posts found
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2721

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/30/13 1:06:52 PM#61

I love the limited hotbar approach because it makes you choose wisely what to put on your hotbar creating a Deck Building subgame.  This gives you more choice and allows skills and abilities to be more powerful then their multi-hotbar cousins.

 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2721

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/30/13 1:10:57 PM#62
Originally posted by meddyck

I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:

  1. Normal heal
  2. Big heal with a higher power cost
  3. Normal group heal
  4. Big group heal with a higher power cost
  5. Instant heal
  6. Instant group heal
  7. Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
  8. Rez a realm mate
  9. Root an enemy
  10. Free myself from all CC effects
  11. Poison an enemy
  12. Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
  13. Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
  14. Free a realm mate from root
  15. Summon a pet
  16. Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
  17. Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
  18. Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
  19. Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me  in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
  20. Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.

You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

3/30/13 1:33:47 PM#63
Go ahead and condense down to 4 abilities then. If it is that easy. Also, why does x number of skills take your eyes off the battle? I'm not following.

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/30/13 3:26:52 PM#64
Originally posted by belatucadros
Go ahead and condense down to 4 abilities then. If it is that easy. Also, why does x number of skills take your eyes off the battle? I'm not following.

You don't get how having a lot of hotbars taking up screenspace and looking them for CD's, etc takes your view off the battlefield/game?

This:

http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce_6800_gs/images/guild_wars_1.jpg

vs:

http://oi55.tinypic.com/jgmumx.jpg

or heaven forbid:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2008/04/mak_analysispt1_large.jpg

 

I'd much rather watch the game, have as little screenspace as needed taken up by a skillbar and intead be able to ues muscle memory controls with my hands then hotkey  hotkey hotkey.

 

A lot of "skills/abilities" in mmo's can be condensed down into part of normal control functions and abilities.

 

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/30/13 4:26:11 PM#65
My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface.  Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor.  If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/30/13 4:41:24 PM#66
Originally posted by Set_in_Ink
My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface.  Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor.  If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.

 

What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.

Would that still not be enough in your opinion?

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/30/13 4:49:44 PM#67
I would still not be happy with that because there are abilities that you only need to use once in a blue moon.  No sane person would put them on the action bars if you have a limited number of spaces, but they still play their part.  There are always classes that use less and more abilities than others, but with decent design from the team and creativity from the player (via macros and binds) any class should be manageable by everyone with just that little bit of effort.  If someone is unable not play class x or y because they can't handle the actions of said class, they probably need to move on to another class.  Not to say there should be a ridiculous amount of actions for the sake of them being there, but we do need some variation and the ability to use our entire toolkit, even if some abilities are rarely used.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  RealLifeGobbo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 218

3/30/13 4:49:55 PM#68


Originally posted by Stiler

Originally posted by Set_in_Ink My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface.  Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor.  If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
 

What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.

Would that still not be enough in your opinion?


I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).

Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  Sensai

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 92

3/30/13 8:15:09 PM#69
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by Stiler

Originally posted by Set_in_Ink My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface.  Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor.  If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
 

 

What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.

Would that still not be enough in your opinion?


 

I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).

Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg.  This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc.  While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game.  Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy.  GW2 has already shown this to be the case..

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

3/30/13 8:25:43 PM#70
More unique skills is always better.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

3/30/13 8:32:02 PM#71
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by meddyck

I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:

  1. Normal heal
  2. Big heal with a higher power cost
  3. Normal group heal
  4. Big group heal with a higher power cost
  5. Instant heal
  6. Instant group heal
  7. Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
  8. Rez a realm mate
  9. Root an enemy
  10. Free myself from all CC effects
  11. Poison an enemy
  12. Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
  13. Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
  14. Free a realm mate from root
  15. Summon a pet
  16. Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
  17. Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
  18. Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
  19. Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me  in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
  20. Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.

You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.

Only the not so good players watch their skill bars...

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/30/13 11:26:25 PM#72
Originally posted by Sensai

Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg.  This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc.  While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game.  Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy.  GW2 has already shown this to be the case..

GW2 is a HORRIBLE example of this.  Look at GW1 instead for how it would work.  I think most people don't want to go back to the days of having to use 4+ hotbars of stuff.  And no WoW/Rift style macro's are not answer, that is just using scripting to automate your attack priorities. 

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/31/13 1:01:48 AM#73
Originally posted by drakon3
Originally posted by Sensai

Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg.  This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc.  While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game.  Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy.  GW2 has already shown this to be the case..

GW2 is a HORRIBLE example of this.  Look at GW1 instead for how it would work.  I think most people don't want to go back to the days of having to use 4+ hotbars of stuff.  And no WoW/Rift style macro's are not answer, that is just using scripting to automate your attack priorities. 

WoW in-game macros do not in any way allow you to automate anything.  That would be botting and would earn you a ban.  You must physically perform every action just as you would in DAoC or without the use of macros.  They are mainly used for simplification and personal preference.  Having never played Rift, I can not comment on that particular game.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/31/13 1:42:03 AM#74

What I mean by automate is this......It takes all the strategy out of having different abilities.

 

Do maxdamagestyle

If on cooldown then do 2ndbeststyle

If on cooldown then do 3rdbeststyle

If on cooldown then do basicstyle

If out of range then do basicrangedd

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/31/13 3:21:24 AM#75
Originally posted by Sensai
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by Stiler

Originally posted by Set_in_Ink My UI/action bars on WoW are no where near that, and, in fact, they are very similar to my action bars on DAoC, but with less space used because of the superior macro system and, if melee/hybrid, fewer combat styles. Those are just a few examples of people who don't know how to set-up their bars or play without a ridiculous interface.  Very few abilities need to be used on cooldown, and the global cooldown is not something you really need to monitor.  If I only had the ability to use eight actions, I'd not even bother playing the game.
 

 

What if it was like Guild Wars 1/The Secret World, a "deck" type system whereby classes are given a lot of skills/abilities, but have to pick and choose which ones they wish to use in battle? Mixing and matching skills and learning tactics that work well together can lead to many different "builds" within even the same class.

Would that still not be enough in your opinion?


 

I never played Guild Wars, but I had a friend who did and the whole "deck" concept is the thing that intrigued me the most about it. Since you mention it, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like that again -- adds another element of strategy when building a toon.

EDIT: I wouldn't mind having say, one full quick bar of abilities (12).

Sorry, but to me this goes totaly against the spirit of a throwback mmorpg.  This isn't pokemon, magic the gathering, etc.  While there may be some strategy invovled in loading the right abilities prior to engaging in combat, I do not believe that this is where the strategy is supposed to reside in this game.  Furthermore, what ends up happening with a system like this is that it always gets boiled down to the "best" skill/ability set choice and everyone will run the same skills/abilities, removing any sense of strategy.  GW2 has already shown this to be the case..

Guild Wars 2 doesn't use the same system as Guild wars 1.

 

in Guild wars 1 you had to decide what abiliies to place on your deck and everything. In guild wars 2 they no longer give you this choice, instead your weapon determines what "skills" you are given, and thus every claass that uses the same weapon type has those same skills, period.

 

I preferred the GW1 style myself.

 

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1132

 
OP  3/31/13 5:47:51 AM#76
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by meddyck

I think you are misunderstanding me, Cexy. My concern is with how many abilities are available to you to use at any given time. I want classes to have some complexity to them and not be restricted to only ever having 10 skills they can use with the option to switch out some skills with other skills but not to use all of your skills. For instance on a CU healer I might want to have skills such as:

  1. Normal heal
  2. Big heal with a higher power cost
  3. Normal group heal
  4. Big group heal with a higher power cost
  5. Instant heal
  6. Instant group heal
  7. Remove a negative effect such as poison, nearsight, disease from a realm mate
  8. Rez a realm mate
  9. Root an enemy
  10. Free myself from all CC effects
  11. Poison an enemy
  12. Short duration group buff that increases magic resistance 33%
  13. Short duration group buff that increases physical resistance 33%
  14. Free a realm mate from root
  15. Summon a pet
  16. Realm ability that allows me to cast through interruptions for a short time
  17. Realm ability that makes my pet do 50% more damage and have CC immunity for a short time
  18. Realm ability that gives me 100% power pool
  19. Realm ability that creates a shield that drains enemies who attack me  in melee of 50% of their stamina and snares them for a few seconds
  20. Realm ability that gives my group 100% increased power regeneration for a short time
You can't fit all of that into 1 quickbar. That's my point. I want CU to be a game that solves the problem by giving me enough quickbars that it can have more complex classes not by stripping down classes to only 10 abilities.

You could easily condesne that down to 3-4 skills LOL, which would have the benefit of allowing you to actually watch the action on the screen and not the UI.

The UI is part of the action on the screen. And I don't see how you could condense those 20 skills into 3-4 unless you are wanting to have 1 button that heals your target and decides how big of a heal to cast for you, also casts a group heal, also cures your target of negative effects, and also rezzes your target if he's dead. I don't want to have the game do all my playing for me.

I'm fine with condensing some skills into 1 button when it comes to melee style chains where you have to pull off style 1 in order to complete style 2 in order to do style 3, but give me some options for what spells to cast on a healer or caster with different benefits and drawbacks and let me decide which one is appropriate in a certain situation. This is a PC MMO not a console FPS. You shouldn't be able to slam your head against the keyboard and be successful.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/31/13 6:48:37 AM#77

The UI  might be part of the "action'" but it can distract and be a nuisance in terms of immersion and watching the actual game itself.

 

I think an mmorpg can still have depth without resorting to hotbars galore.

 

Heck I think the control/combat system mechanic sin geranal can be changed and shaken up.

 

There ar ea TON of different ways to mechanically have combat work, hotkeys tied to your number sor whatever, or tying skills more to gameplay actions and on-the-fly controlls.

 

For exxample, we already know mages will have to be "rooted"  in place while casting and aren't going to be the running around throwing magic kind.

So instead of having magic cast via hotkeys/action bars, why not tie it more to the controls at and and make it mor eversatile?

 

An example, lets say (since you have to be still to cast) why not allow the mouse button to be clicked and held (or toggle) to put your mage into a "casting" state. Now while in this stae you can still aim around , target  people, etc. However while you are holding your mouse button in this "casting" state your entire keyboard opens up to be spell cast. W/s/a/d and all those keys normaly "reserved" for moving can be used to both, move, and for combat, with that kind of system.

 

If you want to move/exist this, just let go of the button (or click it again to toggle).

With those kind of controls you could easily buidl up magic spells that can be cast more quickly (because of the nature of finger placement) and alos open it up to trying new systems. What if simple spells are just a simple quick button press?

 

Say for example as a mage you want to cast a average "fireball." It's an easy spell to learn and you simply hold your mouse button an dthen click w to fire it off.  You want to do a air-based spell that knocks people back? You push your e key and bam, it does it.

 

Now lets say you ant to cast an "inferno" which ic bascially fire with wind. So what do you do? Instead of just casting with the w or e key, you combine them, and cast both, and thus you get the inferno spell instead of the other ones.

 

That kind of control scheme can have both more depth thent he normal hotkeys, it won't take up nearly as much space, plus it provides more "feeling" behind the controls and quicker access to casting then normal hotkeys/numbers.

 

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

3/31/13 7:26:40 AM#78
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by belatucadros
Go ahead and condense down to 4 abilities then. If it is that easy. Also, why does x number of skills take your eyes off the battle? I'm not following.

You don't get how having a lot of hotbars taking up screenspace and looking them for CD's, etc takes your view off the battlefield/game?

This:

http://www.nvnews.net/previews/geforce_6800_gs/images/guild_wars_1.jpg

vs:

http://oi55.tinypic.com/jgmumx.jpg

or heaven forbid:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2008/04/mak_analysispt1_large.jpg

 

I'd much rather watch the game, have as little screenspace as needed taken up by a skillbar and intead be able to ues muscle memory controls with my hands then hotkey  hotkey hotkey.

 

A lot of "skills/abilities" in mmo's can be condensed down into part of normal control functions and abilities.

 

Those UIs are garbage. Horrible UX. Whoever set those bars up is a monkey smashing a keyboard. 

DAOC's entire UI was hidable, if that made you happy. WAR let you do segments. 

 

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

3/31/13 7:40:46 AM#79
Also you may want to read up on daocs qbind system. You're adding complexity that isn't needed

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  AdeptusArbitrator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/18/13
Posts: 35

3/31/13 7:44:46 AM#80
I think its fair to say nobody likes clutter. I realise I'm liable to be hung from a tree or flogged for this, but I do rather enjoy TSW's basic "huge pool of abilities, but you can only use six actives". 

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