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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Combat Pacing and Time to Kill: Prime Importance in PvP/RvR

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33 posts found
  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2085

joie de vivre

3/28/13 3:17:42 PM#21

I like battles not muggings. I hope the fights are a slower pace where you have a chance for some momentum swings. EVE was notorious for "hey its....dead". Naturally I was a hyber newb with a garbage ship, but it would have been cool to have a second to at least attempt firing back or popping a shield.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Rawc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 2

3/28/13 3:24:47 PM#22
DaoC TTK is fine IMHO and the main issue with WAR TTK was less about DPS as it was healing was too high and consistant. Group heals were much too cheap to cast and it was very difficult to disrupt a Doc/warrior priest. I will be curious to see if unchained will bring back hard disrupts or leave it behind as every other game has done. I believe hard disrupts were what made DaoC spell casting so unique and why you could make spell casters hit so hard but have them not be OP. I wouldn't mind seeing it return.
  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/28/13 3:29:07 PM#23
Originally posted by morfidon
Originally posted by meddyck

If CU's pace and TTK are similar to DAOC, then I'd be very happy.

I don't like really long TTK like some recent MMOs have. There needs to be some urgency to combat. You need to fear dying if you or your group don't play well. Your healer needs to have to react quickly to heal you. Fights need to end quickly enough that it is possible to have a 1v1 or group vs group fight without other players adding in being a certainty. A tank needs to die if a caster starts nuking him from max range and he gets no heals. A caster needs to die if he gets assist trained and gets no heals but not so quickly that his healer or group has no chance of saving him.

so basically like in daoc.

We just have to avoid things like in WAR: caster in front of zerg having healers behind killing everything. 4 tanks on a healer who is keeping up entire group spamming grp heals / HoT's.

Hopefully with interrupts this will be less common. 

I really enjoyed the pace and TTK in DAOC.  I've never played a more enjoyable PVP experience.

  Zintair

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 63

3/28/13 3:44:13 PM#24
Originally posted by Rawc
DaoC TTK is fine IMHO and the main issue with WAR TTK was less about DPS as it was healing was too high and consistant. Group heals were much too cheap to cast and it was very difficult to disrupt a Doc/warrior priest. I will be curious to see if unchained will bring back hard disrupts or leave it behind as every other game has done. I believe hard disrupts were what made DaoC spell casting so unique and why you could make spell casters hit so hard but have them not be OP. I wouldn't mind seeing it return.

THIS

 

Warhammer had 2 major issues with the combat.

1) AoE spells were FAR to beneficial and viable compared to their single target spells healing + DPS. A Warrior priest could sit and spam his AoE heal abilitiy if they were in the thick of a fight and being attacked.  This is broken.

2) Too many instant cast abilities.  BW's i'm looking at you. EDIT: also instant cast abilities which can proc other abilities... broken. Scorch for example.

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 3:49:48 PM#25
Originally posted by Zintair
Originally posted by Rawc
DaoC TTK is fine IMHO and the main issue with WAR TTK was less about DPS as it was healing was too high and consistant. Group heals were much too cheap to cast and it was very difficult to disrupt a Doc/warrior priest. I will be curious to see if unchained will bring back hard disrupts or leave it behind as every other game has done. I believe hard disrupts were what made DaoC spell casting so unique and why you could make spell casters hit so hard but have them not be OP. I wouldn't mind seeing it return.

THIS

 

Warhammer had 2 major issues with the combat.

1) AoE spells were FAR to beneficial and viable compared to their single target spells healing + DPS. A Warrior priest could sit and spam his AoE heal abilitiy if they were in the thick of a fight and being attacked.  This is broken.

2) Too many instant cast abilities.  BW's i'm looking at you. EDIT: also instant cast abilities which can proc other abilities... broken. Scorch for example.

True it was too easy to heal in warhammer, it's because of almost not being able to interrupt + grp heals were more worth then single heals. Grp heals in WAR should be like 40% worse then now and single heals should be like 20% better and this game would be pretty good.

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

3/28/13 3:50:56 PM#26
I thought AOe spells were fine after they retuned it halfway through release (POS/ROF 2s exclusive debuff, etc).  Early on it was pretty bad though.  Same with instant cast abilities in general (although WAR had a *few* too many, but not by much).
  Zintair

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 63

3/28/13 3:57:48 PM#27
Originally posted by EasymodeX
I thought AOe spells were fine after they retuned it halfway through release (POS/ROF 2s exclusive debuff, etc).  Early on it was pretty bad though.  Same with instant cast abilities in general (although WAR had a *few* too many, but not by much).

Its interesting though.  Some of WARs mechanics I hated such as those I listed but the various Knockback distances I loved.

MY BG based on my HATE could knock a target WAY out of range causing quite a healing range issue.

Also the heal debuff was was great and made my class super viable when it came to group on group encounters.

  Lawtoween

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 104

3/28/13 4:27:48 PM#28

I would love to see a combat mechanic that made it so that each time you were hit in a single battle you took more damage than the last hit of comparable attack damage.  That way the first few hits would be unlikely to kill you, but as the battle dragged on you would be more and more likely to die from a coordinated series of strikes, or one big nuke.  Everyone would have enough hit points to survive a few hits of even the most powerful nukes up front, but if they had been hit by even some weak AE a few times first and then that nuke, one could do them in.  It would make sure no battles were over before one side knew they were under attack, without removing the advantage of surprise, since the attacking side would get their tags in first.  The main effect would be that a battle would not be over before it started.

Lawtoween

  Sornin

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 1138

Too weird to live, and too rare to die

 
OP  3/28/13 10:25:40 PM#29
Originally posted by Lawtoween

I would love to see a combat mechanic that made it so that each time you were hit in a single battle you took more damage than the last hit of comparable attack damage.  That way the first few hits would be unlikely to kill you, but as the battle dragged on you would be more and more likely to die from a coordinated series of strikes, or one big nuke.  Everyone would have enough hit points to survive a few hits of even the most powerful nukes up front, but if they had been hit by even some weak AE a few times first and then that nuke, one could do them in.  It would make sure no battles were over before one side knew they were under attack, without removing the advantage of surprise, since the attacking side would get their tags in first.  The main effect would be that a battle would not be over before it started.

Lawtoween

A rather interesting idea! However, one potential flaw: it vastly favours the side with more numbers, giving them an even greater advantage than their numbers alone would.

Greater numbers means a greater number of attacks means a faster ramp up of damage. Rather than a linear relationship between the number of combatants and damage, it would now be an exponential relationship, which is bad, in my opinion.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/28/13 11:33:20 PM#30
Did someone just say healers in daoc wernt needed? Bgs or not.... I don't even know what to say
Druids / clerics / healers made up 25-37% of every group with a brain and that's not including shaman, wardens etc
I fear too many people will be giving advise on this game with clear lack if any kind of knowledge of what they are talking about

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  evil13

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 359

3/29/13 12:31:26 AM#31

The thing about daoc's combat is damage was always coming at a certain pace. Think of a melee 8-man with say 5 melee assist train on some poor cleric, they could not swing faster than 1.5seconds (hard cap) and if they were using 2h weapons without celerity it could be even slower 9way slower back in the day before buff bots and toa level gear)

This slower, timed pace of incoming damage allowed not only healers to time their heals, but also the use of abilities and peels.

Now look at a game like wow (or any recent mmo with a ton of high damage insta cast abilities for both ranged and melee) Look at warriors in wow, the normal damage was pretty low, but at any time you could burst with 3-4 high damage skills all coming in a spam of a few seconds with really no build up (you need rage, but there is no way to tell that it's coming other than you haven't burst in a while)

Combine this unpredictable, very high burst damage spikes with wow's totally out of whack damage to hp ratio and wow's pvp gets beyond annoying as it becomes a contest to see who can time their burst better and kill the other guys before they can kill you while avoiding their burst nullifying abilities. Also, the fact that wow's pvp is 3v3 or 5v5 and BGs hardly matter due to too big gear difference and class distribution doesn't really help.

 

Daoc's pvp was about positioning, target selection, and general tactics (extend groups vs melee groups for instance) wow's pvp is about timing abilities and killing the other guy in a span of a few seconds when his anti burst skills were down.

  CExy

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 26

3/29/13 7:20:59 AM#32
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Did someone just say healers in daoc wernt needed? Bgs or not.... I don't even know what to say
Druids / clerics / healers made up 25-37% of every group with a brain and that's not including shaman, wardens etc
I fear too many people will be giving advise on this game with clear lack if any kind of knowledge of what they are talking about

QFT, although I think with group only buffs the popularity of non buff bot shams would have been higher!

As for TTK, I think CU should give you the option to build ULTRA glasscanon so when focused you die faster than a sitting caster ;)  On the otherhand there should be the option to build super tanky and deal relatively no damage (oops LoL bruiser powercreep in S2).

TTK has so many variables that the foundations of combat/stats/gear need to be properly defined first. A huge problem with most MMOs is new item introduction (expansions/new raids etc)  in which either DPS grows harder or Defense does. Balancing on numbers actually nerfs pure classes and buffs hybrids... Think about it ;)

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

3/29/13 8:42:56 AM#33
Originally posted by Zintair

MY BG based on my HATE could knock a target WAY out of range causing quite a healing range issue.

Also the heal debuff was was great and made my class super viable when it came to group on group encounters.

Yeah, I had a BG and Eternal Citadel was the best Scenario ever.  Unless I wasn't playing my BG.

 

Side discussion: I think one emerging issue with "TTK" and combat flow in recent MMORPGs has to do with all the teleport / leap / blink / dash abilities that all melee classes seem to have.  In DAOC and WAR, melee classes had to run to their targets for the most part (WL leap aside).  This gave a lot of emphasis on positioning and mobility -- e.g. real fight strategy.  Current MMORPGs seem to want to ignore positioning by letting players teleport all over the battlefield.  This removes positional play and forces players into a narrow leg-hump DPS x Defense situation, which makes the combat pretty damn lame / boring.

Personally, I much preferred DAOC or WAR where good play and teamwork often had the singular result of "actually" engaging or disengaging from a fight.

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