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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Foundational Principle #13 – Chaos Goes Boing!

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66 posts found
  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/28/13 4:20:14 PM#21

I freaking love the Myth series, my favorite RTS series out there, shame they stopped after 3 and I don't even know who holds the rights now since the series went from Bungie to Mumbo Jumbo then they ended up folding.

 

I played Myth II online so much, there was always from time to time certain things that ould backfire on you, sometimes your own actions (like in that video posted) sometimes the random elements working against you (Molativ cocktails had a chanc eto go out before exploding, and Rain/snow made this greater, worked the same with fire arrows).

However it all added up to make fighting a lot more fun and exciting. When a plan came together and you watched yourself win it was glorious, but when something ifunny happened, or things backfired, it never felt like you were "cheated" by the game (even if a stratiegic molativ went out without causing yur master setup of satchels not to explode) it just made you have to think more quickly on your feet and hav a backup plan.

 

i'm wondering CU how far th ephyiscs might go. I can imagine for example a siege engine hitting a castle wall an dthe troops standing inside the walls sitting there waiting for them to break in and the wall just randomly squashes some guy standing in a whole group of enemies and they all laugh at their friends misfortune.

  User Deleted
3/28/13 4:34:37 PM#22
Originally posted by Stiler

I freaking love the Myth series, my favorite RTS series out there, shame they stopped after 3 and I don't eve know who holds the rights now sinc ehte series went from Bungie to Mumbo Jumbo then they ended up folding.

 

I played Myth II online so much, there was always from time to time certain things that ould backfire on you, sometimes your own actions (like in that video posted) sometimes the random elements working against you (Molativ cocktails had a chanc eto go out before exploding, and Rain/snow made this greater, worked the same with fire arrows).

However it all added up to make fighting a lot more fun and exciting. When a plan came together and you watched yourself win it was glorious, but when something ifunny happened, or things backfired, it never felt like you were "cheated" by the game (even if a stratiegic molativ went out without causing yur master setup of satchels not to explode) it just made you have to think more quickly on your feet and hav a backup plan.

 

i'm wondering CU how far th ephyiscs might go. I can imagine for example a siege engine hitting a castle wall an dthe troops standing inside the walls sitting there waiting for them to break in and the wall just randomly squashes some guy standing in a whole group of enemies and they all laugh at their friends misfortune.

Yeah like those stupid satchel charges XD

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/28/13 4:38:09 PM#23
Originally posted by sweetdigs
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Really hope the stepping in front of fireballs gets you smacked in the face isn't as perscribed so much, thats not chaos like he's describing in words... in a 100v100 battle thats a fcking disaster of shit

I dunno about it. The walls falling on people sounds like a good idea, but hope they are weary how far they take it because it will turn annoying very fast.

Why is that a disaster?  Sound awesome to me.  Allows tanks to tank by virtue of standing in front of other characters rather than some silly mechanic or ability that makes far less sense.  You can set up walls of tanks.  Get a nice phalanx going.

Of course, enemy casters could rain down AE spells in the middle of that phalanx, and archers could fire over the front line of the phalanx if physics was accurate.

Not sure why you think that would be annoying.

You can have all of what you said without people stepping infront to take a hit, seems like collision detection for spells to me, going to guess that will get massively hard to code and flow well in a massive battle, especially in their current budget format... believe its over stepping their bounds of reality, but prove me wrong.

Not a fan of Collision detection, and don't see it as an effective fun rvr system. But to each their own, either they make it work properly ( doubt it ), or they scrap it, Or they fail again.

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  RealLifeGobbo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 218

3/28/13 4:43:44 PM#24


Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by sweetdigs

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Really hope the stepping in front of fireballs gets you smacked in the face isn't as perscribed so much, thats not chaos like he's describing in words... in a 100v100 battle thats a fcking disaster of shit I dunno about it. The walls falling on people sounds like a good idea, but hope they are weary how far they take it because it will turn annoying very fast.
Why is that a disaster?  Sound awesome to me.  Allows tanks to tank by virtue of standing in front of other characters rather than some silly mechanic or ability that makes far less sense.  You can set up walls of tanks.  Get a nice phalanx going. Of course, enemy casters could rain down AE spells in the middle of that phalanx, and archers could fire over the front line of the phalanx if physics was accurate. Not sure why you think that would be annoying.
You can have all of what you said without people stepping infront to take a hit, seems like collision detection for spells to me, going to guess that will get massively hard to code and flow well in a massive battle, especially in their current budget format... believe its over stepping their bounds of reality, but prove me wrong.

Not a fan of Collision detection, and don't see it as an effective fun rvr system. But to each their own, either they make it work properly ( doubt it ), or they scrap it, Or they fail again.
 


IMHO, collision detection is imperative. It provides you with better, so you can do proper a Tank Wall, keeping your squishy healers and casters safe. Without it, people can run right through you and charge them. This is one thing that made WAR awesome. The only thing I am worried about, is server(s) ability tracking all the coordinates and what not for everything going off. Grant it, PvE is out of the picture, so it doesn't need to worry about tracking the movement of mobs.

Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/28/13 5:15:42 PM#25
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by sweetdigs

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Really hope the stepping in front of fireballs gets you smacked in the face isn't as perscribed so much, thats not chaos like he's describing in words... in a 100v100 battle thats a fcking disaster of shit I dunno about it. The walls falling on people sounds like a good idea, but hope they are weary how far they take it because it will turn annoying very fast.
Why is that a disaster?  Sound awesome to me.  Allows tanks to tank by virtue of standing in front of other characters rather than some silly mechanic or ability that makes far less sense.  You can set up walls of tanks.  Get a nice phalanx going. Of course, enemy casters could rain down AE spells in the middle of that phalanx, and archers could fire over the front line of the phalanx if physics was accurate. Not sure why you think that would be annoying.
You can have all of what you said without people stepping infront to take a hit, seems like collision detection for spells to me, going to guess that will get massively hard to code and flow well in a massive battle, especially in their current budget format... believe its over stepping their bounds of reality, but prove me wrong.

 

Not a fan of Collision detection, and don't see it as an effective fun rvr system. But to each their own, either they make it work properly ( doubt it ), or they scrap it, Or they fail again.
 


 

IMHO, collision detection is imperative. It provides you with better, so you can do proper a Tank Wall, keeping your squishy healers and casters safe. Without it, people can run right through you and charge them. This is one thing that made WAR awesome. The only thing I am worried about, is server(s) ability tracking all the coordinates and what not for everything going off. Grant it, PvE is out of the picture, so it doesn't need to worry about tracking the movement of mobs.

WAR being awesome is an opinion and not a reason to defend CD. I could simply say I believe DAOC was awesome because it didn't have CD.

If people think "running through" and getting back stuns / snares etc. off was bad in DAOC, this mechanic he's describing is going to be a whole lot worse. when you think you're one place and you get hit by a fireball in another place its going to turn "chaos" into "wtf this games dumb"

You're glowing edorsement for WAR seems to have me questioning all your posts.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  RealLifeGobbo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 218

3/28/13 5:20:52 PM#26


Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo  

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by sweetdigs

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Really hope the stepping in front of fireballs gets you smacked in the face isn't as perscribed so much, thats not chaos like he's describing in words... in a 100v100 battle thats a fcking disaster of shit I dunno about it. The walls falling on people sounds like a good idea, but hope they are weary how far they take it because it will turn annoying very fast.
Why is that a disaster?  Sound awesome to me.  Allows tanks to tank by virtue of standing in front of other characters rather than some silly mechanic or ability that makes far less sense.  You can set up walls of tanks.  Get a nice phalanx going. Of course, enemy casters could rain down AE spells in the middle of that phalanx, and archers could fire over the front line of the phalanx if physics was accurate. Not sure why you think that would be annoying.
You can have all of what you said without people stepping infront to take a hit, seems like collision detection for spells to me, going to guess that will get massively hard to code and flow well in a massive battle, especially in their current budget format... believe its over stepping their bounds of reality, but prove me wrong.   Not a fan of Collision detection, and don't see it as an effective fun rvr system. But to each their own, either they make it work properly ( doubt it ), or they scrap it, Or they fail again.  
  IMHO, collision detection is imperative. It provides you with better, so you can do proper a Tank Wall, keeping your squishy healers and casters safe. Without it, people can run right through you and charge them. This is one thing that made WAR awesome. The only thing I am worried about, is server(s) ability tracking all the coordinates and what not for everything going off. Grant it, PvE is out of the picture, so it doesn't need to worry about tracking the movement of mobs.
WAR being awesome is an opinion and not a reason to defend CD. I could simply say I believe DAOC was awesome because it didn't have CD.

If people think "running through" and getting back stuns / snares etc. off was bad in DAOC, this mechanic he's describing is going to be a whole lot worse. when you think you're one place and you get hit by a fireball in another place its going to turn "chaos" into "wtf this games dumb"

You're glowing edorsement for WAR seems to have me questioning all your posts.


I am not saying WAR was the best thing ever, but it did have some novel ideas. DAoC is still my favorite MMO I have played and have gone back to it several times. And to question what I say by one post, seems a bit extreme.

Aspiring Game Musician <<>> Inquiring ears, feel free to visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/vagarylabs

  Zintair

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 63

3/28/13 5:42:26 PM#27

I'm with Niix on this.  It's just TOO ambitious.  Lets be humble in our goals and achieve what we came here to achieve.  Getting lost in something like this is just like putting all your eggs on graphics.  I don't think it's important enough and has already proven it is not necessary.

 

EDIT: Player collision detection is very different from the proposed physics setup of a real active in game world with true projectiles and walls.  I wouldn't be against player collision detection but running in front of fireballs to block them isn't that.

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/28/13 6:43:56 PM#28
Originally posted by Zintair

I'm with Niix on this.  It's just TOO ambitious.  Lets be humble in our goals and achieve what we came here to achieve.  Getting lost in something like this is just like putting all your eggs on graphics.  I don't think it's important enough and has already proven it is not necessary.

 

EDIT: Player collision detection is very different from the proposed physics setup of a real active in game world with true projectiles and walls.  I wouldn't be against player collision detection but running in front of fireballs to block them isn't that.

 

How's it like putting your eggs into one basket like graphics?

 

Graphics are fluff, this impacts GAMEPLAY and how it plays, which to me is a vital part of what will end up making this game work in the long run or not.

 

Seeing a fireball hurling toward your ally, who's low health and knowning they will die if it hits them,a nd being able to jump in front of it to save them is far more rewarding, gameplay wise, then most other things when it comes to "tanking" or such (plus this allows non-tanks to even do this).

 

I play league of legends quit ea bit and this kind of thing is in there and it opens up so much more ptential and "WTF/OMG I CAN'T BELEIVE THAT HAPPENED" moments, where you can pull off some crazy things.

There's so much that can be done these days that wasn't done back then in terms of combat mechanics, being able to help allies in various ways or hurt your enemies that hopefully CU does some things new/different form DAOC.

I know many peopel here loved DAOC and are looking forward to CU for that reason, but I think tkhere's room for them to do newer things and provide evolutions on it's content that wasn't done/able to be done back in those days.

  gylnne

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/07
Posts: 324

3/28/13 6:48:40 PM#29
Originally posted by Stiler
 

 


Seeing a fireball hurling toward your ally, who's low health and knowning they will die if it hits them,a nd being able to jump in front of it to save them is far more rewarding, gameplay wise, then most other things when it comes to "tanking" or such (plus this allows non-tanks to even do this).

 

Agree with this. I can just see your group healer thinking that a heal would not be enough to save you so they throw themselves in front of the fireball to save the tank.:)

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/28/13 7:14:03 PM#30
If you think projectiles being body blocked is awesome might i suggest gw2 as a reference as to how terrible it is =p This is starting to sound like another terrible hybrid between action and tab targeting.
  Zintair

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 63

3/28/13 7:22:00 PM#31

It's putting all your eggs in one basket because you are pushing a fluff feature.  A fluff feature that is the BACKBONE of the entire game.  If you can't get the combat mechanics to be bug free and stable with the ability to operate with many people in the area, how are we to expect class balance?  You don't need complete physical control of your game world to make the game epic. 

Too many MMOs eyes were bigger than their stomach or their design philosophy was flawed and avoidable if they had done their history lessons.

  Sensai

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 92

3/28/13 7:59:40 PM#32
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by sweetdigs

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek Really hope the stepping in front of fireballs gets you smacked in the face isn't as perscribed so much, thats not chaos like he's describing in words... in a 100v100 battle thats a fcking disaster of shit I dunno about it. The walls falling on people sounds like a good idea, but hope they are weary how far they take it because it will turn annoying very fast.
Why is that a disaster?  Sound awesome to me.  Allows tanks to tank by virtue of standing in front of other characters rather than some silly mechanic or ability that makes far less sense.  You can set up walls of tanks.  Get a nice phalanx going. Of course, enemy casters could rain down AE spells in the middle of that phalanx, and archers could fire over the front line of the phalanx if physics was accurate. Not sure why you think that would be annoying.
You can have all of what you said without people stepping infront to take a hit, seems like collision detection for spells to me, going to guess that will get massively hard to code and flow well in a massive battle, especially in their current budget format... believe its over stepping their bounds of reality, but prove me wrong.

 

Not a fan of Collision detection, and don't see it as an effective fun rvr system. But to each their own, either they make it work properly ( doubt it ), or they scrap it, Or they fail again.
 


 

IMHO, collision detection is imperative. It provides you with better, so you can do proper a Tank Wall, keeping your squishy healers and casters safe. Without it, people can run right through you and charge them. This is one thing that made WAR awesome. The only thing I am worried about, is server(s) ability tracking all the coordinates and what not for everything going off. Grant it, PvE is out of the picture, so it doesn't need to worry about tracking the movement of mobs.

^ That.  WAR had lots of problems, but lining up Ironbreakers right before the door came down and working in concert (somewhat) to physically prevent access was a fantastic feature imo.  Collision detection is not always  a good thing, but I definitely think this was a great use of it.  It also serves the additional function of a crowd control/population balance mechanism for a minor cost.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/28/13 11:10:44 PM#33
I didn't just use one post to form that opinion gobbo, just FYI.
I don't understand why people think a tank wall is make it or break it for big world pvp, maybe WAR turned into a lets just trade keeps fest because it wasn't fun fighting a tank wall all night? Maybe just maybe you don't need a "tank" in this game?! Maybe just a heavy melee? Doesn't have to be trapped forcing usefulness of a shield class into the combat mechanics of a game.
You may say it brings tactics, but I disagree I believe it removes just as many tactics as it may bring... See any game where you either fought face to face or one group rushed healers in back, this game shouldn't be easy why make it easy being able to hide behind people?

I think they will drop cd even it they attempt to implement thus I view it as a waste of resources.
Gotta keep your flashy mechanics in check and make sure they are fun and not just "more real" or "cool" those things can get boring and have ruined other games

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  evil13

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 359

3/29/13 1:08:36 AM#34

Collission detection for spells/ranged is too much for this game (or any mmo at this point) in a large battle with lots of people, the extra power needed to calculate and keep track of of everyone's position and the flying fireballs positions plus keeping everyone else in sync and not lagging.. yea, not going to work.

 

Physics for keeps though sound great and should be easy to implement (think of a falling wall as "oil" in daoc's keeps, just with the graphic of a falling wall instead of oil)

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/29/13 2:04:54 AM#35
Originally posted by evil13

Collission detection for spells/ranged is too much for this game (or any mmo at this point) in a large battle with lots of people, the extra power needed to calculate and keep track of of everyone's position and the flying fireballs positions plus keeping everyone else in sync and not lagging.. yea, not going to work.

 

Physics for keeps though sound great and should be easy to implement (think of a falling wall as "oil" in daoc's keeps, just with the graphic of a falling wall instead of oil)

 

Works in planetside 2, worked in WWIIonline ove ra decade ago, Workedin Asherons call (you could dodge mage fireballs by strafing, and mage fights could be quite hectic because of this).

You make it sound like you can only do tab-target and have homing-missles, many mmo's have have some form of AOE's and other location-based effects that work in a similar way, having to tell everyone "there's aoe here" and sending that info to other people.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

3/29/13 5:46:51 AM#36
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by evil13

...

 

Works in planetside 2, worked in WWIIonline ove ra decade ago, Workedin Asherons call (you could dodge mage fireballs by strafing, and mage fights could be quite hectic because of this).

You make it sound like you can only do tab-target and have homing-missles, many mmo's have have some form of AOE's and other location-based effects that work in a similar way, having to tell everyone "there's aoe here" and sending that info to other people.

That's right. You don't need collision detection for a fire ball, just make an AoE that goes in a straight line and does more damage to the first target then less and less with more targets. It means you can avoid the spell by walking off the tracks, but if the caster get to change the direction (before or even after the spell is launched, with the appropriate skill) in function of the enemy movement it'll make it harder.

  Zintair

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 63

3/29/13 6:59:48 AM#37
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by evil13

Collission detection for spells/ranged is too much for this game (or any mmo at this point) in a large battle with lots of people, the extra power needed to calculate and keep track of of everyone's position and the flying fireballs positions plus keeping everyone else in sync and not lagging.. yea, not going to work.

 

Physics for keeps though sound great and should be easy to implement (think of a falling wall as "oil" in daoc's keeps, just with the graphic of a falling wall instead of oil)

 

Works in planetside 2, worked in WWIIonline ove ra decade ago, Workedin Asherons call (you could dodge mage fireballs by strafing, and mage fights could be quite hectic because of this).

You make it sound like you can only do tab-target and have homing-missles, many mmo's have have some form of AOE's and other location-based effects that work in a similar way, having to tell everyone "there's aoe here" and sending that info to other people.

Define works... I played Planetside 2... it was awful.  I;ve never heard of WWII online and Asheron's Call I was pretty young and played an 80 OG mage.  I killed things with life drains behind walls lol.

@Niix - I still want their to be a shield class in the game.  Those are the classes I usually start off with playing.  I really enjoy having the Guard mechanic and Hold the Line in Warhammer was really neat when a few tanks lined up.  I have yet to see a game allow for improvement in those areas.  Instead of spending points on your sword or magic you can place points in improved Guard and hold the line giving another 5% - 10% benefit etc.  Customization of playstyle based off your abilties would be much more interesting then trying to do something as grand as create a physically interactive world.

The key is that every class should have some sort of role or responsibility in each scenario.  Mages usually are the ones that get to shine on Keep sieges leaving the meat shields to bang on the door.   Not too epic.  But if there were abilities and other things these heavy armored players could be doing it would make things much more interesting.

 

 

  Stiler

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/29/13 7:05:21 AM#38

Works as in the game works, it functions, you can play it.

 

Hell I played WIIonline and Asherons Call on my 56k modem and enjoyed them.

In this day and age with broadband It hink a fireball being able be fired and atually have to aim it and people being able to dodge it or someone stepping in front of it can be done, even better/more precise then back then.

  binskki

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/13
Posts: 154

"I just die so fast it's hard to position myself. :)"

3/29/13 7:16:14 AM#39

"Physics" in games does make them a lot more interesting. - and he is absolutely right in FP #13, it does create stories to tell that game designers couldn't possibly have invented.

My first time out in RvR (as a lowbie  lurikeen ranger with capped woodworking ability, brought along by my guild solely to upgrade keep doors), I died in a mass of screen freeze as the doors opened and the zerg came up the hill to defend  - and wound up wedged under open keep door with none of our healers able to get  LOS on me for a res?  LOL.  I took grief about that for the next couple of years from friends and guildies - kind of defined the personality of that whole ranger toon.  I remember that it was intensely frustrating at the time, but I still laugh about it with my two best buds - and it happened in 2002! 

Now that's lasting entertainment value. :)

  Vymm

Novice Member

Joined: 10/27/07
Posts: 113

"Spray paint the world" - Rerak. Quote regarding the waste of time of AOE DPS without kills.

3/29/13 9:20:12 AM#40

Originally posted by Raagnarz
Another spot on FP. He is so right too about games no longer having moments or stories to share that you can talk about all night. UO, EQ, DAOC, and Shadowbane were the only games I could ever do that with to this day. Everything since has been a hand held boring turd.

 

I can tell you an infinite amount of stories from games from the past, yet so few of the current ones in the market that I have played.  It's sad, but true that the depth of immersion was so different in the MMOs of yester-year.  I think one of my favorite hair pulling moments (random I know) was logging into eq2 for the first week or so .. leveling and taking EXP hits everytime a groupmate died.  Hell, half of the people werent even WITH the group when they died and we all took hits.  Sucked at the time, but funny to recant now.

 

Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by Xobdnas
Shut Up and Take My Money!

 

RealLifeGobbo throws money at his computer screen.

 

I am glad he isnt the only one throwing money.  My computer is taking some real heat from the nickels, dimes and quarters though.

 

Originally posted by Ellya

Haha! Physics! Better keep away from those keep doors when they come crashing down then... :D

"Noggin was killed by a keep door"

"Knut was killed by a keep door"

"Frazzle was killed by a keep door"

"Freddie was killed by a keep door"

"Batharin was killed by a keep door"

" You were killed by a keep door"

 

I lol'd at this one for sure ... goes to show that people should be paying attention and not mindlessly smashing.  Bring this idea back.

 

Originally posted by Maric
Hoping this Kickstarter goes live Friday morning.

 

I do as well.  I checked like 50 times today so far, but nothing.  Take my COINZ!

 

Vymm

 

 

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