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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » ONLY 4 or 5 classes on release! Say it isn't so........

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107 posts found
  red_cruiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 444

3/29/13 3:05:17 AM#81

Main Tank, Main Healer, Ranged Damage Physical, Physical Damage Melee, Ranged Damage Magic.

Pretty sure they aren't going to be reinventing the wheel, here. They'll probably have variations of the classes to allow the tank more damage or the main healer some type of offense; but these are what we are most likely going to see.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/29/13 3:24:07 AM#82
Originally posted by RealLifeGobbo

 


Originally posted by naezgul

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek If they are going to make 4-5 that you can spec to 12-14 Why the hell not make the classes like daoc an make 12 classes? People enjoy having a different class not just two warriors specced different ways Look at most classes in daoc, even though you had three spec lines there was little difference between classes, usually just damage type ( for most part )
This!,

 

people give the argument for or five classes ar fine, IF....NOW THIS IS A BIG IF, they actually have 3-5 sub classes per class.

I think people are justifying having so few lasses with what they really want.....A DOZEN CLASSES!

If you believe this is Marks plan, what are the new lasses he is going to add?

everything falls under castr, melee, healer, stealth, crafter


 

I agree with both of you. With DAoC, most of the spells and abilities were similar across the 3 realms, but a little different. e.g. Alb Clerics had Healing, Buffs, and Smites while Mid Healers had Healing, Buffs, and CCs. Not to mention as Nixx_Ozek pointed out, most of the other classes were same spec lines and I personally like having 2 different classes instead of being able to spec it 2 different ways like SW:TOR.

@naezgul

 

He won't have to add classes. He can have 4 base classes per realm (Melee, Healer, Sneak, Caster - all with different names in the three realms) and figure out a finite number of abilities every realm needs to have (Endo regen, Power regen, Heals, Buffs, Debuffs, Etc.) and then take those abilities, divide them into smaller groupins (maybe even duplicating some of the abilities but keeping the duplication even across each realm like we saw in Daoc with multiple classes having mez,power regen, heals, etc.),  and then assign the smaller groups to different classes across each realm creating unmirrored classes. Thus you end up with 4 base classes per realm but endurance regen comes from a melee when playing Aurthurians, a Healer when playing Vikings, and a Mage when playing a TDD. You can further differ the classes by offering modified versions of the same abilities across the realms. Again perhaps Healers fighting for Aurhtur use a direct healing method, while vikings use heal over time mehtods and TDDs use a mix of both? Just examples but it hopefully illustrates what I'm trying to explain. You could also do it with melee attacks much like that of how Thanes in Daoc had DDs added to their styles while other classes had other things. Look closely at foundation principle #4 and tell me what kind of system you feel he is describing.

 

@RealLifeGobbo

 

The classes in SWTOR were mirrored. They all had the same abilities their opposite had. Yes, in some cases there were minor differences but a Bounty Hunter could do everything a Tropper could do. It's been stated by MJ mirrored classes won't happen. I'd also refer you toward Foundation Principle #4 as Mark describes he wants choice to play a big role in this game. Maybe that means picking subclasses maybe it doesn't. Personally I think having a base class choice followed by picking what abilities you want to have access to (picking one might restrict others) creates much more choice for the player.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/29/13 4:30:45 AM#83

Another thing to consider is that it's not just the classes themselves, which we are told will all be very distinct, that matter, but the context in which  they operate in actual gameplay. With this being (potentially) such a dynamic, player-driven RvR environment, affected by crafting and resources as well as who-the-hell-knows what CSE is dreaming up, classes could conceivably by a lot more versatile than any character planner could suggest. A lot of this comes down to vision, because as a RvR game, there isn't going to be any other focus.

Of course, it could just be the Battlegrounds on a low budget and a big, shiny "Thanks For Coming" sign on it, but i somehow doubt that.

More on topic: I am, again, fine with five classes per realm (I am really thinking this is going to be the number) as long as they are A) distinct, B) balanced (not in a mirrored way, but in a "hey we playested the shit out of this and it's fun" way) and C) offer a range of specializations that facilitate different playstyles within the overall concept for each class.

I am pretty sure MJ has already addressed all of these (albeit in the context of a zygote stage of development) so I am fine with that.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/29/13 7:07:30 AM#84

Quotes from Mark Jacobs:

"As to the other three classes, they are the expected HT, one tank, one healer and one damage dealer but that's only part of the story. Assuming we fund, I want to use the next two years to do something interesting with each one of the core classes. I've got some interesting thoughts on the healer and dps but nothing special has lept to mind yet on the pure tank. The key is that once we've freed ourselves from having to worry about PvE, where can we go with each class to make them fun and interesting to play? This is one of the reasons I'm not doing what I did with Dark Age and planning to have more classes than EQ1 had when we launched. This time, I'd rather have 4 or 5 great classes per realm at launch and then slowly add new ones. If we can create and balance more classes during development, cool but if not, well, that's fine too. The key is I want to work with not only the team here but also hear what other people have to say because frankly, I'm not smart enough to think of every cool possibility but I am smart enough to not even try to do that. The same applies to the stealthers of course. We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)"

"My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes."

 

these sure don't make me believe he is going to be making base classes with multi line/treed variances, sounds like a class is a class....same as in daoc.....

  Vymm

Novice Member

Joined: 10/27/07
Posts: 113

"Spray paint the world" - Rerak. Quote regarding the waste of time of AOE DPS without kills.

3/29/13 8:52:20 AM#85

"Assuming we fund, I want to use the next two years to do something interesting with each one of the core classes"

Rift has four 'classes' and a bunch of 'subtypes' rolled into these 'classes'.  I am wondering if this is what he means by core?  I am being picky but I have a feeling this may be the case.  I am in favor of maybe 8 classes with two arms from each 'core'.

 

Vymm

  audizmann

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/13
Posts: 24

3/29/13 8:58:01 AM#86

I think it is important to recognize that "mirrored classes" is not just a yes/no question.

 

#1. Mirrored classes.

#2. Similar counterparts.

#3. Unique classes with no direct counterparts.

 

DAoC was a mix of #2 and #3, but to me it sounds like CU will be much closer to #2, which I think would be a shame.

 

I am a big fan of #3 where each realm has roughly the same spells/abilities, but in different combinations which results in truly unique classes. This will be incredibly difficult to achieve with relatively few starting classes. Not to mention the headache of introducing unique expansion classes.

 

DAoC had pretty much all core spells/abilities spread out across the many starting classes. Expansion classes were pretty much different flavours of DPS because these are the least complicated classes to introduce later on.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7195

3/29/13 9:54:28 AM#87

If we really like it, we want more....

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/29/13 10:55:55 AM#88
I just hope you don't just pick tank class
Then depending on what weapons you use you turn into a dual wield light tank, 2hand dps or sword and board
I would rather have those separated into 2-3 classes personally
I honestly don't think he has given enough information on classes to know what's actually going to happen, nothing makes a lot of sense to me and I would really like to know what he's thinking before this kick starter begins even though I don't think it will

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

3/29/13 11:02:24 AM#89

As a personal wishlist thing, I would like to see multi-tiered class promotions / class tree, although MMORPGs tend to have avoided that paradigm.

I suppose it would make respecs problematic.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/29/13 11:36:14 AM#90
Originally posted by naezgul

Quotes from Mark Jacobs:

"As to the other three classes, they are the expected HT, one tank, one healer and one damage dealer but that's only part of the story. Assuming we fund, I want to use the next two years to do something interesting with each one of the core classes. I've got some interesting thoughts on the healer and dps but nothing special has lept to mind yet on the pure tank. The key is that once we've freed ourselves from having to worry about PvE, where can we go with each class to make them fun and interesting to play? This is one of the reasons I'm not doing what I did with Dark Age and planning to have more classes than EQ1 had when we launched. This time, I'd rather have 4 or 5 great classes per realm at launch and then slowly add new ones. If we can create and balance more classes during development, cool but if not, well, that's fine too. The key is I want to work with not only the team here but also hear what other people have to say because frankly, I'm not smart enough to think of every cool possibility but I am smart enough to not even try to do that. The same applies to the stealthers of course. We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)"

"My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes."

 

these sure don't make me believe he is going to be making base classes with multi line/treed variances, sounds like a class is a class....same as in daoc.....

Source?

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  audizmann

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/13
Posts: 24

3/29/13 11:40:31 AM#91
I believe that is a quote from this board.
  zekuel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/13
Posts: 39

3/29/13 2:58:25 PM#92
I would like to see 4-5 different classes each realm. I don't want spell balance between realms(meaning every realm has an aoe mezz). I would like to see classes built upon class characteristics and stay true to that class. Every realm should have 4-5 unique classes and there strengths should be built on those classes not balance and fairness between realms. Also if there is only 4-5 classes I would like to see groups only able to have 4-5 members in them so you would have to build a group dynamic depending on play style desired.
  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/29/13 3:31:07 PM#93
Originally posted by zekuel
I would like to see 4-5 different classes each realm. I don't want spell balance between realms(meaning every realm has an aoe mezz). I would like to see classes built upon class characteristics and stay true to that class. Every realm should have 4-5 unique classes and there strengths should be built on those classes not balance and fairness between realms. Also if there is only 4-5 classes I would like to see groups only able to have 4-5 members in them so you would have to build a group dynamic depending on play style desired.

Are you suggesting some realms have access to AoE mezz while others don't? If so I have to strongly disagree with you frankly on the fact you start with a system that is already going to be hell to balance and adding something like that (where maybe TDDs have AoE mezz and the other two don't) is just bad design. Thinking about the amount of griping and QQing that would go on makes me laugh.

 

Now if you were suggesting or restating.... nope I can only read it like you want some realms to have certain abilities like AoE mezz, endo regen, power regen, etc. while others don't. While I will admit one realm having AoE root, another having AoE mezz, and the third having AoE stun I think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone who considers them to be equal.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

 
OP  3/29/13 11:14:48 PM#94
Originally posted by EasymodeX

As a personal wishlist thing, I would like to see multi-tiered class promotions / class tree, although MMORPGs tend to have avoided that paradigm.

I suppose it would make respecs problematic.

If you read marks posts on the class subject which I posted above a bit, you will see this is not the case.

he specifically cites one of the possible classes is a bard type buffs/debuffs with no heals. This doesn't sound like a multi tiered/branched system.

sounds like you pick a class and have a few lines to customize them to your liking....

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/30/13 12:03:37 AM#95
Originally posted by naezgul
Originally posted by EasymodeX

As a personal wishlist thing, I would like to see multi-tiered class promotions / class tree, although MMORPGs tend to have avoided that paradigm.

I suppose it would make respecs problematic.

If you read marks posts on the class subject which I posted above a bit, you will see this is not the case.

he specifically cites one of the possible classes is a bard type buffs/debuffs with no heals. This doesn't sound like a multi tiered/branched system.

sounds like you pick a class and have a few lines to customize them to your liking....

Yeah after researching that quote a bit more my proposed system sounds nothing like he described in those quotes. Looking at just the Foundation Principle yes but his quotes make me think the following would be much more likely.

He states we will see classes from the holy trinity. This leads me to believe with having an unmirrored class system all three base class types might play different and, at least for launch, be designed with the theme of the realm they reside in. Thus it would look something like this:

Arthurians (perhaps a realm of balance?)  2 melee and 2 magic:

Tank - Pally - a tank that offers offense and defense via 2h or x/shield paired with holy chants which buff the group

Healer - Cleric - a healer with the ability to use holy magic to cause damage targets from afar, and also obviously heal

DPS - Wizard - Mage who blasts target with magic at a range

Bard/Skald/Minstrel - Minstrel - mainly a supporting class but can switch to melee if the need arises

 

TDD (perhaps more focused on magic) 1 melee 3 magic:

Tank - Champion - keeping with the magic theme, 2h for killing x/shield for tanking paired with debuffs and magic attacks

Healer - Druid/Mentalist - druid would have heals, buffs, magic nature damage, mentalist would be a healer/nuker

DPS - Eldritch - Mage with magics

Bard/Skald/Minstrel - Bard - Buffer/debuffer/support, maybe more attuned with magic giving possible magic attacks

 

Vikings (perhaps more melee/physical focused) 3 melee 1 magic:

Tank - Warrior - true physical tank

Healer - Shaman - Cave magic paired with heals and buffs

DPS - Zerker/Savage - more melee dps for face melting

Bard/Skald/Minstrel - Skald - Sings, Supports, Swings boomstick

 

Edit: The class descriptions and playstyles wouldn't be limited to this I just created them to better illustrate what I meant. They could be completely different.

Obviously more information needs to be found/given about the skill system to better determine what skill sets each Holy Trinity class will have. A system like this would still allow for an unmirrored class system. The only setback I could think of using a system like this is where you give one or two realms something the second and/or third doesn't have.

 

Now this is just crazy ball parking but it would allow for adding classes after launch to not have to be the same type of class. You wouldn't have a Warhammer situation where the Slayer/Choppa were both added in the same patch. Yes I know it was a mirrored class system but I feel it still supports my point. So maybe the first big patch comes out and they add all stealthers (maybe physical and ranged stealther is combined into one class maybe not) but in the second big class patch they would add a caster or melee to the Arthurians, a melee to the TDD, and a caster to the Vikings. Or maybe not even that balanced.

 

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  wordiz

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/12
Posts: 481

3/30/13 12:07:07 AM#96

This is a sign that the hype wagon is a little too much on this one. Especially for such early stages of development.

http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/

  fanglo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/04
Posts: 280

3/30/13 12:21:29 AM#97
More than likely the KS will reach a few stretch goals unlocking more classes. I'm super optimistic so I'll bet the KS raises 10million dollars and each realm releases with at least 10 classes.

I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/30/13 1:18:06 AM#98
@wordiz can you explain yourself a little more? We are merely theory crafting here fleshing out potential ideas. This game is hyped because people who grew up playing MMOs like EQ, Daoc, AO, UO, etc. haven't had something like that since playing those games. After WoW everything was designed to make money and not to be necessarily a good game (or perhaps a better way to say it would be deep) for people who enjoy the challenge and depth the older MMOs offered. I feel the MMO genre is about to shift some of it's focus away from catering to casuals and split into two branches. Smaller more core based MMOs like this one or Lord British's and what ever AAA developers keep getting publishers to sink money into trying to make money. I feel the small core based MMOs that are designed well are going to boom because so many older MMO players crave a game like that. One thing all of us won't put up with is crappy design.

@fanglo I'm sure it will reach a few stretch goals but 10 million? I'll be hard pressed to admit I can see that happening. I hope it happens but I think it's unlikely. 10 classes per realm sounds like massive pain to try and balance for such a small indie team but hey maybe 10 million lets them hire more people and with 2 years of development design well balanced classes.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5151

3/30/13 1:21:43 AM#99
Originally posted by DeanMalinco
Originally posted by DMKano

Hopefully the class system will be somewhat flexible and not 100% locked into a single role.

I can't tell you how many times in DAoC I wished that I had a main different than my shaman (this was vanilla DAoC before any expansion). I just felt so useless in RvR.

If we have any ability to change roles without having to grind out another toon from level 1, that would be awesome, as I don't have 10 hours to devote a day like I had 10 years ago.

I really like the flexibility of Rifts soul system, you still remain a single class but your role can vary depending on spec.

no offense but, i hope this is exactly the direction MJ does NOT take. this type of flexibility in spec is what many of us have come to hate in all of the new MMO genre. skill respec should be available for your tune, but at large cost/time sink. Similar to DAOC classic/si with respec stones from the dragon/sidi dungeons.

As for classes: I vote 6 initial types

- Healer

- Ranged DPS / Utility / minimal CCer

- Melee DPS / Tank / Disruptor

- Speed Class / CCer / Disruptor 

- Pure Utility (buff, debuff, some cc, possibly mana battery / auras / resists )

- Stealther / Scout

None taken, I understand where you are coming from and 10 years ago my answer would have been the same. But I just don't have that type of time nor desire to devote to any game, so flexibility to me is KEY in a MMORPG.

If CU has static "set in stone" classes that cannot perform multiple roles via some type of a system similar to Rift's multiple soul combination system I'll be passing.

In an RvR game being able to tune your spec from one battle to another is a nice feature, want more DPS, you sacrifice your defense or healing by a lot, want more heals - your DPS goes down a lot etc...

Obviously your main Archetype still determins your base role - but DAoC's classes were 100% locked to doing the same thing over and over again. I was fine with this back in the day, not anymore. No thanks.

I hate being forced to play one thing all the time because my class is LOCKED to one specific thing ... I just am not a fan of that anymore.

I hope that CU makes drastic improvements over the static class system in DAoC.

  Ncrediblebulk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/08
Posts: 137

"Bulk Smash, Baby! Bulk Smash!"

3/30/13 1:38:32 AM#100
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by DeanMalinco
Originally posted by DMKano

Hopefully the class system will be somewhat flexible and not 100% locked into a single role.

I can't tell you how many times in DAoC I wished that I had a main different than my shaman (this was vanilla DAoC before any expansion). I just felt so useless in RvR.

If we have any ability to change roles without having to grind out another toon from level 1, that would be awesome, as I don't have 10 hours to devote a day like I had 10 years ago.

I really like the flexibility of Rifts soul system, you still remain a single class but your role can vary depending on spec.

no offense but, i hope this is exactly the direction MJ does NOT take. this type of flexibility in spec is what many of us have come to hate in all of the new MMO genre. skill respec should be available for your tune, but at large cost/time sink. Similar to DAOC classic/si with respec stones from the dragon/sidi dungeons.

As for classes: I vote 6 initial types

- Healer

- Ranged DPS / Utility / minimal CCer

- Melee DPS / Tank / Disruptor

- Speed Class / CCer / Disruptor 

- Pure Utility (buff, debuff, some cc, possibly mana battery / auras / resists )

- Stealther / Scout

None taken, I understand where you are coming from and 10 years ago my answer would have been the same. But I just don't have that type of time nor desire to devote to any game, so flexibility to me is KEY in a MMORPG.

If CU has static "set in stone" classes that cannot perform multiple roles via some type of a system similar to Rift's multiple soul combination system I'll be passing.

In an RvR game being able to tune your spec from one battle to another is a nice feature, want more DPS, you sacrifice your defense or healing by a lot, want more heals - your DPS goes down a lot etc...

Obviously your main Archetype still determins your base role - but DAoC's classes were 100% locked to doing the same thing over and over again. I was fine with this back in the day, not anymore. No thanks.

I hate being forced to play one thing all the time because my class is LOCKED to one specific thing ... I just am not a fan of that anymore.

I hope that CU makes drastic improvements over the static class system in DAoC.

Multiple playstyles offered were visibly better on some classes while almost non-existent on others in Daoc. Warhammer was the first game in my opinion to get tanks right in PvP (partially because of collision detection also). It allowed defensive specced players to focus on guarding (which split damage) along with a few other skill which worked well. Regardless classes like the Warden could go pure high nurture and heals and be a more supportive role or ditch healing and toss points into shield and become a mobile protection unit. Healers would CC/Heal or if running a melee train spam celerity and focus on healing. Sorcs could be main CCs but also had the ability and spec paths to focus on being a damage dealer. Minstrels had a place in the stealth group meta game in some cases. Tanks for the most part basically just did damage. Yes Heroes/Warriors/Armsman with BG or even guard could play defensively but most view that as a waste of potential. So differenent playstyles existed much like in we find in Rift. There were just fewer choices.

 

On a side note Rift's class system was the only class system I've actually enjoyed post classic MMOs (WoW and after). It offered players choice. They could raid in one encounter as dps and switch to support/heals/tank the next. The biggest drawback was some playstyles/classes became sub standard in PvP.

"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

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