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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Experience Points: Not the point of experiences.

11 posts found
  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

 
OP  3/29/13 4:53:51 AM#1

So I have been thinking a lot about the concept for CU, not just because of the game itself, but because I, like many others here, are intrigued by game design and concepts that facilitate game design, especially designs as engaging as this one. We are all smarty-pants armchair devs (some of you are actual devs, so my apologies if I lumped you in with my group!) but it's because we just... well, we just love this shit.

In doing so, I have found myself thinking more laterally than vertically. The brilliance of the concept for CU is how laterally the mechanics could possibly work and intertwine. Most games are focused on starting on the bottom and moving UP.

Level one: Do this. Do this and this.

Level ten: Repeat some approximation of level one in a more epic, awesome environment with more skills on your hotbar.

Level twenty: Keep it up, but now with really cool armor or that one spell everyone told you to wait for because it finally makes your class competitive.

This can be a fun gaming experience, but i am excited about the potential for a game like CU to present a more laterally-progressing game experience. The idea is that the world is there for you to plunge into, and players are creating the stories. Ostensibly, you won't be chopping your way to the next level to get the better skills and gear so you can loot the sweeter dungeon, et al.

An aside (sorry I should have organised these thoughts first): Why are we ever in a rush to advance so quickly? Because all we normally do is experience the content being thrown at us by the developers, and we know the best content is waiting for us ahead. That's NOT a bad thing for a fun ride to the top. But what about wanting more than a fun ride to the top/end? What if advancement doesn't matter so much as what you are doing to help your realm mates, and the stories YOU are creating make the concept of a level grind seem silly?

Back on track: I am a big fan of sandboxes. I think they create an environment where players can create their environment. Sure, I have had some great scripted PvE experiences, but once you have them a few times.... well, you've had them. We shouldn't have to talk about an "endgame" in a mmorpg. That very term lacks vision in amounts that is just flat-out disheartening.

So thinking about lateral advancement and playing a game where you are playing THE GAME from the moment you leave the tutorial and not obsessing about leveling so you can finally see the "good stuff" is exciting, I think. There doesn't have to be an endgame. It can be just THE game. I see real potential for emergent gameplay from level one, and that maybe the experience of being more involved with the power struggles, and with the supply trains and ever-shifting resource control, that one's sense of accomplishment could come not through dinging next level and finally getting that next bolt/style/shout/whatever, but by seeing the effects player effort have on the gameworld and having the term "experience" mean what it actually means rather than being merely a number.

Guess i am just saying "take my money" in a really verbose way. Lol.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

3/29/13 5:30:22 AM#2
my impression so far has been that there will be a leveling experience, but no PvE leveling. It's wide open as to how CSE will do that, and there are definitely alotta possibilities, but there will still be some sort of character progression, imo there has to be.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

 
OP  3/29/13 5:35:25 AM#3

Oh of course! I didn't mean to imply that there would not be. I was just contemplating the ways in which the experience of playing a game could potentially matter more than the game of getting experience.

I still wanna level up :P

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Sornin

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 1138

Too weird to live, and too rare to die

3/29/13 5:39:26 AM#4

I had initially written a long post about vertical and horizontal progression, but a moment of idiocy resulted in its loss - oh well.

To be short, I do not see how a vertical progression system would work well in a strictly PvP/RvR environment. I do see ways it would work, but, like I said, not well. It is difficult to feel like a part of the ongoing war when you cannot fend for yourself or compete on a somewhat level field, and without PvE, it is not as though you can simply avoid other players and grind levels out.

So, I think a lot of progression will be of the horizontal variety where more emphasis is placed on options than on raw power.

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

3/29/13 5:47:37 AM#5

This is totally off the top of my head, but they could have partially protected areas where higher levels could not attack or they could go GW2 style and level down/up which I like less because it kind of destroys part of the excitement of leveling if you can just get to max level (admitedly with less skills) by going to a max level area.

Partially protected areas would not be a BG concept, but be open world with valuable resources/strategic points and contiguous with the rest of the land mass, but only people of a certain level can attack/defend there.

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/29/13 6:15:45 AM#6
Originally posted by Daizedd

This is totally off the top of my head, but they could have partially protected areas where higher levels could not attack or they could go GW2 style and level down/up which I like less because it kind of destroys part of the excitement of leveling if you can just get to max level (admitedly with less skills) by going to a max level area.

Partially protected areas would not be a BG concept, but be open world with valuable resources/strategic points and contiguous with the rest of the land mass, but only people of a certain level can attack/defend there.

 

To me, scaling (like Warhammer did) is one of hte best things when it comes to pvp.

 

Those higher level players still have access to more higher level skills and strategies, and the lower levels are simply put on a more even playing field wher ethe higher levels don't one-hit them or win because their lv/time commiment.

The higher levels still have an advantage, but it makes the lower levels still a threat and not something you just ignore as a nuisance.

To me, rather I be the lower level or higher lv, I find this more exciting. I don't want to one-hit people lower level then more (or have combat feel pre determined because of the great level difference) and at lower levels it's really a turn off either being cut-off from the pvp expeirenc (IE rushing to max to be on an even ground like in many pve/pvp mmos) or having levels mean so much you can almost determine whow ill win based on the sheer level difference.

 

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

3/29/13 6:17:22 AM#7

I was thinking about a horizontal progression too. It means that your character doesn't have levels to reach to get new skills, but rather improve those skills by using them and unlock new skills when he has a certain level of mastery in certain skills. Doing it that way would facilitate for the devs the increase of our base stats with certain actions, by adding a passive skill of this stats than the player doesn't see.

 

Also, MJ said than your actions for the realm will reward you, so i was thinking for example :

You are defending a keep, it means you do certain things you wouldn't in a flat plain battle. You pour oil, repair walls, use AoE and PBAoE spells, group heals, traps building and enemy supply line disabling in function of your class. Of course each time you do it the appropriated skill get exp, but if you are able to defend the keep effectively and send the attackers off, you will be rewarded by multiplying the exp you received in the fight by an appropriate coefficient.

It would mean than fighting for a Point Of Interest will increase the exp you get in case of victory.

 

Another thing to take into account, is the fact than fights will go on for longer duration, and it will increase the meaning of losing or winning, especially if you get exp only if you win. I was thinking of giving a bonus to the winner, but the loser still get exp for the skills he used during the fight, this way even if you are a bad player or fighting against overwhelming opponents with no chance of winning, you will still give the best of yourself knowing it won't be totally wasted. No more resigned players that doesn't fight back and sit down to die faster.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

3/29/13 6:21:35 AM#8
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Daizedd

This is totally off the top of my head, but they could have partially protected areas where higher levels could not attack or they could go GW2 style and level down/up which I like less because it kind of destroys part of the excitement of leveling if you can just get to max level (admitedly with less skills) by going to a max level area.

Partially protected areas would not be a BG concept, but be open world with valuable resources/strategic points and contiguous with the rest of the land mass, but only people of a certain level can attack/defend there.

 

To me, scaling (like Warhammer did) is one of hte best things when it comes to pvp.

 

Those higher level players still have access to more higher level skills and strategies, and the lower levels are simply put on a more even playing field wher ethe higher levels don't one-hit them or win because their lv/time commiment.

The higher levels still have an advantage, but it makes the lower levels still a threat and not something you just ignore as a nuisance.

To me, rather I be the lower level or higher lv, I find this more exciting. I don't want to one-hit people lower level then more (or have combat feel pre determined because of the great level difference) and at lower levels it's really a turn off either being cut-off from the pvp expeirenc (IE rushing to max to be on an even ground like in many pve/pvp mmos) or having levels mean so much you can almost determine whow ill win based on the sheer level difference.

 

This is what makes me think there won't be any scaling :

 

"We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."

(http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/top-ten-questions-no-realm-ranks-abilities-what/)

 

  Stiler

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 599

3/29/13 7:26:26 AM#9
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
Originally posted by Stiler
Originally posted by Daizedd

This is totally off the top of my head, but they could have partially protected areas where higher levels could not attack or they could go GW2 style and level down/up which I like less because it kind of destroys part of the excitement of leveling if you can just get to max level (admitedly with less skills) by going to a max level area.

Partially protected areas would not be a BG concept, but be open world with valuable resources/strategic points and contiguous with the rest of the land mass, but only people of a certain level can attack/defend there.

 

To me, scaling (like Warhammer did) is one of hte best things when it comes to pvp.

 

Those higher level players still have access to more higher level skills and strategies, and the lower levels are simply put on a more even playing field wher ethe higher levels don't one-hit them or win because their lv/time commiment.

The higher levels still have an advantage, but it makes the lower levels still a threat and not something you just ignore as a nuisance.

To me, rather I be the lower level or higher lv, I find this more exciting. I don't want to one-hit people lower level then more (or have combat feel pre determined because of the great level difference) and at lower levels it's really a turn off either being cut-off from the pvp expeirenc (IE rushing to max to be on an even ground like in many pve/pvp mmos) or having levels mean so much you can almost determine whow ill win based on the sheer level difference.

 

This is what makes me think there won't be any scaling :

 

"We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."

(http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/top-ten-questions-no-realm-ranks-abilities-what/)

 

What he said gels with exactly what scaling does, at least in my experience with it (mainly in Warhammer).

He doens't want high lv players to "sneeze" and blow lower lv's to the four winds. However higher lv's should still come with more benefits (more skills/perks, etc). He mentions not wanting the gulf of disparity between characters.

I'm not sure how you take this to mean "No scaling," because to me it sounds like exactly what scaling can help do, it keept  higher lv's from one-hititng lower levels, it allows for a much better pvp experience "out of the gates" and still allows higher lv's an advantage with skills and other othings that come with being a higher level.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

3/29/13 7:30:24 AM#10
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

"We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system        (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."

(http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/top-ten-questions-no-realm-ranks-abilities-what/)

 

Sorry i didn't emphasize at first, i thought the rest couldn't be used as a counter argument^^

  Drakonal

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 43

3/29/13 9:02:27 AM#11
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

"We want to create a system where a high level character is better than he was, better…faster…stronger… than a low level player but it should also not be a system        (if we want to have a truly open world) where the high level player sneezes and the low level player is scattered to the four winds. You must be able to have actual RvR in an RvR-focused game and that means that the cavernous gulf of disparity between characters that can be found in other games must not be part of the system here. Again, being a more experienced player will come with tons of perks, benefits, abilities, etc. but it should not be instant death to see somebody a bit more powerful than you coming at you if we want this game to succeed."

(http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/top-ten-questions-no-realm-ranks-abilities-what/)

 

Sorry i didn't emphasize at first, i thought the rest couldn't be used as a counter argument^^

Regardless of the way the progression system works one thing everyone needs to remember, (Saying this based off of some of the posts i read) is that this game will indeed take us back to an MMO system with hardships and penalties. Alot of the easy stuff we are used to over the last few years being in every MMO won't nessicarly be there anymore for CU. Hell i'm sure there will be a thing or two from DAoC that won't even be in CU because it was deemed too forgiving towards a hand holding mechanic.

 

There is a few things we know will be happening though. From day one we will be involved in the ongoing Realm Wars and there will be hardships parralel to the progressive systems we encounter in CU.

 

 

I for one am looking forward to whatever they throw at us because a game bringing us back to some similance of MMO roots is a long damn time coming.

Drakonal of Lancelot/Kay
Drakulaz of Mordred
http://www.riskymilk.com/Kujii/Player_Base.wmv (classic guild video alb no cloth group)