I have one thing to add to the stealther topic:

 

Back in the day of DAoC there were fairly few stealth players compared to overall visible classes because, imo, stealth classes were a pain in the ass to level to 50 and fully equip them.

According to MJ's statements, new players in CU will be able to join RvR fairly quickly and they will be viable as well.

What do you think can be done to make playing an assassin harder than other classes to not let them overpopulate, as we don't have the PvE 'hurdle' now anymore?

The most fun I have ever had in an MMO was stealth groups on Mordred in DAOC.

 

Stealth classes are essential and I hope to se them in CU. Just make them super squishy without heavy openers.

 

Limited stealth is dumb.

 

My 2c

Originally posted by tlear
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.

Well one side's opinion does not trump another side's opinion so I wouldn't immediately strawman the man.

Personally I love the idea "Kappen" did post on our forums:

http://www.simply-gaming.com/camelot/forum/showthread.php?tid=32&pid=361#pid361

"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."

That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing :)

Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

Personally I love the idea "Kappen" did post on our forums:

http://www.simply-gaming.com/camelot/forum/showthread.php?tid=32&pid=361#pid361

"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."

That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing :)

This is a good idea.  Maybe 1 or 2 stealthers together is fine, but anymore than 3 and they are partially visible.  Over 4 and they are visible. 

 

I like it, it can retain the non timed stealth for loners and duos but also make stealth zergs completely visible. 

Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

Personally I love the idea "Kappen" did post on our forums:

http://www.simply-gaming.com/camelot/forum/showthread.php?tid=32&pid=361#pid361

"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."

That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing :)

I like it.

It seems like most everyone's opinion is based on whether or not you played a stealther in the past. It's like Republicans and Democrats arguing: only your side is right.

 If you played a visible class then you know how much it sucked not being able to go anywhere without being jumped by a 4-pack of invisible kids. If you played a stealther then you know how much it would suck to not be welcomed in a group because you served no purpose in a game outside of solo'ing or grouping with other stealth campers.

I enjoyed playing a stealther before it became easy to play. Eventually you ran into the problem of not even being able to solo because you'd always find trios or quads of other "solo" stealth classes.

Oh, and watching a squishy stealther dismantle a pure tank was always ridiculous. That should essentially never happen unless it was one of those rare and chaotic moments that Mark posted about.

 

Minstrels were the only class that I think had stealth done right. Reasonable damage, group viability & speed/stealth for scouting; well done, Mythic. I had a blast on my minstrel in both solo stealth and group options. More stealth done that way will make this guy a happy customer.

Originally posted by Kryptonite_Hilo

It seems like most everyone's opinion is based on whether or not you played a stealther in the past. It's like Republicans and Democrats arguing: only your side is right.

 If you played a visible class then you know how much it sucked not being able to go anywhere without being jumped by a 4-pack of invisible kids. If you played a stealther then you know how much it would suck to not be welcomed in a group because you served no purpose in a game outside of solo'ing or grouping with other stealth campers.

I enjoyed playing a stealther before it became easy to play. Eventually you ran into the problem of not even being able to solo because you'd always find trios or quads of other "solo" stealth classes.

Oh, and watching a squishy stealther dismantle a pure tank was always ridiculous. That should essentially never happen unless it was one of those rare and chaotic moments that Mark posted about.

 

Minstrels were the only class that I think had stealth done right. Reasonable damage, group viability & speed/stealth for scouting; well done, Mythic. I had a blast on my minstrel in both solo stealth and group options. More stealth done that way will make this guy a happy customer.

You've hit upon the REAL issue with stealth.  It's not whether it is overpowered or not.  It's WHAT STEALTH BRINGS TO THE GROUP that matters.  Stealth Zergs were not created by Stealth as an ability.  They were created by Stealthers being shunned by every other group.  Anyone who played a Stealther from the beginning will atest to this.

Stealth Zergs won't be an issue if Stealthers can serve a larger role in RvR and in groups.

I think the Minstrel is a perfect example of how bad Stealth was in DAoC.  No group ever included a Minstrel BECAUSE of his Stealth... in fact, most grouping Minstrels didn't worry about their Stealth spec.

Something like "Group Purpose" would be, what I would focus on regarding stealthers. As long as they promote lonely onehit gankers, stealthers will be hated by a lot of people. But if you actually design them as a viable class, serving certain purposes valuable for the group, then people could start to accept stealth as an ability like healing or anything else.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by tlear
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.

LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.

I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.

I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them.  And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC. :)

Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot"  and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.

 My general dislike about it is invisible(effectively)->overkill attack.  If you are thinking along the lines of a scouting class, then rather than scouts getting uber attacks, give them targetting/highlighting abilities that give big bonuses to the non-scouts for opening attacks.  This will make scouts desired without them being killing machines.  Kind of like artillery spotters.

Bad design examples for pvp:  CoV stalkers(invis-one-shot if the code wasn't changed to prevent the 1 shot), WoW rogues (Invis-stunlock).

 

Originally posted by Storm_Fireblade

Personally I love the idea "Kappen" did post on our forums:

http://www.simply-gaming.com/camelot/forum/showthread.php?tid=32&pid=361#pid361

"So, how hard would it be to have a mechanic that lowers stealth rating when more stealthers from a realm are together? Even to the (extreme) point that it makes them visible. It makes sense that with more people hiding in an area, it would be harder to hide. They had the code to limit Ani mushrooms and other pets, can't see why this wouldn't be possible."

That not only would be adding to the realism ingame, but would also make sure, we won´t get any stealthed ganking-squads out there. Of course you still need to discuss and balance the lonely stealther himself, but regarding stealthgroups etc this suggested mechanic would be a blessing :)

 That is an interesting suggestion.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by tlear
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.

LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.

I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.

I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them.  And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC. :)

Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot"  and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.

Mark,

 

Please don't screw us stealthers.  Stealth was so much fun in DAOC...even with all the stealth hate that you supposedly had.  And yes, I've met you at the old Mythic HQ.  In 2003/4 we had 2 percival player meets, one where we came and toured the Mythic offices.  I was the guy who asked about the left axe nerf and its affects on shadowblades...which you passed off to Mackey like it was on fire.

 

Stealther's don't change the end game individually outside of scouting.   They just make people play smarter and more careful. 

 

I have never played a stealther in anything but thidranki and I'm a full supporter of stealth in this game...
Even though the stealth zergs made soloing impossible so I love the idea about more stealth in the area make them visible, would spread stealthers out along supply lines encouraging soloing. Thus erasin the only bad thing about stealthers - stealth zergs

Firmly believe soloing should be viable in this game and I hope mark looks at something like this and doesn't just erase stealthers

Don't have a high burst dps class with stealth, give it to a sustained dps class. That basically only gives stealthers a partial advantage in certain situations instead of instagank and run. Also if you want to give the stealth class something that would make non-stealth classes want one around, give it an ability such as tracking to counter the stealth. Basically a scout.

Originally posted by ice-vortex

Don't have a high burst dps class with stealth, give it to a sustained dps class. That basically only gives stealthers a partial advantage in certain situations instead of instagank and run. Also if you want to give the stealth class something that would make non-stealth classes want one around, give it an ability such as tracking to counter the stealth. Basically a scout.

Hmm yeah if you give stealthers radar that would certainly get them group invites lol.

Originally posted by Mark Jacobs
LOL, if people are thinking of me as a messiah, they are going to be sorely disappointed as I’m just a fellow gaming geek who wants to make a very unique game for a niche audience."

your niche is with ya, gl on the project mark :)

what if stealth is phasing in another dimension, so if 2 ppl are stealthing , even of oposite realms, they can see each other cause all of them are on the same plane. u can even create skills that only work in the 2nd dimension or create classses especialized in fighting on 2nd dimension agains phased enemies. If the player atacks someone on the "phisical" world they become visible and if they atack someone from the 2nd dimension they stay invisible.

about scouts you can create a fast one, a stealth one and a crowd control one. just my opinion.

 

 How about we just use common sense when it comes to stealth. Lets go with modifiers first.

Bonus to Stealth

-standing still

-crouching near an object (bushes, etc)

-shadows

Negative Modifiers

-rate of movement speed

-direct light

-direct view range

Stealth seems pretty easy to me. The closer the stealthed target is, the easier they should be to notice if they are in the direct line of sight of a player. Stealth should be a tactic not the only method a class has to fight. Using bushes, trees, rocks, etc to block line of sight is stealth and should be made effective.  Vanishing in thin air infront of an enemy, while in direct sunlight, thats invisibility and not stealth.

I believe stealth should be a skill and not class specific. Raise Dex or Agi gain a modifier to stealth. Crouch in the appropriate bushes and holy shit, your stealthed. Maybe some classes have bonuses to stealth, but a class being 100% focused on stealth is rather absurd.

Stealth should be a tactic limited by the environment.

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

what if stealth is phasing in another dimension, so if 2 ppl are stealthing , even of oposite realms, they can see each other cause all of them are on the same plane. u can even create skills that only work in the 2nd dimension or create classses especialized in fighting on 2nd dimension agains phased enemies. If the player atacks someone on the "phisical" world they become visible and if they atack someone from the 2nd dimension they stay invisible.

about scouts you can create a fast one, a stealth one and a crowd control one. just my opinion.

I wouldn´t go so far to actually make it another dimension where everyone is able to see the others, but since the veil has been pierced it might be possible to use something here to explain an "invisible" class.

Although I´m quite fond of those dymanic stealth suggestions too. I just think, that someone playing a stealther should have permastealth. Anything less is just annoying for someone playing a class like that.

Originally posted by BadSpock

The real reason you can't have Assassins in PvP games is that they are supposed to be exceptionally rare and talented characters.

Not disagreeing with your basic point but...  So are Elves. At least according to JRRT.

How did that one work out?