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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Q&A with Mark Jacobs on Simply Gaming

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66 posts found
  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

 
OP  3/01/13 1:47:17 PM#1
Keeping up his unique communication with the community, Mark gave us the opportunity to get some questions answered, so enjoy the read.


http://camelot.simply-gaming.com/mark1.php

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

3/01/13 2:16:50 PM#2
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.
  Vened

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/07
Posts: 71

3/01/13 2:17:34 PM#3
I got one question.
How CU will work with hundreds of players in one place?
RvR means for me fight 5v1, 5v5, 5v20, 300v300. There is almost none mmorpg with large and small scale pvp. Will CU be one of them?
  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

3/01/13 2:32:00 PM#4
Originally posted by tlear
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.

LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.

I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.

I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them.  And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC. :)

Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot"  and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

3/01/13 2:36:00 PM#5
Originally posted by Vened
I got one question.
How CU will work with hundreds of players in one place?
RvR means for me fight 5v1, 5v5, 5v20, 300v300. There is almost none mmorpg with large and small scale pvp. Will CU be one of them?

That sir is the key question and one of the two main focuses of Andrew and the team. That's one of the reasons we've already eliminated a number of possible rendering engines. It's truly our biggest technical challenge as it is for any team that tries to do an RvR game. Making a game look good with 20 people on the screen is for tourists, making a game with hundreds of people on the screen run well, that's another matter entirely. :)

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Bracheer

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/07
Posts: 6

Camelot Unchained :: http://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

3/01/13 2:42:49 PM#6
stealthers almost never had a role in a group, they wer great in solo duo and stealth groups but rarely seen in the organised groups. Warhammer did make them great damage deals and armorshreaders but they died fast and got out of range for healer or assists. And in daoc they wer the mage killers in keepsiege, they climbed walls killed vanished and repeated, was a very cool feature. didnt like casters on the wall trowing aoe and when they got low health they just went out of line of sight and regenerated, assasins stopped that.
  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/01/13 2:42:54 PM#7
I continue to like what I read from MJ.  Glad that he is considering how Stealth may (or may not) work, rather than putting in a half-assed system.  Honestly, I'd rather see NO stealth than WAR or GW2 style stealth.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/01/13 2:45:48 PM#8
Oooooh I can't wait to hear the BSC idea! Awesome Q&A, btw. Thanks to Storm and Mark alike. I love the community growing around CU. I seriously have not smiled as much over a future game ever.

Cheers!

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

3/01/13 2:50:23 PM#9

That's cool. It really is nice / encouraging to see that you all are considering all angles on the stealther front. I honestly can't say how I think they would be "best" implementated, but I know I'd hate to see them be excluded entirely.

 

I think an awesome role original stealthers in classic daoc played was scouting for groups and/or calling out enemy sightings. Plus they kept you from afking in keeps by yourself, etc... or picking off stragglers. I actually think they ENHANCED the social factor of the game, because people wanted to group up more so they wouldn't be picked off by stealthers, groups communicated with scouting stealthers etc... I know when I got separated from my groups for whatever reason in rvr, I immediately felt the hairs on the back of my neck rise up, as I could feel stealthers eyes all over me, LOL. Exciting/scary/fun factor.

 

I'm not sure if I think BOTH melee assassin as well as ranger type range stealther are needed or not, but I think there's a strong niche of players that like both of those class roles.

 

As for the EXACT stealth mechanic implementation, I'm sure you all have some great ideas, but I wasn't a big fan of the short duration stealth in WAR. I liked the perma stealth in DAOC unless someone hit you with an attack.

 

An idea I just thought of on a whim though, is that perhaps part of how the stealth could work is that you "can" run normal speed with stealth on, but it will make you almost entirely visible, and people will be able to target you from range. If you walk/move at slow speed, you'll have a kind of "predator movie" type stealth where if you're looking close enough you could see someone, but not if you're really busy in combat or otherwise distracted, however you wouldn't be targettable from range. (plus this adds in the factor of true day/night and weather effects possibly helping or hurting your stealth). Last but not least, if you stand perfectly still you could be perfectly invisible. To me this works really well for and encourages the whole scouting mechanic, and if you use good strategy "could" use it for assassination, but would eliminate the completely invisible characters running around hehe. Of course if you use any kind of attack stealth would drop.

 

That could be a really interesting mechanic to play in a pure rvr game, with the excitement on the stealth side of trying to follow people or move around, but freezing perfectly still trying to hide if people look in your direction. Plus on the non stealther side, it would make you hyper-vigilant of your surroundings to watch for moving stealthers, and if you think you saw one to run to that area to see if you get close enough to see one.

 

 


MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

3/01/13 2:51:32 PM#10
I like it, I have a feeling stealth will end up in game one way or another.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Vynt

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 601

3/01/13 2:53:22 PM#11

I've always liked stealth in games I play. Even when I am not playing one, I still like them. My mains in daoc were not stealthers, usually casters. Was always a great feeling when I would get jumped by a stealther, able to survive and kill them.

I've played a few games over the year that had no stealth class or limited abilities, and I just didn't care for them. It took something away from the gameplay.

For PvE games, I like it when multiple classes have some way to hide, such as stealth, sneak, invisibility. That wouldn't work too well in a pvp game though, even with see invis, since that would defeat the purpose of even having stealth at all, lol.

  Jimmac

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/10
Posts: 1680

3/01/13 2:58:21 PM#12

Full disclosure: I am very anti stealth, as I felt the stealth classes added nothing to DAOC and only took away from it.

That said, if CU does implement stealth, I hope it is implemented in a way where outcome of the fight between a stealther and a non-stealther doesn't depend almost exclusively on the skill of the stealther. In other threads, we've seen pro-stealth arguments describing how it took a skilled player to play a stealth class successfully (having to switch weapons mid fight, re apply poisons and so forth), and that the crappy stealthers usually failed in their assault. I know what I'm about to say is a simplification - but that sounds to me like the outcome of the fight depends on the skill of just one of the two players involved. 1v1 fights are fun when the skill of both players matters, regardless of the class getting jumped. Skill does not have to matter equally between two players...it just has to matter at least somewhat. 

And a smaller request - if stealth is implemented in CU, I hope it is done in a way where I don't have to play my character a certain way 100% of the time in order to avoid getting hit by a stealther from the back. What I mean is in DAOC, if defending a location (like a bridge) and the group is staying in one place or you are solo/small group, you pretty much had to move your character constantly, spinning him around and running around in one place on the bridge, just to not get stealthed. CU should have some kind of mechanism against stealth so that players don't have to do this. It is annoying to have to move in erratic patterns when you don't even know if an enemy is in the area since you pretty much have to do it constantly, and one class shouldn't cause every other class in the game to have to do something like that constantly.

I know a bunch of people reading this will disagree strongly with my assessments here. Thanks in advance for keeping it civil and not derailing the thread too much.

  Raagnarz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/12
Posts: 261

3/01/13 3:27:16 PM#13
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by tlear
Sounds like mark got convinced again that stealther warz are too much $$ to leave off the table.

LOL, nope. I've said the same thing here about wanting to talk about it. We've had some interesting discussions at the studio about how to implement stealth in interesting and different ways but I want to discuss them with our backers as well before we say yes/no. Implementing stealth in CU is a scary proposition as anyone involved in these discussion knows all too well. It would be really unfair of me to say "Yes Stealth or No Stealth" until I've had a chance to really look at the ramifications of the various implementations and discuss them with the backers.

I know it may sound a little lame but I'm truly troubled by either including them or excluding them because I truly do feel that implementing a scouting class with a strong ability to hide is a really useful class for an RvR-focused game while at the same time I also think that implementing an assassin class is less "necessary" class in RvR but it can also be a fun class to play.

I truly am at a crossroads with stealth and how best to implement it in CU. I'd rather not have stealthers than implement them badly but I also do want a lot of feedback on this issue especially with some of the crazier ideas we have for them.  And let me tell you, one of the ideas is definitely BSC. :)

Oh and I'm so not worried about losing/gaining a group of players' money for this or other decisions. I know that whatever I decide to do, it will have ramifications on player support. That sort of CBA is something I'm so glad I don't have to worry/hear about anymore, makes my life so much more pleasant. Besides, if I was really concerned about gaining more subs, I'd simply say that this game is the "Spiritual Successor to Dark Age of Camelot"  and wave my hands around saying how we were going to add an awesome PvE system and then watch the Kickstarter dollars roll in. Nope, not going to do it, I'd rather have the KS fail then lie to gain some additional money.

You want to stealth to work make it like shadowbane. Implement a scout class that does like zero damage. Its sole purpose is to track and scout and thats about it. Maybe give it some debuffing shots for group rvr as well. Then give it the coup de grace, the ability to unstealth other stealthers. So they can track em and pop em. That way if you decide to put other stealth classes in the game there is already a counter for them built in. By making the initial stealth class a damageless scout only, you'll weed out all the baddiies who play stealth for the crutch while keeping the 3 or 4 that actually mean it when they say they play for a team/realm.

 

Or leave them out entirely so not every player has to roll a stealth class themselves just to gather.

  Enwood

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 9

3/01/13 3:31:25 PM#14
Originally posted by Jimmac

Full disclosure: I am very anti stealth, as I felt the stealth classes added nothing to DAOC and only took away from it.

That said, if CU does implement stealth, I hope it is implemented in a way where outcome of the fight between a stealther and a non-stealther doesn't depend almost exclusively on the skill of the stealther. In other threads, we've seen pro-stealth arguments describing how it took a skilled player to play a stealth class successfully (having to switch weapons mid fight, re apply poisons and so forth), and that the crappy stealthers usually failed in their assault. I know what I'm about to say is a simplification - but that sounds to me like the outcome of the fight depends on the skill of just one of the two players involved. 1v1 fights are fun when the skill of both players matters, regardless of the class getting jumped. Skill does not have to matter equally between two players...it just has to matter at least somewhat. 

And a smaller request - if stealth is implemented in CU, I hope it is done in a way where I don't have to play my character a certain way 100% of the time in order to avoid getting hit by a stealther from the back. What I mean is in DAOC, if defending a location (like a bridge) and the group is staying in one place or you are solo/small group, you pretty much had to move your character constantly, spinning him around and running around in one place on the bridge, just to not get stealthed. CU should have some kind of mechanism against stealth so that players don't have to do this. It is annoying to have to move in erratic patterns when you don't even know if an enemy is in the area since you pretty much have to do it constantly, and one class shouldn't cause every other class in the game to have to do something like that constantly.

I know a bunch of people reading this will disagree strongly with my assessments here. Thanks in advance for keeping it civil and not derailing the thread too much.

How you could say stealth classes added nothing to DAOC and only took away from it confuses me. If they took away from it to you they obviously added to it for someone else. And the ability to go into keeps and destract the people inside from stopping the door crashers was a huge addition to the game. Many other scouting abilities and what not have already been said so there is no reason repeating those.

As for the skill factor , that could be argued about every single class ever made ever. If someone can play thier class better then you can play yours they should win. It always takes a skilled player to play any class successfully. Yeah you can get by playing a class but to play it well you have to be a skilled player. This arguement isn't one that should be used in a stealth or no stealth discussion as it applies to all classes.

As for your smaller request, would you rather stealthers get openers that aren't directional so it doesn't matter how you play your character you are still gonna get pounded if one jumps you? Players will always be players, they don't move like machines so they will always move in erratic patterns to try and get advantages over thier enemys and if they don't it is thier own fault. Not one decent tank type class in daoc ever had to worry about bein jumped by a stealther, so to say every other class were caused to play different because of a potential back attack is silly. If you choose to play a squishy class then thats what you are going to get just like in every other game and you should be susceptible to sneak attacks.

As for the overall stealth or no stealth arguement, to not have them in the game would be a travesty just because it can add so much to the stategy of the game.  Daoc did it pretty well imo with steath and anti-stealth abilities. Sure it can be tweaked and made more balanced, but in the end it needs to be there.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

3/01/13 3:42:46 PM#15
Originally posted by Jimmac

Full disclosure: I am very anti stealth, as I felt the stealth classes added nothing to DAOC and only took away from it.

That said, if CU does implement stealth, I hope it is implemented in a way where outcome of the fight between a stealther and a non-stealther doesn't depend almost exclusively on the skill of the stealther. In other threads, we've seen pro-stealth arguments describing how it took a skilled player to play a stealth class successfully (having to switch weapons mid fight, re apply poisons and so forth), and that the crappy stealthers usually failed in their assault. I know what I'm about to say is a simplification - but that sounds to me like the outcome of the fight depends on the skill of just one of the two players involved. 1v1 fights are fun when the skill of both players matters, regardless of the class getting jumped. Skill does not have to matter equally between two players...it just has to matter at least somewhat. 

And a smaller request - if stealth is implemented in CU, I hope it is done in a way where I don't have to play my character a certain way 100% of the time in order to avoid getting hit by a stealther from the back. What I mean is in DAOC, if defending a location (like a bridge) and the group is staying in one place or you are solo/small group, you pretty much had to move your character constantly, spinning him around and running around in one place on the bridge, just to not get stealthed. CU should have some kind of mechanism against stealth so that players don't have to do this. It is annoying to have to move in erratic patterns when you don't even know if an enemy is in the area since you pretty much have to do it constantly, and one class shouldn't cause every other class in the game to have to do something like that constantly.

I know a bunch of people reading this will disagree strongly with my assessments here. Thanks in advance for keeping it civil and not derailing the thread too much.

Are you serious? lol

I can't see any negatives to stealthers like they were in DAOC, people who played them didn't play them to group ( if they did they shouldn't have ), they were a niche class, and why not have a niche class in a niche game??

Stealthers had a major role, scouting, assaulting keeps, defending keeps, holding bridges / mile gates and everyone who played them loved them.

You never had to spin around like a crazy person anyway, just had to keep moving.

I'm sorry you couldn't afk at a choke point and not die, but being lazy and not moving around is a poor excuse. Having stealthers keeps you engaged in your character and always worried / on your toes, without that you lose a lot of undermining fear / emotion to the game... for this fact I truely hope they have stealthers. ( ps i'm not a stealther myself either )

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

3/01/13 3:56:10 PM#16

This is kind of a random/silly idea, and I haven't really thought it out much, but what about...

 

only give the pure crafter classes stealth?

 

gives them more of a role in rvr combat for scouting if they want, or run with a group for building whatever objects are needed for assault/defense

 

trying to think outside the box hehe.. but since they dont have "combat" as their defense, maybe stealth would be their defense...

 

sort of makes sense to give people that can't defend themselves too well a good way to hide from other players

 

dunno just a thought hehe


MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

3/01/13 4:00:12 PM#17

Mark-

How about making Scouts realistic?

Sure, they can hide - but can't move really well or fast while hidden.

They can move REAL fast when they need to but not while stealthed.

They have really no offensive or defensive ability - just speed and a good chance to hide / remain hidden.

Assassins are a big NO in PvP. Seriously. It's a crutch!

 

The only way to do Assassins right is in a single player game - they are way too OP in MMOs - ALWAYS.

There are plenty of games with Stealth classes and PvP / RvR - if you are trying to do something different - do something different. Don't give in to whiners that want THEIR favorite OP class added even though it's detrimental to the overall balance of the game.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  BadSpock

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

3/01/13 4:10:04 PM#18

The real reason you can't have Assassins in PvP games is that they are supposed to be exceptionally rare and talented characters.

But in a MMO - everyone can/could simply choose them as their class.

Think about it.

Games in one way or another emulate real life.

Keep Sieges in RvR games with siege weapons and defenses and busting down doors and walls and cutting off supply lines etc...

All based in reality.

What you don't have in reality?

Armies full of ninjas.

There is a reason special forces are rare and limited in number and only used in specific situations.

Only way having stealth assassin ninja types in a MMO based on RvR that would actually work and not be stupid / OP is if only like 1% of the playerbase could play an assassin - have them be realistically your "special forces" troops for the craziest / most difficult missions.

99% of your players should be soldiers/archers.

But you will also have mages and such, which again should only really be 1% to make it not completely ridiculous and OP.

A RvR game I'd love to play? 1% special forces (ninja stealthers) 1% magic users - 98% soldiers/archers.

And I would want to be in the 98% of soldiers/archers.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2445

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

3/01/13 4:14:00 PM#19
On the subject of stealth, I feel like stealth should work like it did in Planetside 2, or like Guild Wars 2. Perma-stealth is rediculously overpowered coupled with the openings stealthers usually have. I always have a stealther just because they're always so rediculously overpowered, and I also feel like they're the cheapest class in the game usually.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/01/13 4:14:07 PM#20
I think stealth should be in the game (permanent, but almost no in combat stealth like daoc). That said, I don't mind the idea of making it less like an assassin and more like a support class so they have a role in a group and alone. That's a risky way to go about it, and i'm not sure how fun it would be go out alone with sub par 1v1 abilities. Minstril from daoc is probably the closest I can think of although with charm even that class could be a strong 1v1... it wasn't an insta kill by any means.
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