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City State Entertainment | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Development  (est.rel N/A)  | Pub:City State Entertainment
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335 posts found
  Satarious

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/08
Posts: 1045

2/21/13 1:23:03 PM#301
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
Originally posted by jtcgs
 

You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system.  CU and TESO is for me and not for you.  Simple as that.  Don't tell others what "real pride" is that makes no sense.  People had real "pride" of their realm in DAoC and I am sure they did with WAR.  It doesn't matter if you were restricted, it just felt like you were living in a different country.

Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.

I, for one, definitely prefer the DAoC type system.  The community in WoW was always pretty horrible.  And Blizzard just didn't give a damn as long as the Benjamins kept rolling in.

 

I remember a time when open world pvp was hoppin' around that one undead town (forget the name of it).  People seemed to love it.  Then what does Blizzard do?  They absolutely KILL IT by opening up these dumbed down BG pvp instances with huge rewards (little effort).  It was almost like digging a couple of huge ditches and allowing the water (the players) to flow down into it.  Ever since then, WoW held no appeal for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7304

2/21/13 2:21:58 PM#302


Originally posted by Father_Jack

It's not a donation. It's not a gift. A gift or donation means you expect nothing in return. When you fund a kickstarter you do expect something in return.  You give them money and you get something back. Not financial not equity I never said you get money back, you get something non-monetary that you want.


No legal or accounting system care about YOUR expectations.


Investment means putting money into something with prospect of gain - either monetary or in form of assets generating gain in the future.

There is no gain or profit for you to make when you throw money on KS. None.

In fact, you are not recieving anything for KS money you donated. When company receive money from KS funding, it will be listed as donation in their accounting books because there is no return consideration. Company is not obliged to give you anything from money they received but if/when they do, the rewards for pledging will be listed as promotional merchandise or simply gifts.

Therefore you donate money on KS.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/21/13 3:53:00 PM#303
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

You prefer a WoW type sytem, I prefer a DAoC type system.  

Enemy states that don't let people across, like you know, real life.

 The fact that you said WoW speaks volumns about your limited MMO experience...and that you used enemy states not allowing people to cross their border speaks volumns of what you know about war...you know, the thing that has armies invading their enemies lands.

Like you know, real life, where warring factions dont have invisible walls protecting their lands and they all fight in neverland.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 4:06:29 PM#304
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Father_Jack

It's not a donation. It's not a gift. A gift or donation means you expect nothing in return. When you fund a kickstarter you do expect something in return.  You give them money and you get something back. Not financial not equity I never said you get money back, you get something non-monetary that you want.

 

No legal or accounting system care about YOUR expectations.


Investment means putting money into something with prospect of gain - either monetary or in form of assets generating gain in the future.

There is no gain or profit for you to make when you throw money on KS. None. Therefore you donate money.

 

Look if  you and others have an axe to grind with CU or MJ, and you want to hate on them ,I don't really care. I'm not defending them, but you are attacking KSer and spreading a bunch of misinformationa and that is wrong. It's like you are not even reading my posts or you have serious reading comprehension issues. It also seems like you still haven't even bothered to check out the site. I've beeninvolved with dozens of KSers on both sides and I'm telling you have it wrong.

 

Donate, verb, 1. to make a gift, esp. a sum of money.

Gift, noun 1. Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation.

 

So from the definition of the words a donation is something that is freely given with no expectation of compensation.  If you give someone something and you expect something in return that is not a donation. It's crystal clear. It doesn't matter what the reciever of the donation thinks or does.  Donate is a verb it is the action of the subject , the subject is the person donating they are taking the action so what thier intent is is reflected int he verb it doesn't matter what the reciever thinks of the situation.

You are toally WRONG  there is gain to be made when funding a KS you get something in return if its successful. I've told you that half a dozen times.  I've recieved stufff from KS I've backed and given stuff to people from KS I have helped launch. What you are saying is just totally false. Some KSrs don't end up fulfilling thier part of the deal I'm sure, but this is such a small percentage, it is the exception not the rule. But there is risk in any investment. Go out and buy some stocks if the stocks tank and the buisness goes bankrupt, does your investment suddenly retroactively become a donation? Do you have any legal recourse? No.

 

Invest Verb 1. Expend money with the expectation of achieving a profit or material result by putting it into financial schemes.

 

You give money to KS project with the expectation of a receiving something in return. That is the whole point of KSer.You are motivated by self intereast you want something they are offering.  You are again the subject you are taking the action, it is what is in your mind that is important. This is how language works. If for what ever reason you don't recieve anything back then the person you gave money to broke the contract, it doesn't change what you intended with the money. Your lack of legal recourse after the action has been done doesn't matter. You can't go back in time and change the intent of your action.

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/21/13 4:11:29 PM#305

No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.

I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/21/13 4:22:13 PM#306
Originally posted by jtcgs

No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.

I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!

And this is MUCH closer to how kickstarter works.

The pledge tier rewards are gifts for your contribution.  Infact, the word 'pledge' is freequently used, and that is exactly what kickstarter is: a pledge drive

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5208

2/21/13 4:28:25 PM#307
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:07:59 PM#308
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. 

 

You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.

 

 

 
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

 
OP  2/21/13 5:27:33 PM#309
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. 

 

You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.

 

 

 

Except that the ToS isnt a guarantee.  If the money is spent, the money is spent.  It sounds good, but in practice getting your money back will be difficult (impossible if the creator bankrupts).

 

You dont 'expect'.  You hope.  If you expect something from a MMORPG kickstarter, you are a fool.  MMORPGs have a very high failure rate.

 

How many kickstarter funded MMORPGs have launched?

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:35:02 PM#310
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by jtcgs

No real point in talking about it anymore Father_Jack. The word donation has a broader meaning now thanks to the laws of most countires giving tax write-offs based on donations and so many charities giving out "gifts" or "privileges" to donators, even when not asked.

I almost wish some would stop...nothing like continually getting beads, drawings, shirts and other things in the mail for donating to the native american foundation...its like, damn, use that money for them not me!

And this is MUCH closer to how kickstarter works.

The pledge tier rewards are gifts for your contribution.  Infact, the word 'pledge' is freequently used, and that is exactly what kickstarter is: a pledge drive

That is not how it works. The reason they call it a pledge, isyou pledge to give that money if it reaches its funding goal. If it doesn't reach its goal you give nothing. It's so people understand they give no money until it reaches it's goal, but they pledge to give it if it does. It's not a pledge drive.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7304

2/21/13 5:38:46 PM#311


Originally posted by Father_Jack

I KNOW its different.

Sorry, you don't.

We "all" are not trolling, you are just the lost soul that is being wrong here.

If there is a troll, it's you.

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5208

2/21/13 5:44:40 PM#312
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. 

 

You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.

 

 

 

 You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Daimonion69

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 29

2/21/13 5:45:10 PM#313
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Father_Jack

I KNOW its different.

 

Sorry, you don't.

We "all" are not trolling, you are just the lost soul that is being wrong here.

If there is a troll, it's you.

Sorry, but i agree to Father_Jack.

 

However... why are you discussing about definitions. I think, everybody knows what kickstarter is.

If not, go and RTFM!

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7304

2/21/13 5:46:33 PM#314


Originally posted by Daimonion69

I think, everybody knows what kickstarter is.

...apparently not.

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:51:20 PM#315

 


Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Father_Jack

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Father_Jack   The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.  
 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.
 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about. Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter.    You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project? Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.      
Except that the ToS isnt a guarantee.  If the money is spent, the money is spent.  It sounds good, but in practice getting your money back will be difficult (impossible if the creator bankrupts).   You dont 'expect'.  You hope.  If you expect something from a MMORPG kickstarter, you are a fool.  MMORPGs have a very high failure rate.   How many kickstarter funded MMORPGs have launched?

Of course it's not a guarantee there are no guarantees in life about anything. Go try and invest in the stock market and ask about their guarantee program.

 

It's up to each person to decide if they think the risk is worth it for them. You're right a $2mill MMO KS is probably more risky than a a $5k comis KS. But it is up to each person to decide what they want to do with their money.

But that is no reason for people in this thread to say KS is a scam, or that its free money people don't have to deliver on or aren't legal responsible for. Those things are just not true.

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:54:23 PM#316
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. 

 

You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.

 

 

 

 You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.

You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do.  You are wrong about everything.

 

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:56:30 PM#317
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Father_Jack

I KNOW its different.

 

Sorry, you don't.

We "all" are not trolling, you are just the lost soul that is being wrong here.

If there is a troll, it's you.

If you want to refute the facts I've shown you, by all means do. But just stating the same thing over and over again with no evidence doesn't make you right. You can say the sun goes around the earth and find 3 people to agree with you. Doesn't make it true.

  Father_Jack

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/13
Posts: 84

2/21/13 5:57:58 PM#318
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Daimonion69

I think, everybody knows what kickstarter is.


 

...apparently not.

QFT you clearly don't.

  Voiidiin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 827

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

2/21/13 6:00:36 PM#319

WOW !

I cannot believe you guys have been arguing the same points with mostly the same people for 7 pages. When do one of you decide... "ok my ego has had enough pontificating" and then just drop it ?

HOLY COW

Lolipops !

  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5208

2/21/13 6:00:40 PM#320
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack
Originally posted by zymurgeist
Originally posted by Father_Jack

 

The biggest argument agains what you are saying is the popularity of KS istself. If people just through money at it and never got anything back do you think it would still be as sucessful and popluar as it is? That is just simple logic man. You can't make a blanket statement that KS is some sort of scam or charity scheme. It's not.

 

 People give millions in blood and treasure  to the Red Cross every year expecting nothing back. What makes you think Kickstarter is different? It's a donation. They have no legal obligation to produce anything. You're really trying hard to justify a ludicrous proposition.

 I KNOW its different. I've been involved in dozens of KSers. You clearly have been involved in ZERO. I have never donated money or recieved a donation, I have aways expected to get something back or give something back, at atleast fair market value. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Words have meaning, you can't make words mean something different because you have some sort of agenda. Your continued inability to understand what the word donation means makes me think that you are all just Trolling because you want to hate on CU and help it fail by spreading misinformation about Kickstarter. 

 

You could not be more wrong about thier legal obligation. From the KS website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't care if you want CU to fail. Just stop spreading things that just aren't rue about KSer. Kickstarter is awesome and nothing like you have stated.

 

 

 

 You have not a clue what you're talking about. This has nothing whatsoever to do with CU. Go back read the definition of the word donation. Use the entire definition. Don't just pick out individual words and ignore the rest.

You were wrong, you said they have no legal obligation but they do.  You are wrong about everything.

 

 It says they "may" be sued. Not by kickstarter, donors are on their own there. Courts decide if there is a legal obligation not internet crowdsourcing sites.  That doesn't mean they ever have to actually complete the project or if they do that you'll own any part of it.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

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