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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Mark Jacobs/CU - Please read - Stealth mechanics like DAOC please

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189 posts found
  time007

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 390

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

 
OP  2/16/13 9:49:21 PM#121
Ok fanglo, I see what you mean now.  For those types of things, like a poison that should be cut in half, or like you said, some kind of 1-2 shot assassination trick, of course the people on the receiving end of that skill should have a say in changing it.  I was focused on subject of the post that I didnt see you were talking about things beyond that particular topic.

  lantesh1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/11
Posts: 31

2/16/13 9:50:11 PM#122
Originally posted by tom_gore

Invisibility... I mean "stealth" is a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all MMOs forever.

 

 

Not entirely, but it definitely needs to be retooled. It was terribly implemented in DAoC and stealth classes have only continued to get worse since WoW got a hold of them. They went from being something that relied heavily on dodge and fast/positional attacks to this amalgamation of crappy CC and burst damage.  Roaming packs of rogues in DAoC were complete garbage because there was absolutely nothing you could do about them short of throwing out someone who would get insta killed and then trying to grab one or two of them before they ran away and disappeared again.

  CluckingChicken

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/13
Posts: 54

2/16/13 10:39:43 PM#123
Time, I'm sure that in a few years from now, I will be one of your many victims, but you hit the nail on the head. Any arguments against stealth could be used against any other class and their mechanics. I don't like how difficult it is to kill a tank, but that's what they do, they tank. Even if I dislike it, I see it as necessary. Same with healers. I don't like how they can undo all of the damage I've done to their friends with very little effort. The guys against stealth dislike a class that can sneak up on them when they're careless, yet its an important aspect. If I'm a mage or healer sitting behind a large group of my allies, and theres no flanks against us, without stealthers, I'm completely safe from harm. How is that fun? Where's the challenge?
  tlear

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/07
Posts: 143

2/16/13 10:43:32 PM#124
Stealthers were hard to spec in first year? This is pure hilarity, when game opened and you could stealth between shot.. or 1 shot people without destealthing, or when they added RAs and you could get IP on a DF spamming SB. It took a while till stealther zergs formed but atleast on my server they were in full force by SI release.
  Satarious

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/08
Posts: 1045

2/16/13 10:44:39 PM#125
I, personally, have no stake in this fight.  But I can't tell you how much of a pain in the ass it was to play a cloth caster when Rogues were the flavor-of-the-month class.  I literally got a dagger in my backside every 2 minutes from some random rogue trying to make that quick kill.  Tanks, on the other hand, is a much less stressful career path when the world is overrun by rogues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  DAOWAce

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/12/03
Posts: 118

I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter.

2/16/13 10:51:29 PM#126
Originally posted by tom_gore

Invisibility... I mean "stealth" is a stupid mechanic that should be removed from all MMOs forever.

Agreed.

Unless it's a cloaking field on a stealth suit or something (sci-fi), or an invisibility spell (fantasy), the whole invisibility thing is a terrible mechanic.

Just make them slightly ethereal and crouch walk, that's how real stealth has always been!

DAOWAce Xfire Miniprofile
  Incomparable

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 803

2/17/13 2:25:22 AM#127

 

For RvR or wPvP, how does a game balance combat not to turn into a Zerg fest all time?

 

I think it's important to have an indepth discussion of combat, landscape and even possible rewards or risks to gear the thought process in the right direction. It's basically setting the tone of the discussion and discussing from that context. 

 

For example the tone is from a sand box Mmo. What are the definitions that we agree upon to gear the discussion to an agreed upon context. What are the rewards? Are their full loot from corpses?

 

Also strategy in the game. Is there a way to make combat in its natural state in the open world feel strategic and not just a Zerg fest? For example what if there are timers to certain alternative locations splitting up groups for missions to take down a fort. For example a fort has several secret entrances, and their importance can explain their existence, but in doing so, it adds strategy to seiging by allowing small parties to try to make difference by breaking through certain points.

 

Also combat in general, is it action based with some dodging? How are the classes balanced? Do all classes have a method to flee combat? Mage can teleport. Rogue go invisible. Tank can stun, but maybe is the most vulnerable forcing them to group, but also one of the most important classes for seiging. So how can a tank venture into some pve alone?

 

Maybe introduce detect stealth options. Or have NPC's alignment and traveling in safe areas to reach a destination but once in the open off the road are vulnerable.

 

There is a lot of context to agree upon before making too many specific recommendations.

 

For example, maybe rvr is meant to be about numbers. However, there can be tournaments help by the king to allow for strategic combat. 

 

Or what about side activities? How about something easy to add like gambling? 

 

The reason why something like gambling is important because it is an example of what is missing in Mmos imo. We need fun alternatives to a simulated reality which are also tied in with the game.

 

It keeps players interested, but also makes money have a fun alternative. Money in game should not only be about buying drive equipment or weapons/armor for combat but a multitude of other things such as gambling, bounties on other players, buying houses etc.

 

I am going to say as wonderful as rvr can be, and as indepth as crafting could be, that without fun money sinks that depth to the game such as gambling, player bounties, and player housing then this game will struggle too much.

 

Also, the game should target a mature audience. This the right direction for his 'smart' audience who will do research into a complex virtual reality. So there should be gore in the game, and profanity when it is fitting. I would say nudity as well, but that can be added later, I am not interested in nudity but a mature world that feels real.

 

A real world has gambling, bounties, gore and profanity. Maybe even make the game political and religious. Make each faction xenophobic to the other and against their beliefs as to add context and some faction pride.

 

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  JayFiveAlive

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/04/09
Posts: 488

2/17/13 2:36:40 AM#128

Mixed feelings myself on this, similar to MJ. Had some damn good times as a stealther and also hated playing against them.

 

In WAR my buddy and I rolled stealthers and in the PvP scenario things as soon as we joined our team would shout "Asoda and Apop are here, we win!" - and it was always a landslide. We would just stealth together and focus our targets and take people down so fast... two stealthers should not be able to wreak that much havoc, but we did. It felt great seeing people so excited to have us on their side! Damn those were some fun times. That was even the timed stealth or whatever! I can't imagine perma stealth, but either way there needs to be a balance...

 

I know Vanguard is not a PvP game, but the way they do stealth is pretty interesting. Everyone has a "stealth detection skill" and when you are near invis enemies, it slowly goes up - kind of as a warning, but also as you raise your skill level in it, you can see the white bodies of the invis enemies. Further you level it up, the further you can kind of detect invis peeps. I think that could work pretty well in a PvP way personally. My 2 cents...

 

I really hope CU has skil gaining in weapons, swimming, parry, dodge, etc. etc. stats limited by your level and class.

  Scilly

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 69

2/17/13 3:27:59 AM#129

IMO this is such a massive choice its gonna pee people off either way.

 

We are making a RVR game here and i  do understand the time contraints alot of people have and a perma stealth does give you a better chance to dip in and out of the game, you can afk at will, you just head to a zone wall where there is no traffic and afk wait for timers and come back. Hence they guy alot of pages back saying he didnt die in days, i could bet he prob only attacked when all his timers were up.

 

I think the real discussion should be how can we make it so that stealthers rather than sit waiting for stragglers outside of portal keeps or ambush zones, actually push hard into the enemy and cause mayhem within the keeps/ give feedback on numbers and possible oppurtunitys to out wit the enemy. DAOC never reward assasins for doing such action, and perhaps that should be looked at as a point of change.

 

As for archers with stealth i really think if they want them to have stealth there range should be shorter than daoc.

 

I really love the idea of camo as stealth but that would stop assasins and such ever pushing hard on the enemy, In the early days that was vital to stop them pesky healers hiding eveywhere free casting there beloved spread heals.

Edit; Its really hard to balance because you cant stop people from grouping on whateva they want, but having 8 people all invis and working toghter with massive burst dps and the element of surpirse, often agaisnt inferior numbers, is a quit point

  boxsnd

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 449

2/17/13 3:41:25 AM#130

I've said in the past that perma-stealth is cheap and needs to die, but after thinking about how the RvR foodchain worked in DAoC I changed my mind.

Stealthers are the main reason why soloers / small groups existed in DAoC. The biggest reason for a soloer/small group to go out of ATK towards AMG was to find stealthers to kill. Without perma-stealth, there would be no soloers, no small groups, only 8v8 and zerg vs zerg, and RvR would be a whole lot less exciting. 

 

tl;dr we need stealthers with perma-stealth and they need to be unwanted in RvR groups. Also CU must warn players that they are about to make a solo class at char creation.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Outis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 101

2/17/13 6:47:31 AM#131

“JayFiveAlive

            I know Vanguard is not a PvP game, but the way they do stealth is pretty interesting. Everyone has a "stealth detection skill" and when you are near invis enemies, it slowly goes up - kind of as a warning, but also as you raise your skill level in it, you can see the white bodies of the invis enemies. Further you level it up, the further you can kind of detect invis peeps. I think that could work pretty well in a PvP way personally. My 2 cents...”

I think having stealth detection similar to this would work for all players. Or perhaps you receive a message that stated “your being stalked” or “you feel a presents lurking in the shadows”. Then just PBAE no more rogue.

“Scilly

            I think the real discussion should be how can we make it so that stealthers rather than sit waiting for stragglers outside of portal keeps or ambush zones, actually push hard into the enemy and cause mayhem within the keeps/ give feedback on numbers and possible oppurtunitys to out wit the enemy. DAOC never reward assasins for doing such action, and perhaps that should be looked at as a point of change.”

This would be great for RvR.

“boxsnd

            tl;dr we need stealthers with perma-stealth and they need to be unwanted in RvR groups. Also CU must warn players that they are about to make a solo class at char creation.”

This is a good idea for rogues IF perma stealth is implemented. A true assassin should be a loner. RvR raid would still want them if nothing else for the scouting ability and intel.

Also, reading through other posts it seems a lot of individuals are afraid of stealth being OP’d from the RAs given in DAoC. Why not simply not allow those types of RAs for a stealth build? Mark already told use progression will not be the same as RAs were in DAoC. Who is to say that when building your character for stealth that the player has a much narrower tree to acquire abilities in, if CU uses the same spec type as DAoC or other MMOs?

  Darrgen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/10
Posts: 65

2/17/13 9:43:25 AM#132
Here is the way I think stealth could be done right. First of all for those of you who remember Warhammer's Morale abilities where when you fought you gained abilities through morale, the longer you fought, the more powerful the morale abilities you would recieve from morale 1 all the way to morale 4. My idea is simple. Have stealth sort of like DAoC where except you are able to be seen from a pretty good distance as a transparent form. It wouldn't be super long range that people could see you but it would be enough for them to be able to react and run before you could open on them. The benefit though is this. If you successfully do battle and are able to gain to morale 4 you can then use your morale ability and it grants you increased stealth much like oldschool daoc stealth for around 5-10 minutes. So if you keep active in killing people and not wait around for your abilities you are essentially able to have good stealth almost all the time.  Of course this means you are fighting more and have more of a chance of being spotted by others so it is all about the risk/reward. IMO this is the best way to do stealth. It's making stealthers earn good stealth rather than having it to open every fight.
  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2444

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

2/17/13 12:30:55 PM#133
Originally posted by keygan

I would like to see stealth like planetside 1. If u stand still ur invis. If u walk u can see stealthers if u look or they move by/near you. If they crawl walk it is very hard but not impossible to notice them. And if you run it drains ur stamina and is super easy to see. It also costs stamina to move in stealth so you have to either crawl walk or stop moving to regain stamina.  

Just an idea so it isn't just easy mode. But I could take it any way really

I agree with you. The stealth in Planetside was good.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  lightingbird

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/05/03
Posts: 106

Mostly known as Blackzorro

2/17/13 12:44:21 PM#134

Based on some of the hate posts, its clear that a good amount of people ahve nevger faced a stealthed player in a pvp world.  Good thing not adding stealth would kill a huge potental of income for this new game.  Meaning, stealth will be in the upcoming game.  Stealth is in almost every mmo.  Saying its going to break a game or this one is silly.  I question anyones experience and playstyle who is anti stealth. 

I mean seriously, people act like a stealther can kill a group of people alone or that they should dictate how a paying customer spends their time in a mmo.  Lets stop being silly. 

Also regarding this silly mode crap.  I can attest from experience that I argued with peopel who said it was easy mode.  I then challenged them to roll a stealther and come out to the areas that I would work alone or with Time.  Most of them couldnt get any kills and became frustrated really quick.  Easy mode, ha yea ok.  Let's see you do it successfully. 

  Raventree

Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 457

It is a double pleasure to gank the ganker.
-Raven Treeavelli

2/17/13 2:36:06 PM#135
As someone who hated stealthers for a decade and then finally gave up and started playing them, I am split in my feelings about stealth.  It is an unfair advantage and anyone who says otherwise is full of it.  On the other hand, it is a unique ability and as long as stealthers aren't so OP that they can pop out and kill someone with barely any chance to fight back, it can be balanced.  I play stealthers now mostly because I am sick of being ganked by them.  I wouldn't cry if the mechanic was removed altogether, but as long as someone is going to have an unfair advantage, it might as well be me.

Currently playing:
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Played:
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World of Warcraft, AoC

  shadevice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 71

2/17/13 2:46:53 PM#136

If enough guys invest in CU via kickstarter that want the original DAOC stealth than I'm sure that is how it would be. Not only because of the many voices being heard behind the scenes but because it seems Mark is all for past challenges and game play that isn't dumbed down.

As a past RVR player in daoc, stealthers or even a group of stealthers blocking a wall, say the alb wall in emain. They were never a threat to reasonable force of players, they simply picked off the lone wolfs or small 2-3 player groups. At the same time it created a nice element if you were some what vulnerable. A dangerous "oh crap" element. Are there stealthers around? who knows. Its nice having that sense of unknowing which creates excitment and anticipation. 

To most saying Stealth is an unfair advantage, perhaps but if you ever played a stealther than you know they take huge damage. Low armor class, low health etc...A skilled inf/sb/ns that could rotate poisons on multiple weapons was a tough foe but that also took more skill. A low skilled stealther died like a glass cannon. 

Ps. I don't play stealthers. But I am 100% for original DAOC stealth. 

  Ecoces

Elite Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 837

2/17/13 2:49:59 PM#137
haven't read the whole debate but stealth is a skill-less crutch that needs to die and be gone from MMOs.
  shadevice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/27/12
Posts: 71

2/17/13 3:03:30 PM#138
Originally posted by Ecoces
haven't read the whole debate but stealth is a skill-less crutch that needs to die and be gone from MMOs.

Negative. Its a playstyle. If you ever played classic DAOC you would know this. You would also know stealthers played scouting roles etc...The mechanic fit well in that game world. The game thrived with full untimed stealth. The only complainers were the occasional solo people who got ganked by a stealther. There was also stealth wars with-in the game, rival shadowblades hunting down an infiltrator in the area while non-stealth classes battled in open terrain. 

Again I didn't play a stealth back in classic daoc but not once ever minded the fact that they existed all around me. Did I ever venture out alone into the dangerous RVR area? sure but I knew there was a good chance that a stealther or two would jump me. But when I rolled around in my 8man wrecking crew we never once saw a stealther. They knew better. 

  replicant

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/04
Posts: 46

"Be resolute, fear no sacrifice and surmount every
difficulty to win victory." - Mao

2/18/13 4:55:19 AM#139
Most of us stealthers in DAoC were nice enough to leave you alone in open field, 8 mans, or zergs. However, we did control our bridges and docks with an iron fist! I miss my little kobbie spear hunter. QQ

Bear "replicant" Powell
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  CyborWolfTK

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 80

2/18/13 5:12:26 AM#140

 

These kinds of questions need polls.

 

 I agree, and support the DAOC style of stealther.

Not Op'd and not a useless gimp,

and that's exactly what they are.

 

 

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