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City State Entertainment | Official Site
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Camelot Unchained Forum » General Discussion » Kickstarter means 2015+

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38 posts found
  collekt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 201

2/08/13 4:38:51 PM#21
Originally posted by SuperNick

I'll be surprised if this ever comes out - Kickstarter projects as of late seem to be going into huge vaporware mode.

I do think Mark Jacobs and his team are a great bunch though so we'll see.

I must say that it seems it will be completed if the Kickstarter goes through, since he's putting up his own money (in addition to others). I don't know how much they will ask for from the Kickstarter, but I don't see how this of all things wouldn't get funded. Given the age of DAoC, most of the original fan base is made up of people who have jobs and thus would be more likely to put up some money. Obviously there will also be backers who never even played DAoC as well, but I just feel like a lot of people are looking for a game like this right now.

  Zinzan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1347

2/09/13 3:32:43 AM#22
Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by SuperNick

I'll be surprised if this ever comes out - Kickstarter projects as of late seem to be going into huge vaporware mode.

I do think Mark Jacobs and his team are a great bunch though so we'll see.

I must say that it seems it will be completed if the Kickstarter goes through, since he's putting up his own money (in addition to others). I don't know how much they will ask for from the Kickstarter, but I don't see how this of all things wouldn't get funded. Given the age of DAoC, most of the original fan base is made up of people who have jobs and thus would be more likely to put up some money. Obviously there will also be backers who never even played DAoC as well, but I just feel like a lot of people are looking for a game like this right now.

All good points but i wonder if the involvement of Mark Jacobs might put a lot of players off investing in the kickstarter given what he did to DAoC and WAR. This guy brings a certain amount of baggage that a lot of DAoC vets remember even today.

I won't invest on current information (no pve, me no likee), like you if the game is great i will sub and play, but im involved in two other kickstarters at the moment and both are far more interresting and viable than CU imo.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  meddyck

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1108

2/09/13 6:06:16 AM#23
Originally posted by Zinzan

All good points but i wonder if the involvement of Mark Jacobs might put a lot of players off investing in the kickstarter given what he did to DAoC and WAR. This guy brings a certain amount of baggage that a lot of DAoC vets remember even today.

I won't invest on current information (no pve, me no likee), like you if the game is great i will sub and play, but im involved in two other kickstarters at the moment and both are far more interresting and viable than CU imo.

Yes the fact that former DAOC players associate Mark with some of our least favorite parts of that game's history and WAR is a hurdle he'll need to overcome to get backing. But he can get past that by laying out in detail what he has in mind for the new game especially in regards to progression and itemization. I'm prepared to support the Kickstarter if he can show me he plans to make a game that embraces the spirit of DAOC's original RvR system.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  mmoski

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 263

2/09/13 6:45:47 AM#24

THIS !!!!!!

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

One thing to keep in mind (and I'll have a post about this as well), is that I want to get our backers into our game as early as possible to play it so we can iterate and build. I've learned a lot from watching what Notch did with MC as well as what some very successful games have done in Asia. I want to get these guys/gals in as soon as possible so they can help us make the game better. FYI, the Backers Beta will be free of any fee/charges (since I know somebody will ask so I might as well answer it now).

This is a good way to develop, CROWD FORGING is one of the most inspirational techniques to YET be fully visualised by developers & designers.

There won't be a demo because frankly, whatever we threw together right now would be smoke and mirrors and I won't waste my time and the players time by showing them something that is lame. We could use Unity (as we did for MoO) as the basis for a demo, take some time, build some cool looking models and go "See! It works!!!!" but that would be nonsense. That's the easy part. Building a client/server model that can handle thousands of player per server, large scale battles and a graphics engine that can accomodate all that without becoming a slideshow, that's the hard part and that takes time. That's why I'm not seeking all the money we'll need from Kickstarter and instead, putting up my own. I have faith we can do that but what I don't know yet is whether enough people will want to play this game. Getting the Kickstarter funded will prove to me that our core audience is there and willing to take a chance. With that in hand, more money comes in from myself and others.  People (including me of course) can say anything but what I'm willing to do is back it up with my own money. Hopefully people will see that as I intend, that I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, instead of my foot. :)

This is what I like to hear, NO smoke and mirrors, what I would like to see is video development diaries as you go mark, show those hardworking people, discuss the processes and issues to overcome, maybe even take a look at the roadmap system Planetside2 has recently added and use something similar.

I have no doubt that if youre transparent on design and development, people will back you !

  Adokas

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 204

2/09/13 7:01:35 AM#25

I'm definitely going to be supporting this game. I hope so much that Mark Jacobs vision will come true. I'm just starving for a good, solid PvP game.

Hope to see the Kickstarter soon. I want this game! :D

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/09/13 10:24:58 AM#26

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by SuperNick

I'll be surprised if this ever comes out - Kickstarter projects as of late seem to be going into huge vaporware mode.

I do think Mark Jacobs and his team are a great bunch though so we'll see.

I must say that it seems it will be completed if the Kickstarter goes through, since he's putting up his own money (in addition to others). I don't know how much they will ask for from the Kickstarter, but I don't see how this of all things wouldn't get funded. Given the age of DAoC, most of the original fan base is made up of people who have jobs and thus would be more likely to put up some money. Obviously there will also be backers who never even played DAoC as well, but I just feel like a lot of people are looking for a game like this right now.

All good points but i wonder if the involvement of Mark Jacobs might put a lot of players off investing in the kickstarter given what he did to DAoC and WAR. This guy brings a certain amount of baggage that a lot of DAoC vets remember even today.

I won't invest on current information (no pve, me no likee), like you if the game is great i will sub and play, but im involved in two other kickstarters at the moment and both are far more interresting and viable than CU imo.

That's perfectly fair. Wait and see what happens is perfectly logical approach, especially since the game will not have something that is important to you. I hope that when the game is released, you will try it. If not, thanks for playing both Dark Age of Camelot & Warhammer Online.

Originally posted by meddyck

Originally posted by Zinzan

All good points but i wonder if the involvement of Mark Jacobs might put a lot of players off investing in the kickstarter given what he did to DAoC and WAR. This guy brings a certain amount of baggage that a lot of DAoC vets remember even today.

I won't invest on current information (no pve, me no likee), like you if the game is great i will sub and play, but im involved in two other kickstarters at the moment and both are far more interresting and viable than CU imo.

Yes the fact that former DAOC players associate Mark with some of our least favorite parts of that game's history and WAR is a hurdle he'll need to overcome to get backing. But he can get past that by laying out in detail what he has in mind for the new game especially in regards to progression and itemization. I'm prepared to support the Kickstarter if he can show me he plans to make a game that embraces the spirit of DAOC's original RvR system.

As per above, that is fair. I do hope though that since I am going to be associated with the bad things in Dark Age/Warhammer that I also get credit for some of the good things since many of them (not all of course), were my ideas as well. Did I make some decisions on my own (both good and bad), yep. Did I make some decisions with the "help" of others, yep. Where there things in both MMORPGs that I didn't even know were in there, yep. MMORPGs on the scale of WAR are quite complicated beasts and no one person can know every system, sub-system, weapon, quest, etc. especially while they are also trying to run a company, work with EA, etc. After EA bought Mythic did I have as much control over the studio as I did when we were independent, of course not. Is it *my* responsibility to take the heat for all the above, yep (that's why so many other guys hide in the background). Frankly, your statement  in regards to what I need to do is dead on, lay out the game, the vision, etc.  and then judge for yourself whether our Kickstarter is worth backing. That's all I can ask other than to say that for better or worse, I'm running my own studio again and I'm not aiming to "put the band back together" if the Kickstarter funds. Like the game, hate the game, etc., CU will be the game I want to make and I do hope you will be one of the people who like it as well. I know you have been critical of me in the past and I do thank for you considering to back the Kickstarter and/or give me a chance to prove that I and CU deserve your patronage again.

Originally posted by Adokas

I'm definitely going to be supporting this game. I hope so much that Mark Jacobs vision will come true. I'm just starving for a good, solid PvP game.

Hope to see the Kickstarter soon. I want this game! :D

Thanks so much! I hope it comes true as well. :)

 

Mark

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/09/13 10:38:18 AM#27
Originally posted by mmoski

THIS !!!!!!

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

One thing to keep in mind (and I'll have a post about this as well), is that I want to get our backers into our game as early as possible to play it so we can iterate and build. I've learned a lot from watching what Notch did with MC as well as what some very successful games have done in Asia. I want to get these guys/gals in as soon as possible so they can help us make the game better. FYI, the Backers Beta will be free of any fee/charges (since I know somebody will ask so I might as well answer it now).

This is a good way to develop, CROWD FORGING is one of the most inspirational techniques to YET be fully visualised by developers & designers.

There won't be a demo because frankly, whatever we threw together right now would be smoke and mirrors and I won't waste my time and the players time by showing them something that is lame. We could use Unity (as we did for MoO) as the basis for a demo, take some time, build some cool looking models and go "See! It works!!!!" but that would be nonsense. That's the easy part. Building a client/server model that can handle thousands of player per server, large scale battles and a graphics engine that can accomodate all that without becoming a slideshow, that's the hard part and that takes time. That's why I'm not seeking all the money we'll need from Kickstarter and instead, putting up my own. I have faith we can do that but what I don't know yet is whether enough people will want to play this game. Getting the Kickstarter funded will prove to me that our core audience is there and willing to take a chance. With that in hand, more money comes in from myself and others.  People (including me of course) can say anything but what I'm willing to do is back it up with my own money. Hopefully people will see that as I intend, that I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, instead of my foot. :)

This is what I like to hear, NO smoke and mirrors, what I would like to see is video development diaries as you go mark, show those hardworking people, discuss the processes and issues to overcome, maybe even take a look at the roadmap system Planetside2 has recently added and use something similar.

I have no doubt that if youre transparent on design and development, people will back you !

I agree, Crowd funding/forging is a potentially huge change for the game industry, if we (the industry as a whole) doesn't screw it up. I'm both elated and terrified that something that can truly change the balance between publisher<->developer<->VC has come into existence but it can also be snuffed out if developers can't follow through on their promises. That is one reason I'm putting my own money into this project as well. I want to give our backers confidence that we are not going to take their money and then, a year later, come back for more. Our backers will truly start the process and then it is up to me and my fellow investors to finish it off. 

As to "NO smoke and mirrors", there won't be any with this project. If we have something to show, we'll show it, if we don't have anything worthwhile to show, then we won't show it. As to video development diaries, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Happy to show you our office (small but that's how I like it) and our team. Our backers will be part of the development process (not to enact a "design by committee") and will be able to talk to us through our private forums, participate in polls, contribute ideas, be in the stress test/alpha/beta,etc.

As I've said elsewhere, there is no guarantee that this Kickstarter will fund. I didn't help the process by declaring this a "niche game" with no PvE but I wanted to be transparent (as you suggest) and upfront with people. I'd rather this project not fund that make overblown promises that I know I can't keep and then cut stuff out or say "Please, we need more money, there's a company at steak here!" :) If enough people like our vision for a game and back us, fantastic. If not, so it goes.

Thanks for the feedback and support.

Mark

 

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6474

2/09/13 10:47:30 AM#28
Keep it up Mark. This type of communication is a first. I've never given for a project before, but a little down the line, I just might with this one. 
  collekt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 201

2/09/13 10:48:16 AM#29
I think people are holding too much of a grudge against Mr. Jacobs. He took all the heat for the things that went wrong because it was his place to do so, even though it sounds like some of it wasn't totally his fault. He has been through this process several times, and I'm sure he has learned a lot about what the players do and don't want in a game like this. We should all let the past go and give him a chance to at least fully share his vision for the game before condemning it because "OMG HE RUINED DAOC AND WAR." Everyone remembers the downfall, but no one wants to talk about the amazing aspects that he also brought to those games. He has made it clear that we will all know what to expect before being presented with the opportunity to buy into the Kickstarter, and frankly I can't think of anyone I'd trust more to create something like this given his resume.
  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1667

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

2/09/13 10:53:40 AM#30

and i dont think a good game could be done in less time anyway.

 

so, what's the problem? :)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 405

2/09/13 11:30:33 AM#31

Originally posted by bcbully
Keep it up Mark. This type of communication is a first. I've never given for a project before, but a little down the line, I just might with this one. 

Thanks, I'll do that. Whatever my faults, real or imagined, I have always tried to talk to the Community to get their feedback. I used to say that at Mythic "We might not always agree with what you said but we will always listen to you." and I'm planning on doing that again. I know that eventually I'll say something to piss someone off just as I also know that somebody will say something to piss me off. I also know that I'll do something to piss someone off, it comes with being a developer/designer. All I ask is that we disagree politely with no drama and/or threats and everything will be fine. I hope we get your support for our project but if not, thanks for considering us.

Originally posted by collekt
I think people are holding too much of a grudge against Mr. Jacobs. He took all the heat for the things that went wrong because it was his place to do so, even though it sounds like some of it wasn't totally his fault. He has been through this process several times, and I'm sure he has learned a lot about what the players do and don't want in a game like this. We should all let the past go and give him a chance to at least fully share his vision for the game before condemning it because "OMG HE RUINED DAOC AND WAR." Everyone remembers the downfall, but no one wants to talk about the amazing aspects that he also brought to those games. He has made it clear that we will all know what to expect before being presented with the opportunity to buy into the Kickstarter, and frankly I can't think of anyone I'd trust more to create something like this given his resume.

Thanks but when I was the CEO, the buck had to stop with me. I hold little regard for CEOs who blame everything on everyone else when they are sitting in the big chair. As CEO of Mythic (prior to the EA acquisition), I sat in the chair so it would be disengenous of me to say "So and so told me this" or "So and so did that" and pass the buck. All I ask is that if people are going to blame me for everything bad at Mythic prior to 2006, then they also be willing to give me some credit for the things we did right. I've apologized, more than once, for things that happened on my watch. I hope that closes the book on things and that people can focus on the future.  

I truly thank you for your kind words and support. If you or anyone else back the Kickstarter you will never once question whether my team and I are doing everything we can do to justify that support. One thing you can absolutely be sure of is that I will treat your backing the same way I treat my own money (since it will be in right there with your money) and if you've ever been to the old Mythic offices or have seen the photos of our current space, we spend wisely. No pool tables, ping-pong tables, buildout, etc. We built all our own desks (just like in the old days), we haggled and found a nice sub-let (again) at a below market rate., etc. I love being a start-up again.

Originally posted by Thane

and i dont think a good game could be done in less time anyway.

 

so, what's the problem? :)

I couldn't agree more.

 

Mark

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Galadourn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 1038

2/09/13 3:57:21 PM#32
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

There won't be a demo because frankly, whatever we threw together right now would be smoke and mirrors and I won't waste my time and the players time by showing them something that is lame. We could use Unity (as we did for MoO) as the basis for a demo, take some time, build some cool looking models and go "See! It works!!!!" but that would be nonsense. That's the easy part. Building a client/server model that can handle thousands of player per server, large scale battles and a graphics engine that can accomodate all that without becoming a slideshow, that's the hard part and that takes time. That's why I'm not seeking all the money we'll need from Kickstarter and instead, putting up my own. I have faith we can do that but what I don't know yet is whether enough people will want to play this game. Getting the Kickstarter funded will prove to me that our core audience is there and willing to take a chance. With that in hand, more money comes in from myself and others.  People (including me of course) can say anything but what I'm willing to do is back it up with my own money. Hopefully people will see that as I intend, that I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, instead of my foot. :)

Thanks to all for your questions/support. More answer OTW.

 

Mark

Mr. Jacobs,

 

I'm not a software expert , but why not purchase a license of an already existing client/server and graphics engine? Wouldn't that speed up development time a lot? You would have to fine-tune it ofcourse to fit your needs, and create all the props and assets, but that would be pretty straightforward.

For example Darkfall Online (published by Aventurine S.A.) has a very solid client/server package and a graphics engine that can support hundreds of players simultaneously. While the engine currently is not the latest word in graphics technology, I'm sure the cost of using such a license would be minimal and with the aid of talented programmers and good artists you could upgrade it to todays standards.

 

http://kck.st/Xo38HT

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2881

For the Queen!

2/09/13 4:00:32 PM#33
I wouldn't say it's that far, probably mid to late 2014.  They're not getting just money from kickstarter, they do have regular  investors as well.  At least that's what bill said :)

  MyTabbycat

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 297

2/10/13 1:17:12 PM#34
I think it's really cool that you (referring to Mark Jacobs here) are active in the community. I had entirely planned to dismiss this as soon as I heard of it simply because there is no PvE and I am not a PvP'er. However, I'm going keep an eye on CU and point people in your direction just because you really seem to care about your project and the community. I wish you luck with your endeavor and hope your game turns out the way you want it to.
  skyexile

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 701

2/11/13 4:17:37 AM#35

Given that they're entity PvP focused with no need for NPC or any of that sorta stuff, it should cut a significant amount of time from their development time from the typical MMO. depending on what they're using for an engine, development could be very quick.

ops: just saw that they're making their own. perhaps not a bad plan.....it would be a challenge to make something worse than some of the engines out there....hero engine*shudders*

SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  Storm_Fireblade

Novice Member

Joined: 2/11/13
Posts: 156

2/11/13 10:16:37 AM#36

I wouldn´t go so far to actually bet on any release-date, but I think we shouldn´t forget, that this isn´t some new studio with a bunch of amateurs getting their first title out. There is some experience here and cutting the PvE with all its developement-requirements does a lot to minimize the productioncosts and time.

I´m confident, like Mark "estimated", that it should be possible to play a solid beta somewhere in 2014 and personally thats fine with me. I always pray that someone out there has a solid design and isn´t going to release the game until its finished. Too many games failed because of that. Guessing from what Mark did write until now, I might finally see this dream becoming reality.

Therefore, not just Mark but CSE as whole, can count me in as backer, whether its being released 2014 or 2015.

Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/

  XAleX360

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/08
Posts: 350

2/11/13 3:05:47 PM#37
Originally posted by Galadourn
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

There won't be a demo because frankly, whatever we threw together right now would be smoke and mirrors and I won't waste my time and the players time by showing them something that is lame. We could use Unity (as we did for MoO) as the basis for a demo, take some time, build some cool looking models and go "See! It works!!!!" but that would be nonsense. That's the easy part. Building a client/server model that can handle thousands of player per server, large scale battles and a graphics engine that can accomodate all that without becoming a slideshow, that's the hard part and that takes time. That's why I'm not seeking all the money we'll need from Kickstarter and instead, putting up my own. I have faith we can do that but what I don't know yet is whether enough people will want to play this game. Getting the Kickstarter funded will prove to me that our core audience is there and willing to take a chance. With that in hand, more money comes in from myself and others.  People (including me of course) can say anything but what I'm willing to do is back it up with my own money. Hopefully people will see that as I intend, that I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, instead of my foot. :)

Thanks to all for your questions/support. More answer OTW.

 

Mark

Mr. Jacobs,

 

I'm not a software expert , but why not purchase a license of an already existing client/server and graphics engine? Wouldn't that speed up development time a lot? You would have to fine-tune it ofcourse to fit your needs, and create all the props and assets, but that would be pretty straightforward.

For example Darkfall Online (published by Aventurine S.A.) has a very solid client/server package and a graphics engine that can support hundreds of players simultaneously. While the engine currently is not the latest word in graphics technology, I'm sure the cost of using such a license would be minimal and with the aid of talented programmers and good artists you could upgrade it to todays standards.

 

 

I agree about purchasing a license (although definitely NOT that of Darkfall). Unreal Engine, CryEngine, HeroEngine, all these are great choices for MMORPGs. If CSE plans to build their own client/server package plus the graphics engine, I'm afraid the game won't come out before 2016 at the earliest. 

Founder, CEO & Editor in Chief of Worlds Factory, a brand new videogame and entertainment online publication.

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 1980

2/11/13 6:43:14 PM#38
Originally posted by Tayah

I really don't care if it's 2015, 2016, 2017.

Heck how about 2020, 2450, the year 3000!!!! 

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