If you look at the sheer size that Everquest was when it had Antonica, Kunark, Velious the game didn't need to be that much bigger from an 'ideal' perspective- the 'ideal' is that all this landmass could be developed further with additional quests, items, npcs (basically-content) But the ideal from a mmorpg maker's perspective is to add more and more expansions so as to make money. With this always in mind that more and more expansions have to be continually added, could it not therefore follow that it would inevitably lead to an erosion of the original game especially with the additional need to incent people to buy these new expansions- ie. with the 'gimmicks'.

What I'm saying is could Everquest ever have retained being the original game with continous expansions added to it? Could they have added extra levels, extra landmasses, extra areas without jeopardize of the original game? The original game as far as I see isn't the hardcoreness but the 'world' element and it's appeal like it's dungeons which really disappeared after Kunark or Velious. Would there be a risk with every new expansion of alienating players?

Any thoughts?

I understand where you are going with this but you have to look at the facts. SoE took over.

If Sigil stayed the owners, (same goes with Vanguard) I think things would have turned out WAY differentally.

Originally posted by Bdonedge

I understand where you are going with this but you have to look at the facts. SoE took over.

 

If Sigil stayed the owners, (same goes with Vanguard) I think things would have turned out WAY differentally.

Having a brain fart?  Sigil didn't even exist untill after EQ had gone downhill.  And despite the popular myth Sony was always the parent company of Verant.  Qeynos is "SonyEQ" spelled backwards and that's no accident.  I'm not fond of SOE but the facts are the facts.

To the original post:  EQ suffered from the same ticking time bomb that all progression games suffer from.  The only real goal of the game was leveling up and upgrading equipment.  So yes, it was inevitable that old content would become obsolete and they would have to add new content.

Could they have added new content without screwing things up so badly?  I think so.

Did they need so many expansions?  No I don't think they did.  After some point I think the world was large enough and they only hurt the game by increasing the size more.  But they loved milking people for more money.

But again, the problem was; how do you keep people playing after they have maxed out their character?  Their answer was to add more levels and more loot to the top.  Still, if they had tried hard to keep the original feel of the game in the new content it might not have been so bad.  But they didn't and as time went on the game drifted further and further away from what it had been.

There probably isn't any really good way to handle the question of how to keep maxed out characters playing in a game entirely based on character progression.  I've thought about and seen suggestions for a lot of different ideas.  Optional content in which you face perma-death or a character retirement system to recycle the player base back to the beginning to keep the world alive.  Lot's of GM events to keep things interesting (probably not practical at all).  

But ultimately this is the dilema faced by all linear games.  When you send people running down a one way road, what do you do when they reach the end of the road. 

Yea I am having a brain fart I said the wrong company.

Sorry about that.

Was it Verant that were the original developers?

Whoever it was, they were making the game and Sony was dealing with the business and if I remember correctly held the servers. Thats really about it.

This always an interesting question. How do you keep the game from getting stale without changing the things people like about a game? I agree with the poster above that Sony went too far and too fast with their expansions. On the other hand, the top guilds were blowing through content and demanding new challenges, so what do you do?

In my opinion it was Luclin and especially PoP that ruined the "old" game, and the "Wall of Slaughter" expansion (can't remember the name) that ruined the game completely. Around the same time as that expansion a lot of people quit to play EQ2, and then WoW, but for most of us the magic was gone anyway.

Once Brad Mcquaid left SOE and Smedley took creative control it was all downhill.

Originally posted by Bdonedge

Yea I am having a brain fart I said the wrong company.

Sorry about that.

 

Was it Verant that were the original developers?

Whoever it was, they were making the game and Sony was dealing with the business and if I remember correctly held the servers. Thats really about it.

Basically it was Verant but orignially it was called 989 studios (unless I'm having a brain fart too.  I think that's right).

And Smedley was the guy who actually hired Brad for the job.  But you are probably right that the "suits" didn't have much direct involvement in the game at first.  I wasn't there so I don't really know but my guess would be that the business guys mostly left the developers to do their thing at first.

Later on I think it's fairly obvious that the bean counters started sticking their noses in where they didn't belong.  When they saw the potential for squeezing a little more money out of the customers...and then a little more...and then a little more, with no regard for the long term damage they were doing.

But I don't hold Brad Mcquaid blameless in what happened to EQ.  In my opinion it was already heading down the wrong road before he left.

When they had that summit and invited all the raiders, it set the future of all EQ expansions.

In other words, raiders and developers worked hand-in-hand, from my understanding, to turn Everquest from a community and group game to a raider's paradise.  It changed the tone of EQ forever. 

When you think about how remarkably foolish it is to have a minority of your customer-base directing the future of your product, it is amazing it happened.

IMO what hurt EQ was a lack of major competition for a number of years.

Those times saw SOE milking us any which way...cutting GM support...making you sign up for Legends to get the type of service that was originally offered for your 9.95 per month. Throw in shipping unfinished/bugged expansions every 6 months, and folks were getting an attitude.

Then all of a sudden real competition hit in a few years time. WOW among others floored EQ users, and all of a sudden there were legitimate choices out there to play instead of ole EQ.

I think if SOE had been run differently over the years, things would be different for em.

IMO they have learned...but it was too late. The things they do now to make folks happy, should of been the very type of treatment they gave us when they had the monopoly.

I still subscribe to SOE products...but there are folks who wouldnt touch em if their life depended on it. We wont even get into the SWG vets....that broken record can be heard daily on their forums.

Blowing thru content is one thing, actually having big enough loot tables to make the kills worth repeating is another.

Why not expand those loot tables with a SUPER low percent insane drop (ala wow legendary) and then have a basic gambler mod on the bosses to drop items from a given pool.  Having armor as in WoW that was cloth, leather, mail, plate -- is cute, but that just means X boss = should boss, Y boss = legs boss....

Oh we are going for Y boss, I am not going -- I have pants already.  G'Night guys!

Instead --- gambler modify and Y boss may be arms, guns, head pieces, SUPER low legendary and someones epic line....

Now we are talking!

Everquest was, and is, a journey.  A journey in which you are not inhibited because you are forced to complete a series of cheesy quests, obtain gear from this dungeon then proceed to tier-2 dungeon until you finally reach tier-3 dungeon and get "leet" gear.

Everquest is not merely different from this.  I dare say it is more than this.  I currently play for sheer enjoyment because the game has interesting group content; I can obtain gear from a variety of places; and I am able to progress at a pace I want and in different ways (AA experience or regular experience).

I went golfing yesterday, and I could not explain to an amateur golfer how to swig properly.  I would be a horrible golf instructor.  It is feel, my grip, where I position my feet, and pararell, and knowing when I bent my right elbow and slightly my swing as I finish my swing.  In other words, Everquest just "feels" right to me because of many reasons.  Many games feel wrong to me for many reasons.  It is not easy to explain.

Original Everquest Opening Theme:

www.youtube.com/watch

So true ... very rarely was there a set progression.  Fear wasnt the step before Hate ... they were just two different options.  They didnt begin to do the .. this is the way to go BS until PoP ... this flag lets you go here.. then this one .. lets you go there.

Originally posted by nomadian

If you look at the sheer size that Everquest was when it had Antonica, Kunark, Velious the game didn't need to be that much bigger from an 'ideal' perspective- the 'ideal' is that all this landmass could be developed further with additional quests, items, npcs (basically-content) But the ideal from a mmorpg maker's perspective is to add more and more expansions so as to make money. With this always in mind that more and more expansions have to be continually added, could it not therefore follow that it would inevitably lead to an erosion of the original game especially with the additional need to incent people to buy these new expansions- ie. with the 'gimmicks'.

What I'm saying is could Everquest ever have retained being the original game with continous expansions added to it? Could they have added extra levels, extra landmasses, extra areas without jeopardize of the original game? The original game as far as I see isn't the hardcoreness but the 'world' element and it's appeal like it's dungeons which really disappeared after Kunark or Velious. Would there be a risk with every new expansion of alienating players?

Any thoughts?

If they didnt add new zones, people would have got bored and quit sooner.

As for upgrading existing co