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Darkfall: Unholy Wars Forum » General Discussion » Any more sand in the sandbox?

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62 posts found
  Hotjazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/08
Posts: 754

11/10/12 3:31:34 AM#41
Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I'm a bit curious here, what kind of  "sand" could Aventurine add to the PvP?

DarkFall certainly needs some additions to it's PvP, but if a game's sole focus is purely on a single feature (i.e PvP in this case) well you're not getting a sandbox, you're getting a PvP game.

 

If I were to compare DarkFall to a Sandbox, I'd say that Darkfall is a box with a small bucket and just enough sand to fill the bucket.

If I were to compare it to a Themepark, I'd say that DarkFall is a single ride with some fast food restaurants around it.

It's a one trick pony.

 

You've admitted it yourself, you only care about the PvP, and DarkFall (being a PvP MMORPG) is perfect for you,  so I guess it's fairly easy not to see why DarkFall is not viewed exactly as a sandbox. Because players looking to experience something other than PvP will be severely disappointed. That is exactly what happened with DF1, the sandbox players left while the PvPers remained. It's highly likely that DFUW will be no different.

I`m a bit tired by the anti-sandbox crowd.

What mmo ever made would you classify as a sandbox, and what makes that mmo a sandbox ?

 

As for the pvp sand. I would like the tailor to be able to make clan clothes, so it is easier to see friendly players in pvp. I would also like it to be a landfortress just as the sea fortress. The crafters should be able to chose the skin of the weapons they makes, so everybody didn`t use a justicebringer and we didn`t know the level of the weapon the enemy held.

 

Just because I focus on one single feature, doesn`t make the game less sandbox. If someone chose to take a different direction will be up to him. I played UO for 5 years, and ALL I did was pvp. It didn`t made UO less sandbox.

 

And yes, Darkfall is perfect if you like to feel something when you play a game. It forces you to make friends and socialize with other players.  I`m a grown up gamer, and I`m like a child waiting for christmas. Darkfall is for me the best game since UO. Some part is better and some are worse, but atleast it`s not the common wow clone.

 

At forumfall one player asked what Darkfall had to offer him, and I liked this answer from Phildragon:

death, glory, anger, laughter, full banks, empty banks, unpredictability,easy kills, Zergs, embarrassing deaths, stressful losses, wealth, fame, hatred, satisfaction, sense of achievement, personal vendettas, nemesis, friends, ally's, freedom, fear, suspense and fun

just to name a few, darkfall isnt just a game, its an emotional roller-coaster.

 

10 more days to wait.

  xDayx

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 713

11/10/12 4:21:14 AM#42
Originally posted by Hotjazz
Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I'm a bit curious here, what kind of  "sand" could Aventurine add to the PvP?

DarkFall certainly needs some additions to it's PvP, but if a game's sole focus is purely on a single feature (i.e PvP in this case) well you're not getting a sandbox, you're getting a PvP game.

 

If I were to compare DarkFall to a Sandbox, I'd say that Darkfall is a box with a small bucket and just enough sand to fill the bucket.

If I were to compare it to a Themepark, I'd say that DarkFall is a single ride with some fast food restaurants around it.

It's a one trick pony.

 

You've admitted it yourself, you only care about the PvP, and DarkFall (being a PvP MMORPG) is perfect for you,  so I guess it's fairly easy not to see why DarkFall is not viewed exactly as a sandbox. Because players looking to experience something other than PvP will be severely disappointed. That is exactly what happened with DF1, the sandbox players left while the PvPers remained. It's highly likely that DFUW will be no different.

I`m a bit tired by the anti-sandbox crowd.

What mmo ever made would you classify as a sandbox, and what makes that mmo a sandbox ?

 

As for the pvp sand. I would like the tailor to be able to make clan clothes, so it is easier to see friendly players in pvp. I would also like it to be a landfortress just as the sea fortress. The crafters should be able to chose the skin of the weapons they makes, so everybody didn`t use a justicebringer and we didn`t know the level of the weapon the enemy held.

 

Just because I focus on one single feature, doesn`t make the game less sandbox. If someone chose to take a different direction will be up to him. I played UO for 5 years, and ALL I did was pvp. It didn`t made UO less sandbox.

 

And yes, Darkfall is perfect if you like to feel something when you play a game. It forces you to make friends and socialize with other players.  I`m a grown up gamer, and I`m like a child waiting for christmas. Darkfall is for me the best game since UO. Some part is better and some are worse, but atleast it`s not the common wow clone.

 

At forumfall one player asked what Darkfall had to offer him, and I liked this answer from Phildragon:

death, glory, anger, laughter, full banks, empty banks, unpredictability,easy kills, Zergs, embarrassing deaths, stressful losses, wealth, fame, hatred, satisfaction, sense of achievement, personal vendettas, nemesis, friends, ally's, freedom, fear, suspense and fun

just to name a few, darkfall isnt just a game, its an emotional roller-coaster.

 

10 more days to wait.

I personally have my own definition of a pure sandbox and one of those things that DF lacks is player construction. And on a side note it has quests also thus making it, in my definition, not a pure sandbox.

So these 2 things

1) lack of construction/building/terraforming etc

2) has quests

 

  User Deleted
11/10/12 8:40:13 AM#43
Originally posted by Hancakes
Originally posted by CNUChavez
 

Fluff is that way --->

Have a nice trip then!

  User Deleted
11/10/12 8:51:51 AM#44
Originally posted by Hancakes
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Hancakes
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Hancakes

Trees that are only cosmetically different = Fluff

Trees that are cosmetically different and produce unique woods = Sand

So no, Darkfall is not adding more sand. That's the answer to OP's question.

So do you have access to information regarding UW the rest of us dont?  As there seems to be a great deal of diversity in the new screenshots.

Just going to highlight the relevant part.

And that is exactly what the OP was looking for...Fluff (keep backpeddling)  Who knows,  different racial strutures may produce different items in UW = Sand

 

So how do you know they added no new "sand" to UW?

 

At least you finally learned the difference between "Fluff" and "Sand" .

/win

 

 

You totally lost. You seem to have the least clue about the difference between sand & fluff of all in this thread.

OP did mention alot of sandbox elements but you attacked him with an arrogant "Fluff that way ----->"

 

Now you're meeting yourself in the door. Jeez.

 

/bye

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

11/10/12 9:47:52 AM#45
Everything indicates that there will be no much sand left in DF to call it a sandbox game anymore (DF 1 had the potential for one at least)...its a combat PvP Arena ...Quake on a persistant world..

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  MadnessRealm

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2717

Ignorance is Bliss.

11/10/12 10:21:34 AM#46
Originally posted by xDayx

I personally have my own definition of a pure sandbox and one of those things that DF lacks is player construction. And on a side note it has quests also thus making it, in my definition, not a pure sandbox.

So these 2 things

1) lack of construction/building/terraforming etc

2) has quests

 

Just going to comment on something here, I don't think the presence of quests denies a game it's classification of a sandbox. You could definitively have a sandbox with quests. The main difference is that in a sandbox, quests are a side thing to do whereas in a Themepark it's the game's main focus. In DarkFall's case, they use the quests to direct newer players around different areas and monsters to fight, and have some small amount of repeatable quests that requires to kill a mob "x" time for a reward, but by no mean is it a main focus.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  MadnessRealm

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2717

Ignorance is Bliss.

11/10/12 11:23:58 AM#47
Originally posted by Hotjazz
Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I'm a bit curious here, what kind of  "sand" could Aventurine add to the PvP?

DarkFall certainly needs some additions to it's PvP, but if a game's sole focus is purely on a single feature (i.e PvP in this case) well you're not getting a sandbox, you're getting a PvP game.

 

If I were to compare DarkFall to a Sandbox, I'd say that Darkfall is a box with a small bucket and just enough sand to fill the bucket.

If I were to compare it to a Themepark, I'd say that DarkFall is a single ride with some fast food restaurants around it.

It's a one trick pony.

 

You've admitted it yourself, you only care about the PvP, and DarkFall (being a PvP MMORPG) is perfect for you,  so I guess it's fairly easy not to see why DarkFall is not viewed exactly as a sandbox. Because players looking to experience something other than PvP will be severely disappointed. That is exactly what happened with DF1, the sandbox players left while the PvPers remained. It's highly likely that DFUW will be no different.

I`m a bit tired by the anti-sandbox crowd.

What mmo ever made would you classify as a sandbox, and what makes that mmo a sandbox ?

 

As for the pvp sand. I would like the tailor to be able to make clan clothes, so it is easier to see friendly players in pvp. I would also like it to be a landfortress just as the sea fortress. The crafters should be able to chose the skin of the weapons they makes, so everybody didn`t use a justicebringer and we didn`t know the level of the weapon the enemy held.

 

Just because I focus on one single feature, doesn`t make the game less sandbox. If someone chose to take a different direction will be up to him. I played UO for 5 years, and ALL I did was pvp. It didn`t made UO less sandbox.

 

And yes, Darkfall is perfect if you like to feel something when you play a game. It forces you to make friends and socialize with other players.  I`m a grown up gamer, and I`m like a child waiting for christmas. Darkfall is for me the best game since UO. Some part is better and some are worse, but atleast it`s not the common wow clone.

 

At forumfall one player asked what Darkfall had to offer him, and I liked this answer from Phildragon:

death, glory, anger, laughter, full banks, empty banks, unpredictability,easy kills, Zergs, embarrassing deaths, stressful losses, wealth, fame, hatred, satisfaction, sense of achievement, personal vendettas, nemesis, friends, ally's, freedom, fear, suspense and fun

just to name a few, darkfall isnt just a game, its an emotional roller-coaster.

 

10 more days to wait.

You don't have to look very far to know what Sandbox MMOs are, considering how many of those Vets there are on MMORPG.com.  UO, SWG, EVE are easy picks with no need to explain what makes them a sandbox (I at least assume you've heard of them...)

 

I also don't mean that because YOU only focus on a single feature that it doesn't make the game less a sandbox. It's if the Developers only focus on a single feature that makes it less a sandbox. My point is that because you only focus on a single feature when you play, and that this feature is enjoyable,  you don't see the rest of the game because you don't care about it.

I've said it many times, a sandbox allows players to focus on various different activities and to be good at it. UO had skill caps so dedicated crafters were well-known because it was time-consuming and not everybody could do it. In DarkFall, everyone is everything, which in turns forces everyone else to also be everything in order to compete. DarkFall's crafting system was a major fail on top of that, so many armor sets that aren't even complete, it's mind-boggling. Then you have housing, other than having to pay taxes and act as capturable points for Clans, housing is static mess that requires a Deed to be looted from a Chaos Chest (rare) or a monster (even rarer), same goes for Vendor NPCs which must be looted. Beyond that, housing serves strictly as a teleport point. There's no depth or purpose to anything in DarkFall. Even Clan warfare is a shallow mess, players are so bored that whenever there was a siege going on they'd try to join in anyway possible because there was nothing else to do. Then one side or the other would later log on to forum to cry about getting zerged.

PvP in of itself was good in DarkFall however, but it's just that, a PvP MMORPG.

 

Finally, on that last paragraph, any game can offer the same. It merely depends on your taste.

 

 

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Hancakes

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/11
Posts: 1106

11/10/12 7:30:06 PM#48
Originally posted by Mr_C

And that is exactly what the OP was looking for...Fluff (keep backpeddling)  Who knows,  different racial strutures may produce different items in UW = Sand

 

So how do you know they added no new "sand" to UW?

 

At least you finally learned the difference between "Fluff" and "Sand" .

/win

 

 

You totally lost. You seem to have the least clue about the difference between sand & fluff of all in this thread.

OP did mention alot of sandbox elements but you attacked him with an arrogant "Fluff that way ----->"

 

Now you're meeting yourself in the door. Jeez.

 

/bye

 How cute...Do you have anything to add to the actual discussion?   I gave explicit examples of fluff and sand throught this post.

Thanks for dropping by

  Hancakes

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/11
Posts: 1106

11/10/12 7:31:14 PM#49
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Everything indicates that there will be no much sand left in DF to call it a sandbox game anymore (DF 1 had the potential for one at least)...its a combat PvP Arena ...Quake on a persistant world..

So how is UW going to have less sand? What are these indicators you speak of?

  chorizo110

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 5

11/11/12 5:11:43 AM#50
Originally posted by Hancakes
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Everything indicates that there will be no much sand left in DF to call it a sandbox game anymore (DF 1 had the potential for one at least)...its a combat PvP Arena ...Quake on a persistant world..

So how is UW going to have less sand? What are these indicators you speak of?

 

@hancakes I agree with you, DF1 didnt have thaaaaat much sand in it but the amount of sand in DFUW decreased in no way!

There are no changes to the "Sandbox-mechanics".

  Anthara

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 77

11/11/12 5:34:33 AM#51

When you guys mature a bit more, you will know that when you are discussing about something if it is, or its not... probably it isn't.

 

  Hancakes

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/11
Posts: 1106

11/11/12 5:48:21 AM#52
Originally posted by Anthara

When you guys mature a bit more, you will know that when you are discussing about something if it is, or its not... probably it isn't.

 

Thanks Yoda

Stopped they must be...

  xpiher

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3314

11/12/12 9:23:00 AM#53
Crafting has been made more sandboxy. There's a few systems like mercenary contract and an alternate leveling system (more things are done to level your character than craft and hit mobs). other than that, we don't know if they added more sand. We just know that they didn't change cities or houses much. These things have to remain static to avoid being abused, cut back on server load, etc. 


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

11/12/12 9:44:19 AM#54
Originally posted by xpiher
Crafting has been made more sandboxy. There's a few systems like mercenary contract and an alternate leveling system (more things are done to level your character than craft and hit mobs). other than that, we don't know if they added more sand. We just know that they didn't change cities or houses much. These things have to remain static to avoid being abused, cut back on server load, etc. 

 

Mercenaries have been in game since launch. Its nothing new, it was player driven before without any in game supporting tools. What they did in DF:UW is they added now some tool for this.

There isn't a single feature that could be called sandboxy, is entirely new  that has been added and wasn't before  from the info we now yet.  

What we know for sure is that they did remove sandbox with some changes. 100% safe zones are now in which dont let you any freedom, limbo system and global AH can be added to those sandbox destroying changes.

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1174

11/12/12 9:47:26 AM#55
I'd say swtor floped because it was bascally a exact carbon copy of world of warcraft just set in the starwars universe. That and the devs never delivered really anything they promised.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  xpiher

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/08
Posts: 3314

11/12/12 9:49:50 AM#56
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Originally posted by xpiher
Crafting has been made more sandboxy. There's a few systems like mercenary contract and an alternate leveling system (more things are done to level your character than craft and hit mobs). other than that, we don't know if they added more sand. We just know that they didn't change cities or houses much. These things have to remain static to avoid being abused, cut back on server load, etc. 

 

Mercenaries have been in game since launch. Its nothing new, it was player driven before without any in game supporting tools. What they did in DF:UW is they added now some tool for this.

There isn't a single feature that could be called sandboxy, is entirely new  that has been added and wasn't before  from the info we now yet.  

What we know for sure is that they did remove sandbox with some changes. 100% safe zones are now in which dont let you any freedom, limbo system and global AH can be added to those sandbox destroying changes.

 

Link on global auction houses? Last thing I read was that you had to be in the area to buy the item and it could be delivered to you, but its risky and expensive. The 100% safe zone thing was a necessary evil. Too many people will griefed out of the game the first few weeks of both NA and EU launch. I'm hoping they allow unlimited war decs now though. 

Limbo isn't really anti-sandbox IMO. 


Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher

  User Deleted
11/12/12 10:11:50 AM#57

No sand will be added.

 

They are basically taking 1.0 and putting the focus on more arena style roaming pvp encounters.  They are adjusting progression based on feedback from all the macroers so no more grind, easy progression.  Yeah craftings going to work differently though.

Im expecting, for the most part, 1.0 with shiney lighting, a better but buggy UI and GUI, and wow style "look im at endgame after a month of casual play" progression.  All the same major glaring problems will exist...mainly a FPS slapped into what could be an epic sandbox..

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

11/12/12 11:01:19 AM#58
Originally posted by xpiher
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Originally posted by xpiher
Crafting has been made more sandboxy. There's a few systems like mercenary contract and an alternate leveling system (more things are done to level your character than craft and hit mobs). other than that, we don't know if they added more sand. We just know that they didn't change cities or houses much. These things have to remain static to avoid being abused, cut back on server load, etc. 

 

Mercenaries have been in game since launch. Its nothing new, it was player driven before without any in game supporting tools. What they did in DF:UW is they added now some tool for this.

There isn't a single feature that could be called sandboxy, is entirely new  that has been added and wasn't before  from the info we now yet.  

What we know for sure is that they did remove sandbox with some changes. 100% safe zones are now in which dont let you any freedom, limbo system and global AH can be added to those sandbox destroying changes.

 

Link on global auction houses? Last thing I read was that you had to be in the area to buy the item and it could be delivered to you, but its risky and expensive. The 100% safe zone thing was a necessary evil. Too many people will griefed out of the game the first few weeks of both NA and EU launch. I'm hoping they allow unlimited war decs now though. 

Limbo isn't really anti-sandbox IMO. 

 

a) You can bring up the trade window on any place of the world.  Smart people will do this in the 100% safe area.

b) you have the choice that every item will be delivered to your location. Smart people will do this for every valuable item.

You see global and 100% safe, a global AH.

The point isn't btw if its needed or not , the point in discussion is if it is sandbox. Global info on markets is not sandbox, staying safe in 100% safe area checking all areas in game  isn't sandbox and having the option that everything is delivered to you isn't also very sandboxy.

Same goes for the 100% safe areas, the point isn't if they are necessary or not but if they are a sandbox solution. Would have been not sandboxy to have a working alignement system and offer blue players incentives to police the newbie cities ? For example offer players a carreer  at NPC cities  up to become a major ?  that sounds more like sandbox to me..

Limbo isn't anti-sandbox ? So putting away any need for organization and preparatiion and letting any army fight everywhere in the world without risk is samething you call a well implemented sandbox idea ?   

 

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

11/12/12 11:40:54 AM#59


Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by xpiher Crafting has been made more sandboxy. There's a few systems like mercenary contract and an alternate leveling system (more things are done to level your character than craft and hit mobs). other than that, we don't know if they added more sand. We just know that they didn't change cities or houses much. These things have to remain static to avoid being abused, cut back on server load, etc. 
  Mercenaries have been in game since launch. Its nothing new, it was player driven before without any in game supporting tools. What they did in DF:UW is they added now some tool for this. There isn't a single feature that could be called sandboxy, is entirely new  that has been added and wasn't before  from the info we now yet.   What we know for sure is that they did remove sandbox with some changes. 100% safe zones are now in which dont let you any freedom, limbo system and global AH can be added to those sandbox destroying changes.
  Link on global auction houses? Last thing I read was that you had to be in the area to buy the item and it could be delivered to you, but its risky and expensive. The 100% safe zone thing was a necessary evil. Too many people will griefed out of the game the first few weeks of both NA and EU launch. I'm hoping they allow unlimited war decs now though.  Limbo isn't really anti-sandbox IMO. 
 

a) You can bring up the trade window on any place of the world.  Smart people will do this in the 100% safe area.

b) you have the choice that every item will be delivered to your location. Smart people will do this for every valuable item.

You see global and 100% safe, a global AH.

The point isn't btw if its needed or not , the point in discussion is if it is sandbox. Global info on markets is not sandbox, staying safe in 100% safe area checking all areas in game  isn't sandbox and having the option that everything is delivered to you isn't also very sandboxy.

Same goes for the 100% safe areas, the point isn't if they are necessary or not but if they are a sandbox solution. Would have been not sandboxy to have a working alignement system and offer blue players incentives to police the newbie cities ? For example offer players a carreer  at NPC cities  up to become a major ?  that sounds more like sandbox to me..

Limbo isn't anti-sandbox ? So putting away any need for organization and preparatiion and letting any army fight everywhere in the world without risk is samething you call a well implemented sandbox idea ?   

 




Sandbox and safety have nothing to do with each other. You can have a 100% safe from PvP sandbox MMORPG. Looking at it from a different point of view, adding full loot PvP to WoW wouldn't make it a sandbox. Taking full loot PvP away from a sandbox game wouldn't make that game a theme park.

However, stuff like this does have everything to do with attracting more players to your game, and keeping more existing players playing.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

11/12/12 12:23:53 PM#60
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


 




Sandbox and safety have nothing to do with each other. You can have a 100% safe from PvP sandbox MMORPG. Looking at it from a different point of view, adding full loot PvP to WoW wouldn't make it a sandbox. Taking full loot PvP away from a sandbox game wouldn't make that game a theme park.

However, stuff like this does have everything to do with attracting more players to your game, and keeping more existing players playing.

 

 

Sandbox and safety have to do with each other if players are allowed and become incentives and have the freedom and the option for it,  so safety can becomes part of gameplay.

Instead of letting static programm code decide which is safe and which is not , you can implement smart gameplay mechanics so it can work that players guard a area. Its not impossible. I even post example of mechanics that are sandbox . What DF:UW implmentes is a lazy shortcut because the devs lacks vision and talent to create sandbox games.

 

-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

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