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8 posts found
  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2832

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  7/10/13 11:00:47 PM#1

I've asked around on the bethsoft forums and a few other forums about how to make the MMO version as true to the single player experience as possible and one of the things always mentioned is "The Lore".   So today I watched a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKL2bvTH63M&feature=youtu.be and if you skip ahead to the 3:38 mark the interviewer asks "now within the MMO how are you trying to maintain the Elder Scrolls experience but keep it within an MMO"  Brian Wheeler responds with the Lore.  I submit to you, that Lore is not enough and the reason is found within one of my other threads:

You can not make an Elder Scrolls Online game and remove all the features that make an Elder Scrolls game fun and rewarding.  Like killing NPC's, placing baskets over shopkeepers heads and robbing them blind, dragging the bodies of your slain and placing them in awkward but funny poses, rolling 10,000 cabbages or cheese wheels down the side of the Throat of the World, or here's another, "mod" new armor skins or weapons skins. Try out new combat mods, or mod in general (that's where the majority of the longevity of Skyrim comes from once the main story line is done)  Or how about decorate a house, amass a library of the 800+ books in Skyrim.  There is so many things in the single player game that can't be done in an MMO because of the A, the persistence, B, the rendering and latency issue and C, the inability to allow that much freedom to potentially grief others.

Look at those things, that is only a partial list on why ESO will not be any online Skyrim!!!!!! Please get this through your heads, in order for an online MMO to work it must contain ideals, systems and philosophies that work on a grand scale and on a persistent scale and on a massive scale therefore you need systems and ideals not found in a single player game that encompasses many and varied play styles.  When a studio refuses to understand that you need to replace all those things from the single player experience with ideals and systems that work for an MMO experience and they don't replace them, they run the risk of creating another failed MMO in the same vain as a SWTOR.  Call it an Elder Scrolls online game all you want but you will, trust me when I say, the majority of the player base will get bored because it lacks things your used to having In the single player experience and nothing was added to replace it hence the need for the MMO version to have many and varied systems in place just as robust and fun as the single player experience.  Right now ESO does not have that, all it has is combat, questing and character progression......it is missing the little things that make an MMO alive, rewarding, thrilling all the systems needed to promote longevity.

Read this, understand this, your vision is blinded by things you do not know of.  If you want to have the best online version of Elder Scrolls, it needs to have the best MMO features to replace those systems and design principles that can't possibly be placed in the online version.  You went to bat for the inclusion of TES style First Person View, you went to bat to include the ability to see and visit the other 2 factions territories so please go to bat for the game and demand it include proper MMO systems!!! This is the crux of my argument and it is one that is beyond debate because I have 6-7 years of failed MMO design on my side, those same failed MMO designs thought they could get away with the same type of skimping of systems that you are now advocating for in the online version of Elder Scrolls.  What you need to advocate for is the best MMO, not the best Elder Scrolls game.  And if you do not, then do not come crying to these forums 3-6 months post release of ESO wondering what went wrong when thousands of the MMO enthusiasts have fled.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  superconducting

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 740

7/16/13 7:32:54 PM#2

I hear this kind of argument on both sides all too often.

One guy says "Please deliver that Elder Scrolls experience to infinity."

While another guy says "Please don't forget about the MMOers, the game won't last otherwise."

 

So who's right? The answer is BOTH are right. It needs to be AUTHENTIC ELDER SCROLLS game that has all the systems in place to be a GREAT MMO. Something like "Skyrim Online" is what they should be and are shooting for.

 

They can't skimp at all on Elder Scrolls stuff (lore, immersion, etc) because they will easily lose that camp of fans.

And they can't cut corners with online capabilities (PvP, endgame content, etc) because they will end up with another SWTOR.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17615

7/16/13 7:38:46 PM#3
Originally posted by azzamasin

I've asked around on the bethsoft forums and a few other forums about how to make the MMO version as true to the single player experience as possible and one of the things always mentioned is "The Lore".   So today I watched a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKL2bvTH63M&feature=youtu.be and if you skip ahead to the 3:38 mark the interviewer asks "now within the MMO how are you trying to maintain the Elder Scrolls experience but keep it within an MMO"  Brian Wheeler responds with the Lore.  I submit to you, that Lore is not enough and the reason is found within one of my other threads:

You can not make an Elder Scrolls Online game and remove all the features that make an Elder Scrolls game fun and rewarding.  Like killing NPC's, placing baskets over shopkeepers heads and robbing them blind, dragging the bodies of your slain and placing them in awkward but funny poses, rolling 10,000 cabbages or cheese wheels down the side of the Throat of the World, or here's another, "mod" new armor skins or weapons skins. Try out new combat mods, or mod in general (that's where the majority of the longevity of Skyrim comes from once the main story line is done)  Or how about decorate a house, amass a library of the 800+ books in Skyrim.  There is so many things in the single player game that can't be done in an MMO because of the A, the persistence, B, the rendering and latency issue and C, the inability to allow that much freedom to potentially grief others.

Look at those things, that is only a partial list on why ESO will not be any online Skyrim!!!!!! Please get this through your heads, in order for an online MMO to work it must contain ideals, systems and philosophies that work on a grand scale and on a persistent scale and on a massive scale therefore you need systems and ideals not found in a single player game that encompasses many and varied play styles.

 

Sounds to me that they do understand the second highlighted portion and that is why they don't put in the first highlighted portion. They wll put in systems that make sense for a large portion of players playing at the same time. rolling cheese down a hill is not one of these things.

The things that you "think" are the essence of an elder scrolls game are not the same things that I think are "the essence".

Also, you can't kill anybody you want  since Oblvion.

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2832

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

 
OP  7/17/13 2:05:11 AM#4
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by azzamasin

I've asked around on the bethsoft forums and a few other forums about how to make the MMO version as true to the single player experience as possible and one of the things always mentioned is "The Lore".   So today I watched a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKL2bvTH63M&feature=youtu.be and if you skip ahead to the 3:38 mark the interviewer asks "now within the MMO how are you trying to maintain the Elder Scrolls experience but keep it within an MMO"  Brian Wheeler responds with the Lore.  I submit to you, that Lore is not enough and the reason is found within one of my other threads:

You can not make an Elder Scrolls Online game and remove all the features that make an Elder Scrolls game fun and rewarding.  Like killing NPC's, placing baskets over shopkeepers heads and robbing them blind, dragging the bodies of your slain and placing them in awkward but funny poses, rolling 10,000 cabbages or cheese wheels down the side of the Throat of the World, or here's another, "mod" new armor skins or weapons skins. Try out new combat mods, or mod in general (that's where the majority of the longevity of Skyrim comes from once the main story line is done)  Or how about decorate a house, amass a library of the 800+ books in Skyrim.  There is so many things in the single player game that can't be done in an MMO because of the A, the persistence, B, the rendering and latency issue and C, the inability to allow that much freedom to potentially grief others.

Look at those things, that is only a partial list on why ESO will not be any online Skyrim!!!!!! Please get this through your heads, in order for an online MMO to work it must contain ideals, systems and philosophies that work on a grand scale and on a persistent scale and on a massive scale therefore you need systems and ideals not found in a single player game that encompasses many and varied play styles.

 

Sounds to me that they do understand the second highlighted portion and that is why they don't put in the first highlighted portion. They wll put in systems that make sense for a large portion of players playing at the same time. rolling cheese down a hill is not one of these things.

The things that you "think" are the essence of an elder scrolls game are not the same things that I think are "the essence".

Also, you can't kill anybody you want  since Oblvion.

Have you any insight as to what these MMO systems they have implemented are?  Because all I see is Story, Progression and loot grind.  AFAIK Zenimax hasn't implemented any systems or structures to support longevity in an MMO.  All I have heard them talk about is a new twist on an old ideal, not exactly whetting my appetite for an immersive MMO.

 

As I said, those little things that keep people playing Skyrim are not present for good reason because they don't work in an MMO, however a game needs to exchange those little things for MMO like activities to promote longevity else you get another SWTOR. 

 

MMO can not exist on Story, Leveling and loot grinds alone.  Especially the PvE side of the equation.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17615

7/17/13 5:09:34 PM#5
Originally posted by azzamasin
 

Have you any insight as to what these MMO systems they have implemented are?  Because all I see is Story, Progression and loot grind.  AFAIK Zenimax hasn't implemented any systems or structures to support longevity in an MMO.  All I have heard them talk about is a new twist on an old ideal, not exactly whetting my appetite for an immersive MMO.

 

As I said, those little things that keep people playing Skyrim are not present for good reason because they don't work in an MMO, however a game needs to exchange those little things for MMO like activities to promote longevity else you get another SWTOR. 

 

MMO can not exist on Story, Leveling and loot grinds alone.  Especially the PvE side of the equation.

Well, let's look at it.

We currently know that this is a robust 3 way pvp system with territory control,. they also claim that it is a system where there is pride in ownership.

How that actually manifests itself will answer a lot of questions. I personally liked the lineage 2 system but I also know that might not be enough to scratch the itch of multiple guilds in a faction based game. The Warhammer system was crap as it was just about flipping keeps. So they say it's about taking and holding keeps. That is a system that can keep the game spinning for quite a while.

Secondly there is crafting and economy. We do know that crafting plays an important role and that there are going to be variances in weapons/armor. I don't know if there is a way to take gear out of the system. But certainly, at least up front, having a robust crafting system that allows for different types of gear can keep the crafters and sellers in the game for quite some time. Especially if it supports the pvp side of the equation.

Lastly there are their adventure zones.

we don't know much about them and before they announced the change in release date they said these zones would not be ready by launch.

I suspect that after beta feedback they realized that they had to have "more" added to the game to keep players engaged.

So if those are done then those can be a way to keep pve players engaged "depending" on how they are implemented.

 

  chaintm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/04
Posts: 980

"Shutting down threads sense 2004"

7/17/13 9:54:58 PM#6

Personally I think someone said it best in another thread and to me at least, this is ESO....

 

"The game has an identity crisis"

 

That really to me is the exact reason i can not get thrilled about the title, to many rare responses like ...., could be coming, not in yet or unknowns. Ask for one direct answer and it becomes some sort of long description on how that answer would be better then any.

The only true one full response I remember well was from an article in PCGamer Mailed Edition, that the producer was quoted saying " This is not Skyrim, if you want to play Skyrim play Skyrim". That's about the only streight answer I have read sense knowing about this title.

"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2668

110100100

7/17/13 11:41:56 PM#7


Originally posted by azzamasin
I've asked around on the bethsoft forums and a few other forums about how to make the MMO version as true to the single player experience as possible and one of the things always mentioned is "The Lore".   So today I watched a new video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKL2bvTH63M&feature=youtu.be and if you skip ahead to the 3:38 mark the interviewer asks "now within the MMO how are you trying to maintain the Elder Scrolls experience but keep it within an MMO"  Brian Wheeler responds with the Lore.  I submit to you, that Lore is not enough and the reason is found within one of my other threads:

You can not make an Elder Scrolls Online game and remove all the features that make an Elder Scrolls game fun and rewarding.  Like killing NPC's, placing baskets over shopkeepers heads and robbing them blind, dragging the bodies of your slain and placing them in awkward but funny poses, rolling 10,000 cabbages or cheese wheels down the side of the Throat of the World, or here's another, "mod" new armor skins or weapons skins. Try out new combat mods, or mod in general (that's where the majority of the longevity of Skyrim comes from once the main story line is done)  Or how about decorate a house, amass a library of the 800+ books in Skyrim.  There is so many things in the single player game that can't be done in an MMO because of the A, the persistence, B, the rendering and latency issue and C, the inability to allow that much freedom to potentially grief others.

Look at those things, that is only a partial list on why ESO will not be any online Skyrim!!!!!! Please get this through your heads, in order for an online MMO to work it must contain ideals, systems and philosophies that work on a grand scale and on a persistent scale and on a massive scale therefore you need systems and ideals not found in a single player game that encompasses many and varied play styles.  When a studio refuses to understand that you need to replace all those things from the single player experience with ideals and systems that work for an MMO experience and they don't replace them, they run the risk of creating another failed MMO in the same vain as a SWTOR.  Call it an Elder Scrolls online game all you want but you will, trust me when I say, the majority of the player base will get bored because it lacks things your used to having In the single player experience and nothing was added to replace it hence the need for the MMO version to have many and varied systems in place just as robust and fun as the single player experience.  Right now ESO does not have that, all it has is combat, questing and character progression......it is missing the little things that make an MMO alive, rewarding, thrilling all the systems needed to promote longevity.

Read this, understand this, your vision is blinded by things you do not know of.  If you want to have the best online version of Elder Scrolls, it needs to have the best MMO features to replace those systems and design principles that can't possibly be placed in the online version.  You went to bat for the inclusion of TES style First Person View, you went to bat to include the ability to see and visit the other 2 factions territories so please go to bat for the game and demand it include proper MMO systems!!! This is the crux of my argument and it is one that is beyond debate because I have 6-7 years of failed MMO design on my side, those same failed MMO designs thought they could get away with the same type of skimping of systems that you are now advocating for in the online version of Elder Scrolls.  What you need to advocate for is the best MMO, not the best Elder Scrolls game.  And if you do not, then do not come crying to these forums 3-6 months post release of ESO wondering what went wrong when thousands of the MMO enthusiasts have fled.


i don't agree with your opinion of what makes ES games fun. for me, killing guards and doing pointless crap like that is something i only did when i was bored.

from the sounds of it, it has most of the things i find fun about ES games and it sounds like it has a good pvp system as well IMO

not to mention the crafting sounds pretty damn good too, which i am all about.

so yeah, its a matter of opinion and you may as well forget about "longevity" if you mean to play this mmo for years, its not going to happen.

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6672

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

7/17/13 11:53:17 PM#8
I will keep on saying this until I am blue in the face. We do not need an Elder Scrolls mmo. What we need is Skyrim with multiplayer via 4 player coop like Borderlands. Heck  I would even take an instanced ES game like the original Guild Wars with a lobby for social interaction. This game is going to fail harder than Swtor did.