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102 posts found
  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1478

7/05/13 3:06:42 PM#41
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

Originally posted by DavisFlight
I'm shocked at the number of people that aren't angry about instances. It undermines not only MMOs, but the whole Elderscrolls feel.

Would it be better that everyone waits on a line because too many people are in the same dungeon? lol.

That has literally never happened in any MMO I've ever played with public dungeons. Try playing something that isn't WoW before you say something so uninformed.

It happened. In older games like EQ1 and DAoC.


Overall the advantages - when done for the right reasons - outweigh the negatives.

 

Taking the MMO out of MMO is never justified. Good design makes the issues go away.

EQ1 was poorly designed.

DAoC was not. You never, EVER had to wait in line for a fucking dungeon. The closest to that happening was "hey, let's go to the disciple room. Hm, people already there, LET'S MOVE TO ONE OF THE DOZENS OF OTHER ROOMS IN THIS PLACE". There was no "line". Not once. Because the devs were moronic enough to put one low respawn mob with a super power weapon in the dungeon.

Instances do not take the MMO out of the MMO.

In almost every MMO I've ever played, yes they do.

Not only is it immersion breaking, and anti social, but if the instances are the main part of the game (they often are) then the population vanishes into these nega realms, and you can never interact with them, and the rest of the game becomes a wasteland.

Instanced has been used well in an MMO maybe a grand total of once. More often than not, its a crutch/shortcut for developers to make up for bad game design.

The only game where I have felt Instancing has worked well, and not killed immersion, was in Fallen Earth.

Instancing transition was seamless. No loading screen. You almost couldnt tell that you had left the actual game world and were in a private instance.

In every other game I have played that used instancing the world felt disconnected from the little mission boxes you were sent into.

Badly done instancing kills immersion. There are real problems that have to be addressed in open worlds however. EQ1 was not badly designed, it was a game that developed over some years. Instancing was a solution to some of the problems it encountered. Poorly and needlessly applied to address e.g server load issues usually sucks. SWTOR being a recent example.

 

There are other possible solutions - I think waiting for boss mobs to respawn kills immersion for example - but would I be in favour of world resets? They are used. 1000 bosses say, they get to be killed once and once only and when they are all dead you hit the reset? Great for immersion but when you arrive 5 minutes after a boss has died ... for the tenth time in a row. Travel times tend to get extended as well ... which can also be bad ....

Instances are clearly going to be a part of ESO. What needs to be done is to push for them to be used for what they can add. 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/05/13 8:51:55 PM#42
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/05/13 8:58:14 PM#43
Originally posted by Kuanshu

Advantages and Disadvantages of contested PvE dungeons:

1) Community enhancing

2) More immersive contesting PvE alongside and with others from your alliance

3) Possible trainwrecks

4) Kill stealers & Ninja Looters & chest stwealers If this doesn't exist in the noninstanced overworled, it wouldn't exist in the dungeon. Why not just instance everything if this is a real problem? (which it isn't)

5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons.

6) Waiting for campers to move to another camp that have been camping the same MOBs for too long. This is a minor issue at best. If a dungeon is well balanced, then moving to another spawn would NOT be a problem. Or, if there is a camp exp bonus, it encourages people to move around.

7) Your late for work/school/dates/events or you miss out entirely. This has nothing to do with instances.

8) Takes alot more bandwidth/data useage then instances It absolutely does not. Games in 1997 weren't instanced, and that was on dial up.

9) You don't have to PUG it.

10) MOB types, loot tables, and other dynamics aren't as varied as instances. That's 100% wrong. How do you figure this? If any argument can be made, its that things are MORE varied because the dungeons are bigger.

 

Advantages and Disadvantages of instanced PvE dungeons:

1) You can have a preset dungeon group or you can queue for a short period for the instance and bam your in Or, if its not instanced, you can just walk through the door and bam, you're in.

2) You get to meet and group with alot more interesting, wonderful, unique people from all over the world. Not with instancing. That hides people from you. In public dungeons you have a ton of people inside you get to interact with.

3) You don't have to wait for MOB resets or timers. You don't in public dungeons either.

4) Frees up alot of bandwidth/date useage for other contested content like large scale PvP. Wrong.

5) Allows designers and developers to have varied MOB types, loot, etc...for each group (even if in the same instanced dungeon) Wrong.

6) You can kick the asshat (s) that is/are in your group and the queue finds a replacement without waiting. You can do this in public dungeons as well.

7) You don't have to miss out or be late for anything so you can a much more productive, enjoyable real life ...what

8) Immersion enhancing as you can have someone stealth/scout ahead and its just you and your group using strategy and tactics without any interference or disruption from any other groups That is the opposite of immersive. In a world full of adventurers, why would going underground magically make them all vanish?

9) Your not dealing with kill stealers, ninja looters, chest stealers, etc... Explained above.

10) Lets face it PUGs rawk! Right, and its easier to have them in public dungeons.

 

Everquest was a complete clusterfuck Yes, and all those issues were solved in subsequent MMOs WITHOUT instancing.

 

Any other MMORPGs you care to mention that had contested PvE content instead of instances you can bring to the table? Vanguard, Darkfall, the majority of non WoW clone MMORPGs

Fixed some things.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4107

7/05/13 10:25:55 PM#44

So the fixation of the week is instances are bad? Stay tuned for next week's topic from the department of hyperbole for the overly excitable: "If I can't sit on all the chairs I ain't playing, and anyone who plays is a foo!"

Instances have a place in MMOs and solve many more problems than they create. And anyone who thinks that DAoC didn't have waits and spawn camping is deluding himself.

In Albion there was a prime leveling area for that tough 45-50 grind in vanilla DAoC. Darkness Falls didn't exist yet. The best place to group grind--and it was a grind, don't let anyone tell you otherwise--was a spot in Lyonesse where these Ent-like trees spawned. The place was camped 24/7 and the way you got in was you let someone in the group who was performing the role you wanted to do (I was the CC guy--they always came 2 or more at a time and 2 would usually wipe a group) to take your name and whisper you 15 minutes before he was going to leave and you would go over to replace him. We kept names on pieces of paper and the queue was usually 5+ deep for each role.

Could we have gone elsewhere? Yup. but the XP/hour with those trees was as good as it got. A close second were some high-level goblins also nearby that were equally heavily camped.

There's no avoiding waits, queues, spawn camping,  queue jumping, fights over tagging the mobs, etc. in popular non-instanced spots. And I'm talking about the days when MMO gamers were a better behaved subspecies of humanity. These days when many grief deliberately just because it's their god-given right to grief? Yeah right. Whether you want to face reality or not, online games in 2013 have to be designed with a lot of emphasis on containing the hordes of assholes who are guaranteed to be there. The phased (which is also instancing, btw...) resources in GW2 and the "everyone gets credit for the kill" mob tagging system are both good examples of drama inhibitors that work well and are pretty well a requirement with the "me first and me only" crowd that plays MMOs these days. 

Yes, the atmosphere of the game from a hyper-realism point of view is better in non-instanced environments and some games just go way over the top with instancing (Neverwinter anyone?) but there's nothing either game breaking nor moronic about it. They serve the purpose of allowing you to spend more of your game time doing the things you want to do instead of waiting your turn or settling for doing the 4th best in the list of what you wanted to do today, while at the same time helping to tone down the unnecessary drama and nerd rage.

 

 

 

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/05/13 10:48:59 PM#45
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu

Advantages and Disadvantages of contested PvE dungeons:

1) Community enhancing

2) More immersive contesting PvE alongside and with others from your alliance

3) Possible trainwrecks

4) Kill stealers & Ninja Looters & chest stwealers If this doesn't exist in the noninstanced overworled, it wouldn't exist in the dungeon. Why not just instance everything if this is a real problem? (which it isn't) Kill stealing & Ninja Looters exist much moreso in dungeons simply based on the design of the dungeon and how its close quarters for everyone involved. Chest stealing will exist more in ESO as lockpicking and chests are central to the Elder Scrolls legacy.

5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. MOBs need to repop after they are killed and you cannot simply have insta spawns as that isn't even remotely sensible or feasible. Yes there are timers for certain group encounters and raids, otherwise it would be camped 24/7 and good luck gettin a turn.

6) Waiting for campers to move to another camp that have been camping the same MOBs for too long. This is a minor issue at best. If a dungeon is well balanced, then moving to another spawn would NOT be a problem. Or, if there is a camp exp bonus, it encourages people to move around. Not if certain MOBs have better drops or if the group is waiting for members to level up, skill up and they simply don't want to move...watcha gonna do then? GL with the camp exp bonus../

7) Your late for work/school/dates/events or you miss out entirely. This has nothing to do with instances. Notice this is under contested content as you have to wait here and wait there as everything is contested and welcome to your new timesink since you prefer contested content over instances.

8) Takes alot more bandwidth/data useage then instances It absolutely does not. Games in 1997 weren't instanced, and that was on dial up. Ya and the graphics sucked, so did gameplay, so did the engine, hell most of the game was one huge timesink and we put up with it cuz we didn't know any better...these days we do and when your dealing with a ton more MMORPG players then back in the day, your dealing with people wanting high end graphics, high end gameplay mechanics, PvP, massive worlds, dynamic AI, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay are on the cutting edge and yes it does take more data usage as its so much easier to place instancing on seperate servers for optimization and giving instancing much more depth and extra features you couldn't do in a totally seamless world, especially with how this is an Elder Scrolls game.

9) You don't have to PUG it.

10) MOB types, loot tables, and other dynamics aren't as varied as instances. That's 100% wrong. How do you figure this? If any argument can be made, its that things are MORE varied because the dungeons are bigger. Dungeons are not bigger; in fact if anything they would have to be smaller as there are limitations and yes it has to do with technological barriers and yes they do exist; especially when ya'll want a totally seamless world with high end graphics, high end gameplay mechanics, PvP, massive worlds, dynamic AI, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay on the cutting edge....hrmm seems like I said this before.

 

Advantages and Disadvantages of instanced PvE dungeons:

1) You can have a preset dungeon group or you can queue for a short period for the instance and bam your in Or, if its not instanced, you can just walk through the door and bam, you're in. Your in the entrance then you look around and see everything is camped and oh wait your buddy has to leave cuz he don't want to wait to do the dungeon crawl cuz everything is contested...then you gotta find another tank or healer...gl wit dat.

2) You get to meet and group with alot more interesting, wonderful, unique people from all over the world. Not with instancing. That hides people from you. In public dungeons you have a ton of people inside you get to interact with. Uh talking about how the queue system picks and places people according to roles? Ever hear of the megaserver? Well imagine how its going to be implimented and you get the idea.

3) You don't have to wait for MOB resets or timers. You don't in public dungeons either. Remember MOBs don't insta respawn and read what I said about certain group encounter and raid timers. I am sure there will even be timers on certain group encounter and raid instances.

4) Frees up alot of bandwidth/date useage for other contested content like large scale PvP. Wrong.  Yes you can place instancing on seperate servers.

5) Allows designers and developers to have varied MOB types, loot, etc...for each group (even if in the same instanced dungeon) Wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. Once you move all instancing to seperate servers you can do so much more as its placed elsewhere and it can be tweaked so everyone can experience much more greatily varied loot tables and even different MOB types which wouldn't occur so readily in an open contested dungeon.

6) You can kick the asshat (s) that is/are in your group and the queue finds a replacement without waiting. You can do this in public dungeons as well. GL wit dat ad you got to fill their spot and groups are only comprised of 4 people as I am sure everyone will have their own groups ready and once a group sees you lost someone they will pick up your camp. If you were in an instanced dungeon the queue system would provide a person to fill the role your missing without waiting.

7) You don't have to miss out or be late for anything so you can a much more productive, enjoyable real life ...what Not having to wait because public dungeons is all about contested content and then you get to go somewhere else which adds more time and so on.

8) Immersion enhancing as you can have someone stealth/scout ahead and its just you and your group using strategy and tactics without any interference or disruption from any other groups That is the opposite of immersive. In a world full of adventurers, why would going underground magically make them all vanish? Because its just you and your group without everyone else ruining the actual dungeon crawl and ruin the immersiveness of surprise and handling mutliple adds and so on...comprende?

9) Your not dealing with kill stealers, ninja looters, chest stealers, etc... Explained above. I corrected you.

10) Lets face it PUGs rawk! Right, and its easier to have them in public dungeons. This was me being funny...that was you being anal.

 

Everquest was a complete clusterfuck Yes, and all those issues were solved in subsequent MMOs WITHOUT instancing.

 

Any other MMORPGs you care to mention that had contested PvE content instead of instances you can bring to the table? Vanguard, Darkfall, the majority of non WoW clone MMORPGs Ya I played Vanguard and oh boy that ran well LOL...NOT...maybe these days but why wait around and how many people play? Darkfall was a huge PvP fest and I am sure anyone who played it knew firsthand with CONTESTED content was and rightly so...These weren't very good examples...try again.

Fixed some things. Ya so did I...take some time and really consider what I am implying instead of being the quick judge as is all too typical in this day and age. Personally I couldn't care less about PvE content as even the best most dynamic interactive AI isn't even remotely challenging or immersive to me whatsoever. Maybe Elder Scrolls single player games are somewhat entertaining yet it is trivial at best for me even at Master level of difficulty. I would rather enjoy much of the dungeons without interference, disruption, nuiscance, agitation, instigation, frustration because I have to compete with my own alliance members over contested content as the name even implies competition and that is its nature. Also, this is an Elder Scrolls game and its an MMO...you can't have it all and hope this game runs without a hitch...you better hope it honors the legacy of Elder Scrolls or brings even more to the table as this is a huge undertaking to try and satisfy Elder Scrolls Fans and MMO players in one fell swoop. Imagine this for a second and take some time to contemplate this and let it sink in before you make quick judgements justifying what you want without any consideration on development time, technological barriers, bandwidth/data usage optimization, high population count on MMOs, rich detailed graphics, next generation consoles limitations compared to high end PCs, Huge PvP zone, 3 alliances, tons of lore from over 15 years of Elder Scrolls, etc....I could go on and on and on here...everyone wants everything right now...I am betting your from this generation...ayup

 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/05/13 11:53:30 PM#46
Originally posted by Iselin

So the fixation of the week is instances are bad? Stay tuned for next week's topic from the department of hyperbole for the overly excitable: "If I can't sit on all the chairs I ain't playing, and anyone who plays is a foo!"

Instances have a place in MMOs and solve many more problems than they create. And anyone who thinks that DAoC didn't have waits and spawn campingis deluding himself.]

Stopped reading there.

There are no problems that instances "solve" that can't be better solved by good game design.

And no, I never waited for spawns in DAoC. Except once the dragon had been killed semi recently, so we just did a different raid instead.

 

Instances are a half measure by lazy developers. They're good for lobby based Diablo type games, but that is NOT what an MMO is.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/06/13 12:38:58 AM#47
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu

Advantages and Disadvantages of contested PvE dungeons:

1) Community enhancing

2) More immersive contesting PvE alongside and with others from your alliance

3) Possible trainwrecks

4) Kill stealers & Ninja Looters & chest stwealers If this doesn't exist in the noninstanced overworled, it wouldn't exist in the dungeon. Why not just instance everything if this is a real problem? (which it isn't) Kill stealing & Ninja Looters exist much moreso in dungeons simply based on the design of the dungeon and how its close quarters for everyone involved. Chest stealing will exist more in ESO as lockpicking and chests are central to the Elder Scrolls legacy. None of the MMOs I've played have suffered from more killstealing in dungeons than outside dungeons. If someone is harassing you, quickly reporting them to a GM means they get banned. Simple. This happens wiht or without instances.

5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. MOBs need to repop after they are killed and you cannot simply have insta spawns as that isn't even remotely sensible or feasible. Yes there are timers for certain group encounters and raids, otherwise it would be camped 24/7 and good luck gettin a turn. If a developer is moronic enough to design a game where some mobs are so much more important than others that they get camped, then they're probably too inept to design a good MMO anyway, instanced or not. No mobs in DAoC dropped stuff that was so radically superior that it resulted in that mob getting camped.

6) Waiting for campers to move to another camp that have been camping the same MOBs for too long. This is a minor issue at best. If a dungeon is well balanced, then moving to another spawn would NOT be a problem. Or, if there is a camp exp bonus, it encourages people to move around. Not if certain MOBs have better drops or if the group is waiting for members to level up, skill up and they simply don't want to move...watcha gonna do then? GL with the camp exp bonus../ Either design the game so that certain mobs don't have vastly better loot (a very easy things to do, most good MMOs do this) or just deal with the VERY MINOR ISSUE OF MOVING TO A DIFFERENT SPAWN. And yes, camp bonuses did greatly encourage people to move around. Your example of waiting for other members to level up makes no sense at all.

7) Your late for work/school/dates/events or you miss out entirely. This has nothing to do with instances. Notice this is under contested content as you have to wait here and wait there as everything is contested and welcome to your new timesink since you prefer contested content over instances. I never had to wait in line for anything ever in a noninstanced MMO. Your example is void. People sharing a zone != having to wait for everything. It simply means you're in the same zone.

8) Takes alot more bandwidth/data useage then instances It absolutely does not. Games in 1997 weren't instanced, and that was on dial up. Ya and the graphics sucked, so did gameplay wrong, so did the engine again, wrong DAoC can handle 500 people fighting on screen, most modern MMOs cannot, hell most of the game was one huge timesink and we put up with it cuz we didn't know any better...not relavent at all these days we do and when your dealing with a ton more MMORPG players then back in the day not on the same server you're not. And most MMOs have less subs than pre WoW MMOs did at their peaks your dealing with people wanting high end graphics people wanted high end graphics back then too , high end gameplay mechanics the same mechanics that existed back then, are what people play now, PvP same back then, massive worlds worlds have gotten way smaller, dynamic AI AI has gotten worse, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay are on the cutting edge and yes it does take more data usage as its so much easier to place instancing on seperate servers for optimization and giving instancing much more depth and extra features you couldn't do in a totally seamless world, especially with how this is an Elder Scrolls game. This entire point I had to stop tearing apart because it is your weakest point overall. Games back then did much more with MUCH less horsepower. Nowadays engines are better and game worlds are smaller and with less features. Instancing has absolutely ZERO effect on this. Example, Darkfall, has a massive world, real time FPS combat, no loading, AND NO INSTANCES, and it runs fine. It was also made by 15 people on a 1 million dollar budget in Greece. So, consider your argument dead.

9) You don't have to PUG it.

10) MOB types, loot tables, and other dynamics aren't as varied as instances. That's 100% wrong. How do you figure this? If any argument can be made, its that things are MORE varied because the dungeons are bigger. Dungeons are not bigger; in fact if anything they would have to be smaller as there are limitations and yes it has to do with technological barriers and yes they do exist; especially when ya'll want a totally seamless world with high end graphics, high end gameplay mechanics, PvP, massive worlds, dynamic AI, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay on the cutting edge....hrmm seems like I said this before. If MMORPGs could have massive dungeons on on board graphics cards and a dial up modem, modern games could easily do the same. Vanguard, Darkfall, and several other MMOs prove this to be a fact. Uninstanced dungeons, by their most basic design, are much larger than instanced dungeons. Because noninstanced dungeons are much bigger, they have more loot types, mob types, and other dynamics.

 

Advantages and Disadvantages of instanced PvE dungeons:

1) You can have a preset dungeon group or you can queue for a short period for the instance and bam your in Or, if its not instanced, you can just walk through the door and bam, you're in. Your in the entrance then you look around and see everything is camped And then you go "hey, can I join you guys?" "sure!"

2) You get to meet and group with alot more interesting, wonderful, unique people from all over the world. Not with instancing. That hides people from you. In public dungeons you have a ton of people inside you get to interact with.

3) You don't have to wait for MOB resets or timers. You don't in public dungeons either.

4) Frees up alot of bandwidth/date useage for other contested content like large scale PvP. Wrong. 

5) Allows designers and developers to have varied MOB types, loot, etc...for each group (even if in the same instanced dungeon) Wrong.

6) You can kick the asshat (s) that is/are in your group and the queue finds a replacement without waiting. You can do this in public dungeons as well. GL wit dat ad you got to fill their spot  And all you do is ask one of the many people in the dungeon "wanna join?" because that's what you do in social games, which is what MMOs are supposed to be.

7) You don't have to miss out or be late for anything so you can a much more productive, enjoyable real life ...what

8) Immersion enhancing as you can have someone stealth/scout ahead and its just you and your group using strategy and tactics without any interference or disruption from any other groups That is the opposite of immersive. In a world full of adventurers, why would going underground magically make them all vanish?

9) Your not dealing with kill stealers, ninja looters, chest stealers, etc... Explained above.

10) Lets face it PUGs rawk! Right, and its easier to have them in public dungeons. This was me being funny...that was you being anal.

 

Everquest was a complete clusterfuck Yes, and all those issues were solved in subsequent MMOs WITHOUT instancing.

 

Any other MMORPGs you care to mention that had contested PvE content instead of instances you can bring to the table? Vanguard, Darkfall, the majority of non WoW clone MMORPGs

Fixed some things. 

 

I think you should just leave this thread.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1401

7/06/13 3:57:42 AM#48
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

Sorry for de-railing :)

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/06/13 10:43:01 AM#49
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

Sorry for de-railing :)


Sorry bud, MMO doesn't stand for massive multiplayer.

 

It stands for massiveLY multiplayer. Meaning, you have to have upwards of hundreds of people you can actually play with at the same time. That's been the staple of the genre since the term was coined. Instanced small scale diablo like games have existed for a long time and no one calls them MMOs. Because they aren't. What makes an MMO is the persistent uninstanced world and the thousands of people in it.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1401

7/06/13 10:53:00 AM#50
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

Sorry for de-railing :)


Sorry bud, MMO doesn't stand for massive multiplayer.

 

It stands for massiveLY multiplayer. Meaning, you have to have upwards of hundreds of people you can actually play with at the same time. That's been the staple of the genre since the term was coined. Instanced small scale diablo like games have existed for a long time and no one calls them MMOs. Because they aren't. What makes an MMO is the persistent uninstanced world and the thousands of people in it.

I see your point, regarding the massively. However, nothing states an MMO has to be persistent and/or a world.

Instanced arena based comabt that lasts 2 hours with upwards of hundreds of players competing with or against is an MMO.

You said it yourself in red.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/06/13 11:57:23 AM#51
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

Sorry for de-railing :)


Sorry bud, MMO doesn't stand for massive multiplayer.

 

It stands for massiveLY multiplayer. Meaning, you have to have upwards of hundreds of people you can actually play with at the same time. That's been the staple of the genre since the term was coined. Instanced small scale diablo like games have existed for a long time and no one calls them MMOs. Because they aren't. What makes an MMO is the persistent uninstanced world and the thousands of people in it.

I see your point, regarding the massively. However, nothing states an MMO has to be persistent and/or a world.

Instanced arena based comabt that lasts 2 hours with upwards of hundreds of players competing with or against is an MMO.

You said it yourself in red.

Except that there aren't any instanced arena combat games that have 100vs100 matches.

The key features that differentiated MMOs from other online games were the persistent virtual world, and the thousands of people that existed inside it. When the term MMO was coined, THOSE are the features that created the genre.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/06/13 12:13:47 PM#52
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu

Advantages and Disadvantages of contested PvE dungeons:

1) Community enhancing

2) More immersive contesting PvE alongside and with others from your alliance

3) Possible trainwrecks

4) Kill stealers & Ninja Looters & chest stwealers If this doesn't exist in the noninstanced overworled, it wouldn't exist in the dungeon. Why not just instance everything if this is a real problem? (which it isn't) Kill stealing & Ninja Looters exist much moreso in dungeons simply based on the design of the dungeon and how its close quarters for everyone involved. Chest stealing will exist more in ESO as lockpicking and chests are central to the Elder Scrolls legacy. None of the MMOs I've played have suffered from more killstealing in dungeons than outside dungeons. If someone is harassing you, quickly reporting them to a GM means they get banned. Simple. This happens wiht or without instances. You've Played (There it is folks). I've been playing and beta testing MMORPGs for over 15 years. Reporting them and having them do something, especially if the griefer is smart and there are more griefers these days then there were in the past....try again.

5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. MOBs need to repop after they are killed and you cannot simply have insta spawns as that isn't even remotely sensible or feasible. Yes there are timers for certain group encounters and raids, otherwise it would be camped 24/7 and good luck gettin a turn. If a developer is moronic enough to design a game where some mobs are so much more important than others that they get camped, then they're probably too inept to design a good MMO anyway, instanced or not. No mobs in DAoC dropped stuff that was so radically superior that it resulted in that mob getting camped. DAoC was crazy as all get out on the server I played Albion side and like I said if I wasn't ahead of everyone in my realm level wise I would have dealt with more then I wanted to and I already wanted to PK plenty of players in my own realm. Oh and the tree camp area that one poster mentioned; I started that on my server and it was crazy SOLOing them as I did (which is why I got to 50 first)....then it got crazy once everyone else showed up.

6) Waiting for campers to move to another camp that have been camping the same MOBs for too long. This is a minor issue at best. If a dungeon is well balanced, then moving to another spawn would NOT be a problem. Or, if there is a camp exp bonus, it encourages people to move around. Not if certain MOBs have better drops or if the group is waiting for members to level up, skill up and they simply don't want to move...watcha gonna do then? GL with the camp exp bonus../ Either design the game so that certain mobs don't have vastly better loot (a very easy things to do, most good MMOs do this) or just deal with the VERY MINOR ISSUE OF MOVING TO A DIFFERENT SPAWN. And yes, camp bonuses did greatly encourage people to move around. Your example of waiting for other members to level up makes no sense at all. Here is another obvious example revealing your lack of overall MMORPG experience and oh yes lets just put in camp bonuses...what else should the developers do to make the game better for you?

7) Your late for work/school/dates/events or you miss out entirely. This has nothing to do with instances. Notice this is under contested content as you have to wait here and wait there as everything is contested and welcome to your new timesink since you prefer contested content over instances. I never had to wait in line for anything ever in a noninstanced MMO. Your example is void. People sharing a zone != having to wait for everything. It simply means you're in the same zone. BS as it pertains to questing, certain drops, and good luck if this happens to be in dungeons on a heavily populated server which this game will be if it is as good as many hope it will be....megaserver!

8) Takes alot more bandwidth/data useage then instances It absolutely does not. Games in 1997 weren't instanced, and that was on dial up. Ya and the graphics sucked, so did gameplay wrong, so did the engine again, wrong DAoC can handle 500 people fighting on screen, most modern MMOs cannot, hell most of the game was one huge timesink and we put up with it cuz we didn't know any better...not relavent at all these days we do and when your dealing with a ton more MMORPG players then back in the day not on the same server you're not. And most MMOs have less subs than pre WoW MMOs did at their peaks your dealing with people wanting high end graphics people wanted high end graphics back then too , high end gameplay mechanics the same mechanics that existed back then, are what people play now, PvP same back then, massive worlds worlds have gotten way smaller, dynamic AI AI has gotten worse, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay are on the cutting edge and yes it does take more data usage as its so much easier to place instancing on seperate servers for optimization and giving instancing much more depth and extra features you couldn't do in a totally seamless world, especially with how this is an Elder Scrolls game. This entire point I had to stop tearing apart because it is your weakest point overall. Games back then did much more with MUCH less horsepower. Nowadays engines are better and game worlds are smaller and with less features. Instancing has absolutely ZERO effect on this. Example, Darkfall, has a massive world, real time FPS combat, no loading, AND NO INSTANCES, and it runs fine. It was also made by 15 people on a 1 million dollar budget in Greece. So, consider your argument dead. Wow your so full of yourself...its more then obvious...DAoC couldn't run with 500 on the same screen without issues unless they have done something since I played which was at launch and shortly thereafter. You wasted all that and didn't even hardly refute anything I stated in length here. You don't speak for others you can only speak for yourself as I am only speaking from my experiences which are much more considerable in comparison to your (Oh I played a few MMORPGs so I am an expert) examples. Darkfall is a very poor example of a good successful MMORPG! This game is going to make it look like a complete and utter joke in comparison as it should offer everything Elder Scrolls Fans and MMORPG Fans have been wanting for many years.

9) You don't have to PUG it.

10) MOB types, loot tables, and other dynamics aren't as varied as instances. That's 100% wrong. How do you figure this? If any argument can be made, its that things are MORE varied because the dungeons are bigger. Dungeons are not bigger; in fact if anything they would have to be smaller as there are limitations and yes it has to do with technological barriers and yes they do exist; especially when ya'll want a totally seamless world with high end graphics, high end gameplay mechanics, PvP, massive worlds, dynamic AI, houses, towns, all facets of gameplay on the cutting edge....hrmm seems like I said this before. If MMORPGs could have massive dungeons on on board graphics cards and a dial up modem, modern games could easily do the same. Vanguard, Darkfall, and several other MMOs prove this to be a fact. Uninstanced dungeons, by their most basic design, are much larger than instanced dungeons. Because noninstanced dungeons are much bigger, they have more loot types, mob types, and other dynamics. Uninstanced Dungeons are not much larger then instanced dungeons as that is utterly absurd and yet you even go so far as to say its a fact, LOL. Vanguard and Darkfall are very poor examples as they weren't successful in any real sense. You have no idea whatsoever as to the technolgical barriers it takes to make a successful MMORPG that offers what players nowadays want collectively and hope it runs smoothly without alot of issues.

 

Advantages and Disadvantages of instanced PvE dungeons:

1) You can have a preset dungeon group or you can queue for a short period for the instance and bam your in Or, if its not instanced, you can just walk through the door and bam, you're in. Your in the entrance then you look around and see everything is camped And then you go "hey, can I join you guys?" "sure!" 4 man groups trumps you...again...

2) You get to meet and group with alot more interesting, wonderful, unique people from all over the world. Not with instancing. That hides people from you. In public dungeons you have a ton of people inside you get to interact with. Instancing surprises you as the queue picker can draw from all the servers on a particular platform which offers more variation overall considering all the servers on a particular platform are collectively comprised of many more variations of said gamers.

3) You don't have to wait for MOB resets or timers. You don't in public dungeons either. MOBs don't insta respawn in public dungeons. MOBs should remain dead much longer in an instanced dungeon or shouldn't respawn entirely once the area is cleared.

4) Frees up alot of bandwidth/date useage for other contested content like large scale PvP. Wrong.  Corrected you above.

5) Allows designers and developers to have varied MOB types, loot, etc...for each group (even if in the same instanced dungeon) Wrong. Corrected you again above.

6) You can kick the asshat (s) that is/are in your group and the queue finds a replacement without waiting. You can do this in public dungeons as well. GL wit dat ad you got to fill their spot  And all you do is ask one of the many people in the dungeon "wanna join?" because that's what you do in social games, which is what MMOs are supposed to be. Your snide remarks don't give you any more credit btw...the queue system finds a replacement and places them in your group. You have to hope someone is standing around otherwise you are waiting and if they cannot heal or tank effectively enough...well then guess what...your waiting even longer.

7) You don't have to miss out or be late for anything so you can a much more productive, enjoyable real life ...what Its called timesinks...public dungeons cater to timesinks.

8) Immersion enhancing as you can have someone stealth/scout ahead and its just you and your group using strategy and tactics without any interference or disruption from any other groups That is the opposite of immersive. In a world full of adventurers, why would going underground magically make them all vanish? Its called Stealth, oh and its a Nightblade thing...oh wait you probably have no idea what I am talking about...heck why don't you help them design  your game at this rate...moron.

9) Your not dealing with kill stealers, ninja looters, chest stealers, etc... Explained above. Corrected above.

10) Lets face it PUGs rawk! Right, and its easier to have them in public dungeons. This was me being funny...that was you being anal.

 

Everquest was a complete clusterfuck Yes, and all those issues were solved in subsequent MMOs WITHOUT instancing. Nice erasing the rest of this post...editing caters the editor.

 

Any other MMORPGs you care to mention that had contested PvE content instead of instances you can bring to the table? Vanguard, Darkfall, the majority of non WoW clone MMORPGs Very poor examples as I stated above and you speak so clearly of your lack of experience playing successful well implimented MMORPGs.

 

I think you should just leave this thread. I think you should make me leave the thread...oh better yet lets hope I cross your path in Cryodiil on the opposing alliance so I can show you how much of a tool you really are...punk.

 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/06/13 1:40:48 PM#53

You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/06/13 2:21:43 PM#54
Originally posted by DavisFlight

You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.

You actually think a simple statement is going to disprove anyhing as there is no proof until the fat lady sings and the game releases.

Ask any development team as to why they instance alot of content and you will learn more about the technological side of things.

I am a computer tech and I have built my own rigs for at least 15 years and I also do networking and troubleshooting of anything concerning PCs.

I played single player RPGs until my first MMO experience in 1997 and my first 3D MMORPG (Everquest) convinced me that no single player RPG (with the exception of the Elder Scrolls) was as exciting, interesting nor as involved as any MMO. I have also beta tested many MMORPGs since 1999 and have played alongside and against some of the most notorious old school powergaming pve and pvp guilds in every aspect of MMORPGs. 

Personally followed the development of many MMORPGs and I know without a doubt the final say on many facets of gameplay and game mechanics is determined by the technological side of the development team.

Darkfall doesn't destroy anything as it took forever for the game to be released and was often rumored as vaporware for years until it came out and had many ruined aspect of gameplay and only certain niche PvP players cater to it simply based on poorly executed aspects of PvP that caters to this niche.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

7/06/13 3:28:30 PM#55
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by DavisFlight

You have thoroughly proven you have no idea what you're talking about. You need to drop the "instancing because technical limitations!" bs. Darkfall destroys that argument.


Darkfall doesn't destroy anything as it took forever for the game to be released and was often rumored as vaporware for years until it came out and had many ruined aspect of gameplay and only certain niche PvP players cater to it simply based on poorly executed aspects of PvP that caters to this niche.

You aren't special. I too have been working with computers and playing MMOs for 15+ years. Yet you seem not to be able to grasp that if MMOs in 1999 could pull off worlds without instancing, there's no reason modern MMOs can't do the same. Tech has only gotten better.

As for Darkfall, it taking a long time to come out is not, in any way at all, related to the fact that the features of the game destroy your argument. Your sentence barely makes sense as you phrased it, I start to wonder if english is a third language to you.

Fact is, Darkfall has a bigger world than most MMOs, no loading screens, no instancing, and yet has real time combat, which most MMOs don't have. And it was done on a budget smaller than any AAA MMO to date.

  Kuanshu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/06/13 6:08:01 PM#56

GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL. The fact you keep bringing up Darkfall clearly reveals alot, especially considering the asinine community that goes with the game. Darkfall is a poor excuse for a MMORPG and even Darkfall: Unholy Wars had a horrible release...so hows that game doing these days, LOL.

2 MMORPGs released in 1999

Everquest: LOADING PLEASE WAIT...nough said

Asheron's Call actually introduced instancing as I beta tested it and played launch day forward...try again...oh and seamless wasn't as seamless as a player shouldn't even notice a seam in gameplay yet it was more then noticeable...reminiscence of Vanguard, heh.

Both were dial up MMORPGs and I was there in both games when an entire area/zone/server crashed which was all too common, especially when a certain amount of players where in close proximity.  Broadband was being introduced early on at this time and that didn't help much for that matter.

Sigh...back to the subject matter

INSIDE ESO DUNGEONS

Sounds like they are incorporating both instanced dungeons and public dungeons so we will just have to wait and see what unfolds at this time as we are hearing alot of different things and we are so far from release...alot could change.

  nerovipus32

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2734

7/06/13 6:15:58 PM#57
The focus for this game seems to be changing from month to month. This cannot end well in the long run. A game that tries to appease everyone ends up being a very shallow experience. The original plan for this game has gone right out the window,
  jimprouner

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 152

7/06/13 10:45:13 PM#58
Originally posted by nerovipus32
The focus for this game seems to be changing from month to month. This cannot end well in the long run. A game that tries to appease everyone ends up being a very shallow experience. The original plan for this game has gone right out the window,

Fact.  Game doesn't know what it is, or where it is going.  Very very bad signs this late in development.   I highly predict GW2 flop.

  IridescentOrk

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/13
Posts: 160

7/06/13 10:56:15 PM#59
ugh, 4 classes only?

gameplay > graphics

  Battlerock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/12/11
Posts: 1043

7/06/13 11:00:49 PM#60
Originally posted by Carnicide
I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

 

Yeah without trinity at least a trinity, the whole "role playing" goes out the window and all your left with is gw2 pve. Gw2 pve is, well I dont know what it is, but it makes me want to shoot myself.
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