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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Official post - when questing in other faction's zones won't even be able to see other faction's players.

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277 posts found
  Maelwydd

Elite Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1094

4/30/13 8:26:27 AM#81
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

IMO this is way off base for one reasons. Most MMOs need some type of PvP and you only have a few options.

Assumption. Firstly that most MMO's need some type of PvP and secondly that you only have a few options.

 

Open world PvP everywhere like Linage 2, battle grounds like WoW or DAoC 3 faction PvP. There are lots of the first two and a lot of gamers are sick to death of the respin of the WoW model. So whats left to pick?

Crazy idea but choose whatever fits the IP being used without tearing great chunks out of the very reasons why the IP is popular. I could care less about the PvP as long as they stick to the main points of what makes a TES game a TES game.

A model that has done very well and rarely used, DAoC model.

How can you put that sentence together and not be taking the piss? If it had done well it wouldn't be rarely used.

This being something to ESO that is really needed to be a real TES game. Freedom to explore and not get attack by players as you do so.

You cannot freely explore. There are restrictions to exploration such as being unable to explore outside your faction lands until you are level 50. Also the lore that was given by the devs has already made it clear that players cannot be attacked outside Cyrodil so being able to freely explore wouldn't open you up to PvP.

TES was about PvE and having a player attack you when being the hero of the story would feel very unlike TES.

So does haveing other people wander around the world, emoting at you, joining you in dungeons, selling you their crafted goods, drinking beer in the local tavern...you get the idea. Despite the fact the developers already said why you wouldn't be attacked outside Cyrodi, as already mentioned previously, I see little reason to single out that feature but ignore all the other features that make a game 'very unlike TES'. you are picking arguments for the sake of it.

The DAoC model is the only PvP model that gives the PURE PvE players their space but still gives PvP fans an outlet and makes ESO an option for PvPers as well.

As opposed to the following: -

Multi servers for PvP, PvE split

OWPvP with flags

Their megaserver idea splitting PvE'ers and OW PvP'ers

 

Sorry, there are many ways of doing it, you are just closed minded about anyone thinking DOAC isn't great!

 

Of the options, they picked the best one for fitting TES and the best option for MMO fans as its not been done to death. Pls not another WoW clone.

It hasn't been done to death simply because, much to your astonishment and denial is WASN'T that popular. Don't believe me...

Is WOW popular? Do people copy it?

Is DAOC popular? Do people copy it?

(mod edited)
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2754

4/30/13 8:30:53 AM#82

Ah, there is some vague hope yet for this game 

 

So, you can visit "other faction lands" via a phase switch that simply erases all enemy players from YOUR vision of the world ?

 

The next logical step is to apply the same "phase switch" to remove all enemy players from YOUR vision of Cyrodil !

 

It's good to know that this is quite possible, because it will inevitably be needed. I've no doubt at all that there's a sizeable chunk of the current TES playerbase who have no interest whatsoever in questing (and getting ganked) in Cyrodil. And they will lay siege to the official forums once they get near max level and find they are forced to PVP if they want to "finish" the game.

  Maelwydd

Elite Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1094

4/30/13 8:31:59 AM#83
Originally posted by ReeseFlamelocks
It does kind of make sense that the two groups would not see each other. If it's a PvE area and you are not allowed to PvP, then the two groups would just stare at each other and wonder stupidly why they aren't allowed to attack each other. They would need to justify the peace somehow using divine intervention or via a treaty arrangement in the context of the situation. That would probably be too much of a headache.

They already have that in place within the lore.

The reason PvP doesn't takes place outside Cyrodil is because, by a sort of gentlemans agreement that is the only place the fighting can take place. If you wre able to image their design as a living breathing world without artificial 'you cannot go here' faction borders then you would have enemy factions walking past each other on the streets, hurling abuse at each other and doing their best not to break the agreement but doing all thy could to get the other side to do so.

So this is another 'fudge' because they are constantly digging the whole they are in deeper because their original design was really too restrictive and unable to be opened up easily. They started with a very restrictive, tight design concept and are finding that it needs to be more open but are struggling to do so with any cohesive design. they should have started off with a loose design and tightened it up the closer they can to finalising the actual gameplay and feel they and their customer base wanted.

  Baikal

Tipster

Joined: 9/20/04
Posts: 1028

4/30/13 8:33:20 AM#84


Originally posted by Sovrath
I believe we already knew this from earlier info.

This isnt' a surprise.


And yet it is amazing how the information has been out there, but so few people understood it....Talk about a big reason why people get disappointed with titles, quite often if they bothered to find out about it, they'd suffer less disappointment because they'd know what the game really is offering. On an MMO website no less.....


Personally, it's a good call. ***EDIT**** It's a good call based on how Zenimax is doing things, that said, I think if they had a different foundation, there are better solutions, but considering what they are doing....

All of the RvR style PvP will be driven towards Cyrodill, for good or ill. If max level players from another faction are in the starter areas for my faction, look at the "mob challenge". My faction mobs needs to be say, 11-14 in an area, do I really want pockets of mobs that are 50+ in the same area? No. Since this is my chance to explore all of my own faction lands, I want to do it, for them, I suspect you'd want an area that is level appropriate as well.

Seeing as how Zenimax made the call to lock lands and factions, this solution makes sense to allow players who are leveling to have content that suits them, and for max level players to have content that suits them.

Everything is a compromise, and if that is the cost of doing it this way, I think it's a pretty fair trade off.

  PAL-18

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/14/13
Posts: 698

4/30/13 8:40:46 AM#85
Originally posted by ReeseFlamelocks
It does kind of make sense that the two groups would not see each other. If it's a PvE area and you are not allowed to PvP, then the two groups would just stare at each other and wonder stupidly why they aren't allowed to attack each other. They would need to justify the peace somehow using divine intervention or via a treaty arrangement in the context of the situation. That would probably be too much of a headache.

What does not make sense is that if theres enemy NPCs ,how come theres no enemy players .

 

 

 

 

 

So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
On the radar : http://www.darkestdungeon.com/

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

4/30/13 9:01:10 AM#86
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by ReeseFlamelocks
It does kind of make sense that the two groups would not see each other. If it's a PvE area and you are not allowed to PvP, then the two groups would just stare at each other and wonder stupidly why they aren't allowed to attack each other. They would need to justify the peace somehow using divine intervention or via a treaty arrangement in the context of the situation. That would probably be too much of a headache.

They already have that in place within the lore.

The reason PvP doesn't takes place outside Cyrodil is because, by a sort of gentlemans agreement that is the only place the fighting can take place. If you wre able to image their design as a living breathing world without artificial 'you cannot go here' faction borders then you would have enemy factions walking past each other on the streets, hurling abuse at each other and doing their best not to break the agreement but doing all thy could to get the other side to do so.

So this is another 'fudge' because they are constantly digging the whole they are in deeper because their original design was really too restrictive and unable to be opened up easily. They started with a very restrictive, tight design concept and are finding that it needs to be more open but are struggling to do so with any cohesive design. they should have started off with a loose design and tightened it up the closer they can to finalising the actual gameplay and feel they and their customer base wanted.

Dont act like you speak for the customer base. You speak for one group of players not the whole of TES fans. As for not fighting in the 3 faction locked areas. This fits real life in every way and real art should reflect real life where possible. Was not till the modern age did we bring war to the other sides home land unless that was the land we were fighting over. This was how wars were fought till we had planes and ships. Where this game is set it fits very well. Also as it stands its the only option for PvP that gives PURE PvEers their space to play and still gives a deep meaningful PvP game space for PvPers. PvP servers and PvE servers with flag system is a old over used model thats broken at its core. 

  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1598

4/30/13 9:15:16 AM#87

It sounds to me like they are making a high level version of the other factions lower level zones that high level players can play in.  How exactly would you propose allowing both high level and low level players play side by side in the same zone and both be challanged?

I think the anger over this comes down to the open world PVP crowd wanting their way.  Honestly PVP in a TSO game feels contrived to begin with so I think the PVP players shoudl be happy they are getting what they are.  I would have much rather seen this game PVE only to begin with and have them add PVP later once the game systems are completly fleshed out.  Imagine all the time they would have had for improving the PVE experience if they had not had to tack PVP on the game?  

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

4/30/13 9:20:08 AM#88
Originally posted by udon

It sounds to me like they are making a high level version of the other factions lower level zones that high level players can play in.  How exactly would you propose allowing both high level and low level players play side by side in the same zone and both be challanged?

I think the anger over this comes down to the open world PVP crowd wanting their way.  Honestly PVP in a TSO game feels contrived to begin with so I think the PVP players shoudl be happy they are getting what they are.  I would have much rather seen this game PVE only to begin with and have them add PVP later once the game systems are completly fleshed out.  Imagine all the time they would have had for improving the PVE experience if they had not had to tack PVP on the game?  

Thats another reason they went with the DAoC model. It does not touch PvE in any way. From gear balance to content. Two bubbles really in different worlds. Unlike games like WoW where PvEers toes are stepped on all the time to balance PvP. This will rarely happen with the model ESO is going with.

  Mothanos

Elite Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1794

4/30/13 9:24:41 AM#89

This is a doubled bladed sword...
How this turns out should remain to be seen.
At 1st i dint like this, but after giving it some tought it might work.

Thing is i lost faith in mmo studio's last year...
Spend so much money on failures that are rotting away in the trashcan.
Mmo's that looked most promesing turned out to be major disapointments.

ESO / AA / FF are looking ok, but wont touch it before a trial / 2 month old game reviews show up.

The days of throwing money at fail mmo's are over for me, no matter how good or promesing shit looks.

http://speedtest.net/result/2112016336.png

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7010

4/30/13 9:27:34 AM#90

They need to release infromation on RvR and Cyrodiil quick. 

 

It seem like they are going a long way to make sure PvP doesn't happen. Swtor did the samething with phased worlds.

 

The game is starting to look like a swtor/gw2 hybrid. Heavy instancing, phasing, with no world pvp.

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/30/13 9:30:01 AM#91
Adding pvp later never works out.

Example wow

Shit pvp, and because it wasn't designed for pvp in the first pave a never ending circle jerk of 1vs1 class balance problems.

Plus a bloody big % of people wouldn't buy a pve only mmo. fine for a niche game, not a big budget game like TESO
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/30/13 9:31:15 AM#92
Bully

Or like Ive said, look at the feature list. It's more tsw than daoc.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/30/13 9:33:53 AM#93
Nanfoodle
That's not quite true, pvp and pve ARE linked in daoc. If you have relics etc.. pve is easier. If you have darkness falls unlocked crafting is easier.

They aren't linked in TESO though. If your side is loosing In the campaign, just swap to a pve shard where your side Is winning.
  DocBrody

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/13
Posts: 1393

4/30/13 9:34:53 AM#94

I am astounded that designers found an even more lazy way to cater to the "only PVE" people than Bioware did with SWTOR.

At least Bioware has TWO versions of faction areas ( e.g Taris Night for Empire, Taris Day for Republic). TESO has ONE and simply phases out the opposing faction players?

This really sounds lame and immersion breaking. I hope it only SOUNDS that way and it is still a good game, but I look at this title more and more sceptical. Guess I won´t pre order and wait until it is out.

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

4/30/13 9:35:03 AM#95
Originally posted by bcbully

They need to release infromation on RvR and Cyrodiil quick. 

 

It seem like they are going a long way to make sure PvP doesn't happen. Swtor did the samething with phased worlds.

 

The game is starting to look like a swtor/gw2 hybrid. Heavy instancing, phasing, with no world pvp.

 

SWToR is far from ESO. In ToR you had worlds only your faction could visit (starter planets) and most of the worlds you could run into both factions. Often areas you quested in the other faction had quests there as well. As for GW2 clone... I dont see that at all. How do you mean?

  User Deleted
4/30/13 9:38:30 AM#96

Let's assume it's WWII and you have the axis powers and the allied powers.  If you were alligned with the axis powers, the axis would all be friendly to you.  In theory, if you could only play the axis, there would be no enemy players, just enemy NPCs.  If you could play the allied side, then you would have enemy players as well.  

 

They either limit you to one faction or side, meaning you are all good or all evil, not neutral or both... in which case it makes sense that no players are on the opposing faction, or

They phase you from seeing the other faction's enemies to basically split the game in two... your world is seen only from the eyes of your faction... thus no threat of attacks, you basically set the tone for the battles on your terms... as-in pre-programmed scripted quests.

 

In both of the above there can be no PVP, so to "introduce" it in a separate zone seems totally unbelievable.  Why am I now worried about enemy players when I wasn't before?  Why am I now playing the game differently than I was before?  You can't logically explain it.  You either have PVP all the time anywhere, or you don't have PVP at all.  Segregating PVP turns it into cage fighting... so long as I don't enter the cage, there is no PVP.  PVP isn't about an invitation to battle.  It is supposed to be unpredictable, unfair, and happen anywhere.  Once you make it predictable, fair, and zoned... it's not PVP, it's organized dodge ball, not PVP.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/30/13 9:41:06 AM#97
Nan, you don't see gw2 clone?
1 the combat
2 the teleported off "rvr" that Is completely separated from the pve (more gw2 than daoc, no relics and what have you effecting pve, no just walking over the border into the frontiers)
  DavisFlight

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2406

4/30/13 9:42:37 AM#98
Originally posted by JasonJ

We already know this, that is why it didnt quell TES fan anger because it wasnt want they were wanting, just like 1st person didnt do it. Their attempt, and it WAS an attempt (even stated by them at PAX), failed. They missed the majority of their target audience with this IP by using the DaoC model of closed factions.

Quick, send in the same 4 people that will say the same things they always say even though Zenimax themselves address this worry publicly. They were not targetting the extremely low quantity of diehard DaoC players, they want the TES fanbase, and they dont understand why they are so upset. Sure sign of a future full of trouble for a game when the makers are that disconnected from reality.

There's a shit load of DAoC fans out there, it was the second most successful MMO of its time, and most modern MMOs never reach DAoC's peak subscribers.

 

But will you people stop blaming all the flaws on "being like DAoC"?

This game is not trying to get the DAoC audience, or else there would be normal servers, no phasing, no instancing, and no quest based leveling.

Having closed factions isn't to specifically court DAoC fans, its just how you design proper RvR.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/30/13 9:44:30 AM#99
Pmiles
Nah that would be wow style pvp, timed matches between fixed sides.

With TESO we cant tell.
it could be done tiny zone like tsw fusang
It could be a huge area with plenty of opportunity for emergent behaviour like daoc frontiers or a planetside continent.

My guess is it will be somewhere in-between and feel a bit "instancey" and be completely divorced from pve - e.g. gw2 WVW.
  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

4/30/13 9:48:53 AM#100
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nan, you don't see gw2 clone?
1 the combat
2 the teleported off "rvr" that Is completely separated from the pve (more gw2 than daoc, no relics and what have you effecting pve, no just walking over the border into the frontiers)

They didnt copy that from GW2, if anything GW2 has a little taken from DAoC. The combat maybe a little but GW2 didnt bring us action combat, they took it and made it their own as well much like ESO is doing, much like a lot of new MMOs are doing. Also GW2 is much more twitch combat then ESO is. Their soft targetting is a lot differnt and GW2 dodge makes you invanerable over how ESO is doing. So it comes down more to positioning. Add in the blocking, sneak, heavy and light attacks and combat ends up playing nothing like GW2. I just dont see it.

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