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Zenimax Online Studios | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 04/04/14)  | Pub:Bethesda Softworks
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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » What will it take for this game to succeed?

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34 posts found
  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 708

 
OP  4/21/13 9:47:42 PM#1

Here's what I think. The MMO market is clearly saturated with mediocre games that haven't really changed the MMO formula for the last 10 years. The tried, overused, re-packaged, signed-sealed-delivered WoW model has ironically been the knife in the throat for several modern MMOs. Everquest Next could actually see their downfall before their own eyes and decided to do a complete design overhaul to remedy the situation.

 

Now here's my concern with ESO.

There were numerous reports from people who played the game at the PAX east stating the game did not play much different from the leak video. One prime example is Force's comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ZOHa2HKgs). Forget about the criticisms of the video itself like the graphics quality, I'm talking about the overall FEEL of the game which one can get enough of a sense of. They are all pretty much saying it is not going to be like Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind online but rather, a more typical MMO with lots of Elder Scrolls elements in the mix.

 

Now here's where I start to get worried about ESO.

So far this is looking more like an MMO that happens to be placed in the TES universe. The mere fact that the devs had qualms about adding in first person, an integral part of any TES game, implies that they were probably more focused on the MMO aspect of the game. But in a market that is heavily saturated with average MMOs that haven’t really done anything new, I think it is very risky to take this approach. People are not stupid, and if they see another MMO with the same thing done over a thousand times, more likely than not they will have little reason to stick around.

 

What needs to happen then?

In my mind it's quite simple actually. Zenimax needs to focus on making a true TES game that HAPPENS to have online capability. TES fans will be content because they get the true TES experience. And MMO fans will be pleased because an authentic, full-on TES game is a refreshing CHANGE from your standard, clicheed fantasy MMO. A fully fledged TES game in the MMO world would be the INNOVATION that MMOs need.

Everything that makes TES games great should still be there in precisely the right combination, just as they have always been- immersive gameplay, engaging quests, memorable storylines, rich lore, captivating music, elegant artstyle. This is what will set the game apart in the genre. This is what will entice players to stay. Don’t get me wrong, PvP and such has to also be great, but the primary concern should be to deliver that Elder Scrollsy feel we deeply connect with! Unfortunately, I'm not sure Zenimax even has the ability to do this without grabbing some of the devs working at Bethesda (Todd Howard, are you listening?).

 

I will end by saying I am an optimist, and there’s nothing more I wish than for this game to succeed. But after the leak video I began to have doubts. I really hope Zenimax ends up making the right decisions in the end, and tips the scale way more towards the TES side. I can’t help but think that doing otherwise would be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

(Note: I messed up the poll insert and can't edit it anymore, there were supposed to be more choices)

Where would you like to see the balance in TESO?

Elder Scrolls experience first!
IMMO
(login to vote)

  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

4/21/13 11:27:58 PM#2

Like all MMO's released in the last couple years the only thing lacking and the only thing this game needs is a Functioning and fun Endgame for the PvE and progression for the hardcore.

 

Thats it, it won't take much but besides PvP the only thing a game needs to to create enough PvE content to keep the people happy with enough progression and experiences to continue to hook the player into playing.

SUP

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2780

4/21/13 11:34:28 PM#3
Originally posted by superconducting

Here's what I think. The MMO market is clearly saturated with mediocre games that haven't really changed the MMO formula for the last 10 years. The tried, overused, re-packaged, signed-sealed-delivered WoW model has ironically been the knife in the throat for several modern MMOs. Everquest Next could actually see their downfall before their own eyes and decided to do a complete design overhaul to remedy the situation.

 

Now here's my concern with ESO.

There were numerous reports from people who played the game at the PAX east stating the game did not play much different from the leak video. One prime example is Force's comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ZOHa2HKgs). Forget about the criticisms of the video itself like the graphics quality, I'm talking about the overall FEEL of the game which one can get enough of a sense of. They are all pretty much saying it is not going to be like Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind online but rather, a more typical MMO with lots of Elder Scrolls elements in the mix.

 

Now here's where I start to get worried about ESO.

So far this is looking more like an MMO that happens to be placed in the TES universe. The mere fact that the devs had qualms about adding in first person, an integral part of any TES game, implies that they were probably more focused on the MMO aspect of the game. But in a market that is heavily saturated with average MMOs that haven’t really done anything new, I think it is very risky to take this approach. People are not stupid, and if they see another MMO with the same thing done over a thousand times, more likely than not they will have little reason to stick around.

 

What needs to happen then?

In my mind it's quite simple actually. Zenimax needs to focus on making a true TES game that HAPPENS to have online capability. TES fans will be content because they get the true TES experience. And MMO fans will be pleased because an authentic, full-on TES game is a refreshing CHANGE from your standard, clicheed fantasy MMO. A fully fledged TES game in the MMO world would be the INNOVATION that MMOs need.

Everything that makes TES games great should still be there in precisely the right combination, just as they have always been- immersive gameplay, engaging quests, memorable storylines, rich lore, captivating music, elegant artstyle. This is what will set the game apart in the genre. This is what will entice players to stay. Don’t get me wrong, PvP and such has to also be great, but the primary concern should be to deliver that Elder Scrollsy feel we deeply connect with! Unfortunately, I'm not sure Zenimax even has the ability to do this without grabbing some of the devs working at Bethesda (Todd Howard, are you listening?).

 

I will end by saying I am an optimist, and there’s nothing more I wish than for this game to succeed. But after the leak video I began to have doubts. I really hope Zenimax ends up making the right decisions in the end, and tips the scale way more towards the TES side. I can’t help but think that doing otherwise would be shooting themselves in the foot.

 

(Note: I messed up the poll insert and can't edit it anymore, there were supposed to be more choices)

I perrsonally don't believe a story driven game has suited the MMO yet and I don't believe ESO will change this factor. However, I believe they'll need to make a long lasting MMO over all else if they want to make this game work. I'm not holding my breath though; I'll be keeping my distance from this game and wait it out.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  baphamet

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2643

110100100

4/22/13 12:32:17 AM#4

if success is measured by longevity, then it has little hope to succeed.

IMO a massive amount of people will buy and play the game for a month or two as if it was a single player RPG, then move on.

then there will be a decent size core group of players that will remain, just like everything else that gets released now days.

for an mmo to have longevity like the old skool mmo's, it would have to be far and away better than anything else has to offer in this very saturated market.

i don't see TESO being that game honestly. but it should be pretty cool for what it is and worth every penny, compared to most console/single player games that have even less longevity but still cost the same.

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

4/22/13 8:28:02 AM#5

 

Story MMos dont last.

 

TSW, Swtor, and now Defiance.

Very short term appeal with no longevity for the dedicated mmo'er

 

Games like EQ, DAOC, Asherons call, and even WoW are successfull because of fun progression. not cut scenes.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17290

4/22/13 10:48:24 AM#6
Originally posted by superconducting They are all pretty much saying it is not going to be like Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind online but rather, a more typical MMO with lots of Elder Scrolls elements in the mix.

To be fair to Zenimax (even though I hate what they are doing to this game) they already said that it wasn't going to be skyrim online.

They said it was going to be an mmo with an Elder Scrolls setting.

The fault here is on the players for not paying attention.

 

  Galadourn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 1051

4/22/13 11:00:21 AM#7
hmm, it's gonna take a lot to make this into a success story; however my guess is Zenimax will instead go for damage control and change the payment model to make as much as possible....

http://kck.st/Xo38HT

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3491

4/22/13 11:41:13 AM#8
I dont know who would want a TSE MMO with group play and it stick with everything that made its a great single player RPG. That would just fail on so many levels. I buy a MMO because I want a MMO. I buy a single player RPG to play like a single player RPG. Of cores I want it to be a MMO first but I want it to pull in everything it can from the single player game it can that does not break the MMO model they pick and I am not talking about DAoC. If they picked SWG sandbox then make that work, if they picked WoW they make sure the MMO part of the model works!
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11514

4/22/13 11:57:45 AM#9
Originally posted by Sovrath

To be fair to Zenimax (even though I hate what they are doing to this game) they already said that it wasn't going to be skyrim online.

They said it was going to be an mmo with an Elder Scrolls setting.

The fault here is on the players for not paying attention.

that may be

but  game press is hyping it as Skyrim Online

http://www.gamefront.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-preview-its-like-skyrim-online/

 

 

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17290

4/22/13 12:02:00 PM#10
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Sovrath

To be fair to Zenimax (even though I hate what they are doing to this game) they already said that it wasn't going to be skyrim online.

They said it was going to be an mmo with an Elder Scrolls setting.

The fault here is on the players for not paying attention.

that may be

but  game press is hyping it as Skyrim Online

http://www.gamefront.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-preview-its-like-skyrim-online/

 

 

 

That's disgusting reporting.

I've actually seen other articles indicating it wasn't like "skyrim online".

So no wonder players are confused. What a shame.

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

4/22/13 12:23:33 PM#11
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by superconducting They are all pretty much saying it is not going to be like Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind online but rather, a more typical MMO with lots of Elder Scrolls elements in the mix.

To be fair to Zenimax (even though I hate what they are doing to this game) they already said that it wasn't going to be skyrim online.

They said it was going to be an mmo with an Elder Scrolls setting.

The fault here is on the players for not paying attention.

 

I'd actually be fine with everything they had atleast allowed a completely open world (PvP flag system outside your own Alliance's nations?) and didn't allow tab targeting. I'm fine with soft targeting but if I can just by-pass a person or creature to hit someone behind him I am a bit bothered by it. In the end it just removes the point of the crosshair.

Then again, the latter part hasn't quite been set in stone yet. But I have heard it around.

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

4/22/13 12:53:22 PM#12

I think the game will succeed depsite the hatemongering going on since the leaked video.

Though people have to stop creating imaginary images of what the game will be and actually look at what it is.  Given the media released and interviews from those with hands on experience it'll be an MMO in the Elder Scrolls universe with all that we have come to expect from MMOs.  It'll do some things differently but by and large it won't stray too far from the beaten path.

The basic game design won't change drastically from now until launch, it simply can't, they will have a budget to work to and it's far too late in the day to switch anything major.  The little touches that will make this a unique experience still have time to be altered or polished and that will ultimatly be the flavour of the series.  Will this upset people?  No doubt, but rather than try to find the next TES singleplayer experience (which will be years off given the release gaps between them), try and see this for what it is, a new chapter in the Elder Scrolls experience.

I still hold out hope for an enjoyable game, and I may very well get it, and I love the Elder Scrolls series.  The video didn't bother me at all, as it obviously was created with a goal in mind and showed very little that people really wanted to know more about that would differentiate this from any other MMO (skill trees and aquisition, abilities, combat mechanics beyond LMB...).

The biggest thing this game really needs to succeed is for the devs to not listen to anyone on random forums and create their vision.  The gaming community has shown repeatedly that it doesn't always know what it wants, quite often attacking the very thing it asked for.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 1:30:18 PM#13
1 make it possible to completely ignore quests and personal story stuff and still level just by following your compass and finding stuff to do.
2 not giving into the "faction lock is evil" brigade and implementing some crappy fudged rvr lite system in the vein of tsw or rift (if they want to make a pure pve server or ffa pvp server though, then great)
3 likewise not giving in to the instanced raid crew and implementing wow style gear progression at the expense of everyone else like crafters, pvpers and outdoor pveers. (vanilla EQ / daoc style raids would be great though)
4 not having a wow clone like glorified lobby game endgame with people sat in cities queueing to do stuff. Get people out in the world.
  BrucyBonus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 224

4/22/13 1:32:15 PM#14
The IP alone will not be enough for it to succeed; that is for sure.  In fact I think it will become a huge negative if the game does not feel like Elder Scrolls, but rather like a cash grab.  
  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

4/22/13 2:24:42 PM#15
Originally posted by Miblet

I think the game will succeed depsite the hatemongering going on since the leaked video.

Though people have to stop creating imaginary images of what the game will be and actually look at what it is.  Given the media released and interviews from those with hands on experience it'll be an MMO in the Elder Scrolls universe with all that we have come to expect from MMOs.  It'll do some things differently but by and large it won't stray too far from the beaten path.

The basic game design won't change drastically from now until launch, it simply can't, they will have a budget to work to and it's far too late in the day to switch anything major.  The little touches that will make this a unique experience still have time to be altered or polished and that will ultimatly be the flavour of the series.  Will this upset people?  No doubt, but rather than try to find the next TES singleplayer experience (which will be years off given the release gaps between them), try and see this for what it is, a new chapter in the Elder Scrolls experience.

I still hold out hope for an enjoyable game, and I may very well get it, and I love the Elder Scrolls series.  The video didn't bother me at all, as it obviously was created with a goal in mind and showed very little that people really wanted to know more about that would differentiate this from any other MMO (skill trees and aquisition, abilities, combat mechanics beyond LMB...).

The biggest thing this game really needs to succeed is for the devs to not listen to anyone on random forums and create their vision.  The gaming community has shown repeatedly that it doesn't always know what it wants, quite often attacking the very thing it asked for.

Not only will it succeed it will do much better once people start using word of mouth.

 

I am not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch of the imagination but a part of me can't help but wonder if this leak was used to temper expectations and drive down the hype of the game.  Then once release comes it starts growing ever so stronger due to its core systems being perfectly TES like and the progression and endgame is there from the start.

 

In the long run this leaked video will do more to assist zenimax then hurt it IMO.

SUP

  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 708

 
OP  4/22/13 7:23:36 PM#16
My response to the argument that story-driven MMOs don't generally go far is this:
Skyrim was a story-driven game that was offline, yet has among the most hours logged in any steam game with each player averaging 75 hours. Ask yourself- why is this? The bottom line is that there was still a whole lotta fun stuff to do! Whether it was questing, exploring, skilling, even modding, there was good reason to hang around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I think TESO just has to be good enough to stand on its own-- and that means being worthy of taking a place in TES series history in this case.


That being said, it may end up being a near-impossible task for ZOS to get this game just right.

Cater to the MMO fan and the TES fans get enraged. And I can tell you now, a halfway approach at an Elder Scrolls game is not going to be enough to please TES fans who have extremely high standards and expectations in terms of quality!

Cater to the TES fan, and the MMO fan feels left out. MMO fans will just move on to the next best thing if endgame content such as progression or PvP is not fun enough.

Somebody's bound to get hurt!


- By the way, did anyone else notice a month or so ago TESO used to be #1 on the hype list on the front page of MMORPG. It has now dropped to #7 on the list.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17290

4/22/13 7:30:10 PM#17
Originally posted by superconducting
My response to the argument that story-driven MMOs don't generally go far is this:
Skyrim was a story-driven game that was offline, yet has among the most hours logged in any steam game with each player averaging 75 hours. Ask yourself- why is this? The bottom line is that there was still a whole lotta fun stuff to do! Whether it was questing, exploring, skilling, even modding, there was good reason to hang around.


 

I agree. What's more, I firmly believe SWToR would have been a lot more successful had they built in more elements that allowed players to have fun "after" the story stuff.

 

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/22/13 7:35:39 PM#18

succeed...what is success?

Ask any SWTOR fanboy and they will say its a success...then go ask the original developers that got fired, the team that got fired after that and the now former CEO of EA if SWTOR was a success or the bane of their careers.

It will be the same with TESO. The IP was chosen for its popularity and yet the base game design has the majority of its fans in an uproar for its limited design features that no amount of NPC names or TES graphics can make them play it. I still have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that it will easily sell over 1 million copies just due to how most non-mmo players that are TES fans that will end up buying it without knowing anything about it...and then end up quiting after a monther or two which will then be followed by the newer MMO players that will buy it because they want a new MMO and see nice shiney graphics that will end up quiting because the game is chopped up into 3 and they will think its a horrible game because they dont want to be funneled into PvP lands.

In the end, the game will make a profit and in so doing, make a lot of developers unemployed and hopefully...a CEO as well.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 7:38:26 PM#19
Originally posted by JasonJ

succeed...what is success?

Ask any SWTOR fanboy and they will say its a success...then go ask the original developers that got fired, the team that got fired after that and the now former CEO of EA if SWTOR was a success or the bane of their careers.

It will be the same with TESO. The IP was chosen for its popularity and yet the base game design has the majority of its fans in an uproar for its limited design features that no amount of NPC names or TES graphics can make them play it. I still have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that it will easily sell over 1 million copies just due to how most non-mmo players that are TES fans that will end up buying it without knowing anything about it...and then end up quiting after a monther or two which will then be followed by the newer MMO players that will buy it because they want a new MMO and see nice shiney graphics that will end up quiting because the game is chopped up into 3 and they will think its a horrible game because they dont want to be funneled into PvP lands.

In the end, the game will make a profit and in so doing, make a lot of developers unemployed and hopefully...a CEO as well.

i love KOTOR

i hate SWTOR

so on that you have a poin, rest is hyperbole though..

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/22/13 7:46:03 PM#20
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by JasonJ

succeed...what is success?

Ask any SWTOR fanboy and they will say its a success...then go ask the original developers that got fired, the team that got fired after that and the now former CEO of EA if SWTOR was a success or the bane of their careers.

It will be the same with TESO. The IP was chosen for its popularity and yet the base game design has the majority of its fans in an uproar for its limited design features that no amount of NPC names or TES graphics can make them play it. I still have NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that it will easily sell over 1 million copies just due to how most non-mmo players that are TES fans that will end up buying it without knowing anything about it...and then end up quiting after a monther or two which will then be followed by the newer MMO players that will buy it because they want a new MMO and see nice shiney graphics that will end up quiting because the game is chopped up into 3 and they will think its a horrible game because they dont want to be funneled into PvP lands.

In the end, the game will make a profit and in so doing, make a lot of developers unemployed and hopefully...a CEO as well.

i love KOTOR

i hate SWTOR

so on that you have a poin, rest is hyperbole though..

Its true, the part where I said it will sell well is pure hyerbole because it was the only part actually solely based on opinion and not something tangable.

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