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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » This is how I would of created Elder Scrolls Online

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64 posts found
  CerebralM

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 21

4/18/13 4:00:21 AM#21
and I would never play this game because I could just play skyrim
  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/18/13 4:42:46 AM#22

I'm going to avoid the could of and could have debate, I think that's been covered. What I would like to add is my take on these ideas in the OP and where I disagree and would go a different way.

 

So to start off, the engine couldn't be the Skyrim engine for the simple reason that you'd be trying to use a single player game engine for an MMO and the priorities are totally different. If you use a single player game engine and you have a lot of people on screen using abilities and effects going off you end up with a slideshow. That means you need an engine designed for an MMO from the ground up.

 

The setting I'm not too worried about but it doesn't have to be too closely tied to Skyrim in my opinion.

 

PvP is a tough one. Personally I've always thought that PvP in MMORPG's has been handled poorly. If it can't be done well then I'd rather see it left out. As far as TES goes, a more FFA approach would seem logical, but I wouldn't want to see a MO or DF approach or you end up with a gankfest ghost town of an MMO. You'd need a system like EVE uses to curtail the griefers. If it can be included in a logical and well designed way that can't be easily abused, then fine. If not I'd just leave it out.

 

Classes would need to be templates only. If I start playing as a warrior type I should be able to completely change my playstyle to play as a mage if I choose. No restrictions.

 

I don't think having an AH is a big problem.

 

Lots of people go on about certain mechanics having negative effects on community. Some say an AH does this, for others it's LFD tools. For me, Global Chat is one tool which fosters community. It allows experienced players the chance to offer advice to new players. I'm not in favour of a "no global chat" policy.

 

I don't see the need for a crafting class because I wouldn't have class restrictions anyway. Anyone can learn to make a table in my version of TES:O.

 

40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.

 

The rest of it looks fine.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

4/18/13 5:01:47 AM#23
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.

 

The rest of it looks fine.

I hear you on this, however, let me add something to consider.

'Bring whoever you want' boss fights or let's call them 'raid-scale challenges' have one primary problem when it comes to programming them, this being of course, scalability.

One of the things I admired about GW2 was their reasonable attempt the do this with their DE's and world bosses.

But - they by no means entirely cracked it, usually falling back on rather bland and unsatisfying 'more HPs', 'more trash mobs', 'more aoe' management tools.

Additionally, their scaling system clearly had a certain tolerance ceiling, above which scaling didn't work and fights became easy 'dps-for-the-win' fights.

Whilst the elements mentioned have their place in a scalable raid-scale challenge, there must also be other variations to make it truly work.

Putting aside the gating, leetism and other nagative aspects of raiding, there is something very satisfying in taking down a techically challenging boss and having to really work at it to do so. Most people who have raided get a kick out of being in a team which has to work well together to succeed, and where total failure is a real threat.

Technical challenge is what scalability (so far) has sacrificed, and it was, in my opinion, the worst thing they could have sacrificed.

I understand this has been because of the difficulties inherent to more freefrom raid-scale challenges, but that doesn't mean it is excusable indeffinately.

When we see a scalable challenge system in an MMO that retains these entertaining technical and skill challenges, and scales these, then we will have what we have been waiting for, and not before time too!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 5:07:05 AM#24
You do realise your design would limit the game to like 100 players per server. Or make it even more phased / Instanced
  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/18/13 8:30:14 AM#25
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You do realise your design would limit the game to like 100 players per server. Or make it even more phased / Instanced

Care to explain why? EQ played the way I describe with no instancing and thousands of players per server.

  amalmer1

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 6

4/18/13 8:35:42 AM#26
I stopped reading when I got to th line where you said you would let the players become the dragonborn.  1 million dragonborns running around just seems silly to me.
  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/18/13 8:57:34 AM#27
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.

 

The rest of it looks fine.

I hear you on this, however, let me add something to consider.

'Bring whoever you want' boss fights or let's call them 'raid-scale challenges' have one primary problem when it comes to programming them, this being of course, scalability.

<snip>

 

I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".

I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.

At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low"  or  "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS"  or  "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.

 

If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.

"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they?  They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.

Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.

 

And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 9:13:06 AM#28
Jcm:
Hmmm tiny hamlet becomes a 5000 house mini city.
EVERYONE can become a jarl, that's a shitload of new provinces in skyrim
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 9:14:22 AM#29
Jcm

BTW, if this game was truly a daoc clone, that's how raids would work anyway.
  Total_Hunt

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/13
Posts: 66

4/18/13 9:25:50 AM#30

I would have criticized the grammar in this thread's title, but I thought better of it.

 

OT: I just think that the Elder Scrolls series and MMORPG's shouldn't have had a baby. Unless we are all just peons - farmers, traders, blacksmiths etc. and the heros are NPC's. That would be interesting.

 

I lol'd at the idea of millions of Dragonborn running around :)

 

 

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/18/13 9:27:39 AM#31
Originally posted by Purutzil
Then you would of realized how insanely difficult your work would be to be pulled off in an MMO setting and no where remotely near as easy and would of stopped production and worked on the TESO that exists today due to limitations of both the average consumer's computer and network limitations among other things.

Total 100% BS that will not fool anyone not willing to toss out every single MMO ever made outside of that steaming PoS that was DaoC.

There are MMOs that are completely open world.

There are MMOs that do not have closed off factions.

There are MMOs that have PvP out in the open and not instanced.

There are MMOs capable of having 100s of people in a small area.

Thus, it CAN be done and no, no, networks are not limited like that and if you believe that, then you are used to playing piss poor MMOs made by really bad programmers.

 

Easy...ooh it would be too hard to make so lets just create another stagnant MMO with vastly limited game design...yeah, lets make another SWTOR type game because it would be hard to do it better.

And people wonder why the genre is becoming stagnant?

  rensta

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/08
Posts: 281

"Girlfriends come and go but epic items are soulbound"

4/18/13 9:28:24 AM#32
But you dident creat elder scrolls online... 


Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/18/13 9:36:34 AM#33
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Jcm:
Hmmm tiny hamlet becomes a 5000 house mini city.
EVERYONE can become a jarl, that's a shitload of new provinces in skyrim

I think the political system the OP was talking about isn't one where everyone can become a jarl, but anyone can try to become The Jarl. A bit like Highlander, there can be only one. TERA has this sort of thing where a guild leader can run for office to control a province and players vote for them.

As for the 5000 house mini city, well SWG had player housing you could place anywhere and it just doesn't happen that way. People tend to spread out. Guilds will make their own towns which may become cities. What's wrong with that? I still don't see the problem. The guild I was in when I played SWG had a huge town, maybe 200 buildings, a town hall, a central square with a fountain, we even had our own shuttle port. Tehcnically, it's absolutely achievable. This stuff was in MMO's 15 years ago. It's the modern ones that leave housing out.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2644

110100100

4/18/13 9:39:21 AM#34


Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk 40 man raids. No thanks. Bosses? Damn right! 40 man raids? No way! Bring as many as you want, no restrictions. Does this trivialise content or does it make it more accessible? If you have a group of very powerfull friends then you can try to kill that dragon with just 10 of you. If you lack the experience and skill to do that, bring an army. This is one of my pet hates with current MMO's and something I think is taking the "Massive" out of the genre.   The rest of it looks fine.
I hear you on this, however, let me add something to consider. 'Bring whoever you want' boss fights or let's call them 'raid-scale challenges' have one primary problem when it comes to programming them, this being of course, scalability. <snip>
 

I never mentioned scalability. In fact, I don't want scalability. I'm talking about the way bosses where in EQ. How many times did you see talk in chat about how <insert guild here> took down Naggy with only 16 players? Then 14, then 12. People would be saying "Holy shit! How did they manage that?".

I'm talking bragging rights for the elite few who can pull off amazing victories with a small group of players. That's only possible when there isn't scaling. It makes their achievement that much more impressive.

At the same time that content isn't denied to others who would be left out of your 40 man raids because "sorry bud but your gearscore is too low"  or  "but we have 2 warriors already and we need more DPS"  or  "I only have 2 places left and we need more healers". We've all experienced this in WoW and it blows goats.

 

If your guild can't take that boss with 40 people then take 60. Still having problems, ok then take 80. Take as many as you need to get the job done. Start shouting in local chat and get anyone available to help you out. You want community? There's an example of how it gets built.

"Oh but that's just a zerg" you may say. So what? It's not affecting you is it? All it's doing is allowing someone else, who has also bought the game, is paying the same monthly subscription but is in a smaller, less hardcore guild the same opportunity to play the same content. And why shouldn't they?  They paid for it! I see no reason to exclude a paying customer from content for some bogus reason like the need for a certain level of gear to allow them to contribute enough dps/tanking/healing when the numbers are limited to 10/25/40 whatever.

Just let them play the content. Let them play the game, they paid for it. If they get their arses handed to them, they have two options. Get better gear, or take more people next time. I don't see the problem with that. The choice is their's. And that's the key here - Choice! Give the choices back to the players instead of holding their hands so much.

 

And something else I forgot before. Crafted gear need to be the best available. If you want loot off bosses then it should be in the form of materials for crafting uber gear. I don't want to see another tiered kit chase in a game, ever.


i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.

you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?

what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.

i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.

ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.

its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.

but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 896

4/18/13 9:56:09 AM#35
Originally posted by baphamet
Snip

 

i am not saying i like the current way raids are handled with a raid limit, since i refuse to raid anymore, but i do see why games do it.

you honestly think its better to be allowed to zerg bosses down? you then realize that bosses must be balanced for huge 80 man zergs then? or do you think it should be trivial no matter what boss you fight if you bring enough people?

what that does is alienate all the smaller guilds, when i say smaller guilds i am talking about guilds that are not really that small but not the biggest on the server to be able to get 80-100 people together at the same time to kill a boss.

i understand what you are saying about needing only certain classes and all that but its a necessary evil IMO to be able to balance the content.

ive raided both ways (EQ1 and vanilla wow) and i think the balanced 40/25 man style is better to balance for that exact number of people instead of a gigantic force only.

its also more challenging (unless you purposely bring less people like you mentioned) and it allows more guilds to be able to do the content.

but hey, i wont do it anymore either way so its whatever.

I didn't suggest balancing bosses for an 80 man zerg. Balance them for a 40 man raid, or 25 I don't really care. What I'm saying is that if you can't beat that boss with 40, then take 50, or 60.

Yeah I know some people call this a zerg. I call it allowing players access to content they have paid for. I'm saying give the players the choice to go and try to beat this boss wearing their trashy green items if they want. I'm saying why do we need to leave this guy out of the raid because we're full? Let's take him along anyway even if it means there's 41 of us.

I'm saying to the developers, stop placing restrictions on us! Let us make that choice. No more "you can't go here because you need to be "x" level and you need 25 men to do this and your gear needs to be <this> level. Screw that! I'm going now and I'm taking everyone I can find. I'm gonna have a big, mad, furious, chaotic, insane battle with fireballs and magic missiles and nuclear explosions and lighting bolts. YEAH! How is that not fun?

And the elitists can still impress us all by doing the same fight with 15, or 12 or 10 and people all over the game will be amazed and bow down in worship (well maybe not).

This is going to be a subscription based game most likely. I'll be paying the same monthly fee as everyone else. Nobody is going to tell me I can't go and fight some boss for some arbitrary reason, be it level or gear or because there's too may already. Bullshit. That's my feelings anyway but it's all hypothetical.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 9:56:45 AM#36
The thing with swg it had huge empty areas to build houses.

The trouble with tamriel, we already know how 4 of the provinces look. It would kinda ruin the world if say half the people on the server decided to build their houses in whiterun.

So how do you do housing, well I wouldn't want instanced housing like eq2 as well its just pointless.

You could use a Ao style apartment block thing but that wouldn't fit the setting.

What I think they will do if they ever do housing is probably daoc style with a separate non instanced zone for housing, where you can build your villages next to your guild mates, have stores etc.. but that still has the problem of where would you put it as the world of tamriel is already mapped.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 9:58:44 AM#37
Jmc
I think they should add vanilla EQ / daoc style raiding too. Wouldn't like later day EQ / wow style raiding though, takes too many players out of the world and attracts / encourages elitist jerks.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/18/13 10:02:00 AM#38
I also disagree that instanced raiding is more challenging. Some of the raids in daoc have only been done a handful of times in the world ever. I once did one that took 6+ hours to complete. Open world raids don't have to be gw2 easy mode. I imagine EQ early raids were somewhat simmilar.
  Magnetia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 971

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

4/18/13 10:03:13 AM#39

If you can fork out 175 million dollars and unlimited time they would be happy to do it for you. They cost about 60-100+ million dollars to make and the MMO you are proposing would be a phenominal feat technically and financially.

 

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2540

4/18/13 10:06:56 AM#40

40 man raid lol no thx thats one things that absolutely don't belong in TES games.

Game will be totally ruined if instance grinding get hold of such game.

TES games should always be open free roaming worlds and open dungeons.

Game should be about exploring and discover monsters that need more players but not in instance also don't belong in TES games sandbox open world with total freedom.

But not gonne happen they made a themepark for causals with ezmode.

TESO is not a real TES game just a money grab thats all.

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