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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Will the real ESO please stand-up?

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252 posts found
  Sentnl

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 79

3/30/13 6:30:16 PM#121
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Sentnl
I hope half you realise that you're speaking nonsense...

 

WoW came from the warcraft series, were they alike!? I couldn't build any barracks...

Warhammer came from a miniature game, I couldn't roll any physical dice, oh my god!

Swtor came from a fictional story, believe it or not... etc.

THIS IS NOT THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Let it be ffs, let it become it's own entity, dont disturb it. If you're lucky enough to also get a beta key, you can come help send feedback on its great features.



Some change will occur. That is inevitable. Nobody will be The Nerevarine or Dohvakiin. Not one of *my* expectations.

 

Your examples were nothing but petulant flame-bait. You took the most absurd things you could think of and tried to compare them to legitimate concerns. Are you really that stupid to believe what you wrote has any validity?

Oh sorry, I guess directly porting a single player game into an mmorpg makes perfect sense. *facepalm*

My examples are legitamate, an mmorpg is a seperate genre, and games have evolved into mmorpgs from other sources.

It's like, look... you have an eevee, and I give it a thunderstone. Sure, you're eevee was neat, and cool; However, now you don't have an eevee, it's something different, based on an eevee, and you will love it.

I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 9:00:35 PM#122
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Sentnl
I hope half you realise that you're speaking nonsense...

 

WoW came from the warcraft series, were they alike!? I couldn't build any barracks...

Warhammer came from a miniature game, I couldn't roll any physical dice, oh my god!

Swtor came from a fictional story, believe it or not... etc.

THIS IS NOT THE SINGLE PLAYER GAME YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

Let it be ffs, let it become it's own entity, dont disturb it. If you're lucky enough to also get a beta key, you can come help send feedback on its great features.



Some change will occur. That is inevitable. Nobody will be The Nerevarine or Dohvakiin. Not one of *my* expectations.

 

Your examples were nothing but petulant flame-bait. You took the most absurd things you could think of and tried to compare them to legitimate concerns. Are you really that stupid to believe what you wrote has any validity?

 

He is 100% correct.  The vocal ES fans are competely delusional in their expectations.   Despite the fact they are being catered to infinitely more than SW or WC were. 

FFS they are creating a First person view JUST for these people, and they know damn well that only a very small minority will ever use it extensively.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/30/13 9:13:44 PM#123
Originally posted by Byrhofen

Thing is, nobody should be expecting the freedom of choice that is available in a single player RPG, to exist in an MMORPG.

So yes, reducing the choice's available is, in some ways, brilliant.

 Thing is, nobody should be expecting the freedom of choice to be removed in an MMO seeing as how MMOs are aviable that allow such a choice...just like a single player game.

So yes, reducing the choice's available is, in every way, foolish and limting.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 9:15:03 PM#124
Originally posted by elohssa

...and they know damn well that only a very small minority will ever use it extensively.

You see, I have a seriously problem with that phrase.  You have NO IDEA how many people would be using it.  Do you really think a multimillion dollar project will be altered because a "few" people wanted FPV?  You are not privy to their statistics but I can guarantee it was A LOT MORE than just a few people. Forum users like us are the minority, we do not know what the silent majority wants.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 9:20:12 PM#125
Originally posted by jtcgs

So yes, reducing the choice's available is, in every way, foolish and limting.

I agree with this, moreso because it's an Elder Scrolls game.  If they would've made up an IP, locked the races into factions and I wouldn't have cared the least bit.

Limiting players choice such as factions is quite foolish considering the franchise they are trying to represent.  It is not needed, players would still have faction pride (maybe even more) if they was able to choose their own factions.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 9:33:44 PM#126
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by elohssa

...and they know damn well that only a very small minority will ever use it extensively.

You see, I have a seriously problem with that phrase.  You have NO IDEA how many people would be using it.  Do you really think a multimillion dollar project will be altered because a "few" people wanted FPV?  You are not privy to their statistics but I can guarantee it was A LOT MORE than just a few people. Forum users like us are the minority, we do not know what the silent majority wants.


Actually I do for numerous reasons.

 

1stPV is drastically inferior to 3rdPV in an MMO for PvE, and especially in PvP.

Most people use what works fist, and what is flavor second.

The devs didn't have it in the game originally, thus they considered it to be an unimportant feature that would spacely be used.

In an interview the devs said that it was inferior view for an MMO. 

The devs only put it in the game because of feedback from ES fans.  Also said in the same interview.

 

Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by jtcgs

So yes, reducing the choice's available is, in every way, foolish and limting.

I agree with this, moreso because it's an Elder Scrolls game.  If they would've made up an IP, locked the races into factions and I wouldn't have cared the least bit.

Limiting players choice such as factions is quite foolish considering the franchise they are trying to represent.  It is not needed, players would still have faction pride (maybe even more) if they was able to choose their own factions.

You guys are INSANE!

 

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 9:42:52 PM#127
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by elohssa

...and they know damn well that only a very small minority will ever use it extensively.

You see, I have a seriously problem with that phrase.  You have NO IDEA how many people would be using it.  Do you really think a multimillion dollar project will be altered because a "few" people wanted FPV?  You are not privy to their statistics but I can guarantee it was A LOT MORE than just a few people. Forum users like us are the minority, we do not know what the silent majority wants.


Actually I do for numerous reasons.

1stPV is drastically inferior to 3rdPV in an MMO for PvE, and especially in PvP.

Most people use what works fist, and what is flavor second.

The devs didn't have it in the game originally, thus they considered it to be an unimportant feature that would spacely be used.

In an interview the devs said that it was inferior view for an MMO. 

The devs only put it in the game because of feedback from ES fans.  Also said in the same interview.

None of this supports that FPV players are in the minority.  Where are the numbers, you only listed personal assumptions.  The devs put it in because of the feedback from PLAYERS/TESTERS (not 'es fans'), we do not know how many asked for it.  It is illogical to assume that they changed their game for a 'few' people.

 

Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by jtcgs

So yes, reducing the choice's available is, in every way, foolish and limting.

I agree with this, moreso because it's an Elder Scrolls game.  If they would've made up an IP, locked the races into factions and I wouldn't have cared the least bit.

Limiting players choice such as factions is quite foolish considering the franchise they are trying to represent.  It is not needed, players would still have faction pride (maybe even more) if they was able to choose their own factions.

You guys are INSANE!

You call us insane yet you think a company is going to alter a multimillion dollar project to please a 'few' people.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/30/13 10:17:12 PM#128
Originally posted by sapphen

None of this supports that FPV players are in the minority.  Where are the numbers, you only listed personal assumptions.  The devs put it in because of the feedback from PLAYERS/TESTERS (not 'es fans'), we do not know how many asked for it.  It is illogical to assume that they changed their game for a 'few' people.

Sure it does. Players almost in their entirety play in the path of least resistence, especially when the the difference between what is considered "fun" and what is considered "not fun" is large. Direct numbers do not need to be given or even found if the previous trends are shown to be true. It is not hard to draw the conclusion.

You call us insane yet you think a company is going to alter a multimillion dollar project to please a 'few' people.

It happens all the time thanks to those who hold the purse strings having more power than the actual developers. You see it all the time with games that get "features" that are obviously tacked on. Every amazing single player shooter that has had multiplayer tacked on in the last 5 years for example. Beyond that, look at the sheer amount of work that goes into making the demo builds for the convention circuit? Some studios go so far as splitting off 10-15 people to form their own team just to make builds to showcase. Think of the sheer amounts of money that alone entails for a little bit of marketing!

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2726

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/30/13 10:21:41 PM#129
Originally posted by hMJem
WoW effectively killed the MMORPG genre by taking Everquest and expanding upon it with its good parts. Everyone is looking for the next universally played MMO in majority. I still think WoW is a good game in its current state, but everyones expectations are "I want to be addictted and play it for years" with every new MMO that comes out.

WoW would of been a much bigger and better MMO if they didnt focus on the casualification of its systems.  LOL @ Pokemon.  Game is in serious need of player and guild housing and real open world content.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 10:32:43 PM#130
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by sapphen

None of this supports that FPV players are in the minority.  Where are the numbers, you only listed personal assumptions.  The devs put it in because of the feedback from PLAYERS/TESTERS (not 'es fans'), we do not know how many asked for it.  It is illogical to assume that they changed their game for a 'few' people.

Sure it does. Players almost in their entirety play in the path of least resistence, especially when the the difference between what is considered "fun" and what is considered "not fun" is large. Direct numbers do not need to be given or even found if the previous trends are shown to be true. It is not hard to draw the conclusion.

What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

 

You call us insane yet you think a company is going to alter a multimillion dollar project to please a 'few' people.

It happens all the time thanks to those who hold the purse strings having more power than the actual developers. You see it all the time with games that get "features" that are obviously tacked on. Every amazing single player shooter that has had multiplayer tacked on in the last 5 years for example. Beyond that, look at the sheer amount of work that goes into making the demo builds for the convention circuit? Some studios go so far as splitting off 10-15 people to form their own team just to make builds to showcase. Think of the sheer amounts of money that alone entails for a little bit of marketing!

Not even following you on this paragraph.  Are you saying that people who are in favor of FPV have "purse strings" over the developers?  Where are you going with the development costs, none of this makes sense to me.

I'm pretty sure they added FPV because the numbers say they will make more money with it, than without.  Any moneybag investing in the game is most likely to follow these numbers than their personal preference.  You have to design for your audience, there is no secret group of people trying to destroy the game by adding in non-essential features.
  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 10:36:52 PM#131
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by hMJem
WoW effectively killed the MMORPG genre by taking Everquest and expanding upon it with its good parts. Everyone is looking for the next universally played MMO in majority. I still think WoW is a good game in its current state, but everyones expectations are "I want to be addictted and play it for years" with every new MMO that comes out.

WoW would of been a much bigger and better MMO if they didnt focus on the casualification of its systems.  LOL @ Pokemon.  Game is in serious need of player and guild housing and real open world content.

Personally, I would like WoW better if they didn't go casual BUT I think by moving to casual, they became big.  There is so much in WoW that they can cater to casual players, hardcore arena PvP'rs, ranked battleground PvP'rs, and hardcore raiders (although I miss the 40 man runs, it seemed a lot more hardcore to me).

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17131

3/30/13 10:48:17 PM#132
Originally posted by elohssa
 

 

He is 100% correct.  The vocal ES fans are competely delusional in their expectations.   Despite the fact they are being catered to infinitely more than SW or WC were. 

FFS they are creating a First person view JUST for these people, and they know damn well that only a very small minority will ever use it extensively.

I don't think the "Vocal ES fans" are delusional at all.

What do they want?

Open world with freedom to go where they want. Seems to me the thrust of many of these forum conversations are about why mmo's have moved from open world design to claustrophobic maps or a linear world with quest hub, quest hubs QUEST HUBS!

For a group of players who have played a game that is solely pve the want to share that experience with others. There are plenty of games that have pve servers for players who dont' want to pve and who want to engage in social play and questing and exploring. Granted, ESO is partly a pvp game now and to some ES fans they are baffled as to the "why".

As far as first person view, I know this is going to come as a shock to you but there is a large portion of ES players who prefer first person view. This is partly because the first games seemed to be all about the first person view and even though the ES games have evolved with a better third person view, many still play solely in first person view. Todd Howard even said himself that that is his preferred way to play ES games. If anyting it's an incredible immersion tool and quite frankly I think more games should solely have first person combat. Why should you be able to see a bird's eye view all around you. How much more tactical combat would be if you had to make a choice as to where you were facing, what was at your back, etc.

It being an mmo doesn't mitigate that 1st person view is immersive and does work. So for the pve portions there will be many ES players playing in first person view.

Once again, the problem with this title is that you have pvp players, mmo players and then the ES players. Of course there is overlap but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that those who have been ES players all these years might actually be interested in an actual ES mmo as a multiplayer ES game. This shouldn't be surprising.

Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

 
OP  3/30/13 10:57:44 PM#133
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by hMJem
WoW effectively killed the MMORPG genre by taking Everquest and expanding upon it with its good parts. Everyone is looking for the next universally played MMO in majority. I still think WoW is a good game in its current state, but everyones expectations are "I want to be addictted and play it for years" with every new MMO that comes out.

WoW would of been a much bigger and better MMO if they didnt focus on the casualification of its systems.  LOL @ Pokemon.  Game is in serious need of player and guild housing and real open world content.

Personally, I would like WoW better if they didn't go casual BUT I think by moving to casual, they became big.  There is so much in WoW that they can cater to casual players, hardcore arena PvP'rs, ranked battleground PvP'rs, and hardcore raiders (although I miss the 40 man runs, it seemed a lot more hardcore to me).

So that's a fair trade off in your mind? Turning a game that was already funky and cartoonish to begin with into a parody of itself because that provides more choice and attracts more people? WOW is just a lobby now where people go off in their own separate (mostly solo or quick little PUGs with starangers) directions to do the tiny little chunk of it that they like. Sounds like you're saying that's the way to do MMOs. By that logic Dancing with the Stars should be the model for future TV series.

To me there's a difference between quality and popularity. The Wire is quality. Dancing with the Stars is popular. The Secret World is quality. WOW is popular.

"Freedom of Choice" at all costs is a piss poor way to develop an MMO...unless of course, all you care about is the $$. Then popular and "something for everyone" is most definitely the way to go.

Vision, focus and artistic integrity is how you get quality. Pandering to the masses is how you get popularity.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 10:58:22 PM#134
Originally posted by Sovrath

Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

ROFL! +1

Face meets mirror.

 

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 10:59:14 PM#135
Originally posted by sapphen

None of this supports that FPV players are in the minority.  Where are the numbers, you only listed personal assumptions.  The devs put it in because of the feedback from PLAYERS/TESTERS (not 'es fans'), we do not know how many asked for it.  It is illogical to assume that they changed their game for a 'few' people.

Of course they do.....  You are just stomping your feet and holding your breath while screaming it isn't so.  Any unbiased person can look at the above data and say that most won't use it.   And your sole argument to prove me wrong is to demand info that you damn well know doesn't exist.  Past trrends do exist however, and we can easily conclude from them that what I said was true.

 

I didn't say a few people.  Skyrim sold like 15 million copies on PC and Console total.  That is a huge audience of people you want to please.  However, only a small portion of them will play ESO, and only a portion of those will ever use the single player view, and only an extremely small portion will continue to use said view as it is drastically inferior to 3rd person, and only a small portion of those players will continue playing beyond the first few months.

 

 

Also this, well said,

Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by sapphen

None of this supports that FPV players are in the minority.  Where are the numbers, you only listed personal assumptions.  The devs put it in because of the feedback from PLAYERS/TESTERS (not 'es fans'), we do not know how many asked for it.  It is illogical to assume that they changed their game for a 'few' people.

Sure it does. Players almost in their entirety play in the path of least resistence, especially when the the difference between what is considered "fun" and what is considered "not fun" is large. Direct numbers do not need to be given or even found if the previous trends are shown to be true. It is not hard to draw the conclusion.

You call us insane yet you think a company is going to alter a multimillion dollar project to please a 'few' people.

It happens all the time thanks to those who hold the purse strings having more power than the actual developers. You see it all the time with games that get "features" that are obviously tacked on. Every amazing single player shooter that has had multiplayer tacked on in the last 5 years for example. Beyond that, look at the sheer amount of work that goes into making the demo builds for the convention circuit? Some studios go so far as splitting off 10-15 people to form their own team just to make builds to showcase. Think of the sheer amounts of money that alone entails for a little bit of marketing!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

 
OP  3/30/13 11:02:42 PM#136
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Sovrath

Just as DAoC players are expectign a full fledged 3 faction experience. If DAoC 2 was being made and they made it ffa pvp instead of 3 faction, do you think for a minute that DAoC players wouldn't have something to say about it?

ROFL! +1

Face meets mirror.

 

And mirror reflects an inferior cobbled together mess in both a ffa DAoC and a TES lobby game. You do know you want a TES lobby don't you?

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/30/13 11:03:29 PM#137
Originally posted by sapphen

What makes you think everyone considers TPV the "path of least resistence" ~ What if they have plans to make FPV-only Cyrodiil Campaigns?  Some people may consider FPV more fun than TPV.  Nonetheless it's still an assumption and using a phrase like "small minority" is illogical.  There was a large enough group that asked for FPV, thereforth it is added into the game.

Out of curiosity were you using "illogical" ironically? Cause if not you should check the definition cause yeah...

Anyway, even with ignoring the "what if" you decided to toss in there the number of times experiments like you propose have actually been wildly popular are extremely few and far between. Even then they require a non deviance from the ruleset. Things like the perma death server for Aoc for example. The reason they won't do things like that is because fov matters in terms of balance. They will not rebalance 400+ abilities for that sort of pvp experience. Fov matters.


Not even following you on this paragraph.  Are you saying that people who are in favor of FPV have "purse strings" over the developers?  Where are you going with the development costs, none of this makes sense to me.

I'm pretty sure they added FPV because the numbers say they will make more money with it, than without.  Any moneybag investing in the game is most likely to follow these numbers than their personal preference.  You have to design for your audience, there is no secret group of people trying to destroy the game by adding in non-essential features.

Thank you for admitting your ignorance, that is rather big of you. Its called marketing. Very rarely are those sorts of decisions actually made from data, but based on gut. Those shooters I was referring to had multiplayer added because "all shooters much have multiplayer" even though it was not really used and felt tacked on. Many of the big wigs do not know how to listen to their development staff. So when things like fpv get cut and the fans throw a massive bitchfest over it they overreact and put it in. You can see the same thing with raids. I am pissed about that and will likely not be picking up the title because of it. The piss poor "raiding" model they have talked about will not cut it for me. If I do buy the title it will likely to one and done it much like I did Gw2, as zergs are boring. Many of the things that had me interested to begin with they have appeared to have went back on thanks to "true Tes fans" outcry. That saddens me greatly.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/30/13 11:10:18 PM#138
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by sapphen

Personally, I would like WoW better if they didn't go casual BUT I think by moving to casual, they became big.  There is so much in WoW that they can cater to casual players, hardcore arena PvP'rs, ranked battleground PvP'rs, and hardcore raiders (although I miss the 40 man runs, it seemed a lot more hardcore to me).

So that's a fair trade off in your mind? Turning a game that was already funky and cartoonish to begin with into a parody of itself because that provides more choice and attracts more people? WOW is just a lobby now where people go off in their own separate (mostly solo) directions to do the tiny little chunk of it that they like. Sounds like you're saying that's the way to do MMOs. By that logic Dancing with the Stars should be the model for future TV series.

To me there's a difference between quality and popularity. The Wire is quality. Dancing with the Stars is popular. The Secret World is quality. WOW is popular.

"Freedom of Choice" at all costs is a piss poor way to develop an MMO...unless of course, all you care about is the $$. Then popular and "something for everyone" is most definitely the way to go.

Vision, focus and artistic integrity is how you get quality. Pandering to the masses is how you get popularity.

Quaility and popularity are not polar opposites, great designers will design with both in mind.
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

 
OP  3/30/13 11:13:09 PM#139
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by sapphen

Personally, I would like WoW better if they didn't go casual BUT I think by moving to casual, they became big.  There is so much in WoW that they can cater to casual players, hardcore arena PvP'rs, ranked battleground PvP'rs, and hardcore raiders (although I miss the 40 man runs, it seemed a lot more hardcore to me).

So that's a fair trade off in your mind? Turning a game that was already funky and cartoonish to begin with into a parody of itself because that provides more choice and attracts more people? WOW is just a lobby now where people go off in their own separate (mostly solo) directions to do the tiny little chunk of it that they like. Sounds like you're saying that's the way to do MMOs. By that logic Dancing with the Stars should be the model for future TV series.

To me there's a difference between quality and popularity. The Wire is quality. Dancing with the Stars is popular. The Secret World is quality. WOW is popular.

"Freedom of Choice" at all costs is a piss poor way to develop an MMO...unless of course, all you care about is the $$. Then popular and "something for everyone" is most definitely the way to go.

Vision, focus and artistic integrity is how you get quality. Pandering to the masses is how you get popularity.

Quaility and popularity are not polar opposites, great designers will design with both in mind.

 Sometimes you get both, yes. But that only happens when they focused on the quality not the other way around.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/30/13 11:14:40 PM#140
Originally posted by Iselin

So that's a fair trade off in your mind? Turning a game that was already funky and cartoonish to begin with into a parody of itself because that provides more choice and attracts more people? WOW is just a lobby now where people go off in their own separate (mostly solo or quick little PUGs with starangers) directions to do the tiny little chunk of it that they like. Sounds like you're saying that's the way to do MMOs. By that logic Dancing with the Stars should be the model for future TV series.

To me there's a difference between quality and popularity. The Wire is quality. Dancing with the Stars is popular. The Secret World is quality. WOW is popular.

"Freedom of Choice" at all costs is a piss poor way to develop an MMO...unless of course, all you care about is the $$. Then popular and "something for everyone" is most definitely the way to go.

Vision, focus and artistic integrity is how you get quality. Pandering to the masses is how you get popularity.

 

I am sorry, but did you just say that the Tthe Secret World is good?

wow....I mean, wow!

I lost my wallet once, and that was a wiser expenditure than when I bought TSW.

 

Sales are the best way to determine whether a game is good or not.  Anything else is just subjective opinions.

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