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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Will the real ESO please stand-up?

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252 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16988

3/29/13 3:33:44 PM#21
Originally posted by aesperus
 

I think the problem w/ this particular portion of group #1, is that they're argument doesn't hold up here. They're marching under the banner of 'TESO should be true to Elder Scrolls games!', and at the same time using that logic to criticisize the game for not having raiding.

Whoa, stop it right there.

Let's not start spreading gossip and lies (when I know you really aren't "lying"). I know It's the interwebz but we can at least aim for a little higher here. A little.

You are seeing "some players" arguing for raiding and conveniently conflating them with those who are advocating for a more pure elder scrolls experience.

I would be dollars to donuts that those who are arguing for Raiding are more on the "we're mmo players and we don't really care as long as it's a good game" camp.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3716

 
OP  3/29/13 4:00:37 PM#22
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by pokrak

I will play it for pvp as many others and if they break it at some point they will loose half of their population...

Lets play the numbers game (unable to verify sales of TES games, just numbers found from a few sources, might be wrong but you get the point)...

DAOC subscribers/players roughly 250,000.

TES subscribers/players over 7 million (Oblivion 3mil and Skyrim 4mil).

If you were making a game to make a profit who would you want to piss off less?

Maybe Zmax knew the numbers--the real ones, not the ones you're pulling out of...somehere--and decided to go with their original plan anyway? Just a guess...

the DAoC figure is the peak subscriber numbers, what the overall number of accounts was over the lifetime of the game, i wouldnt like to estimate, but its obviously a much lower figure than that of the TES games, though i wouldnt go so far as to say 7 million as people who bought Skyrim most likely bought Oblivion and probably Morrowind too, but i do think its fair to say that TES fans do number in the millions rather than just a couple of hundred thousand. In the end, Zenimax will have to choose which demographic they want to appeal to, although catering to the DAoC crowd and the TES crowd shouldnt be mutually exclusive, there is no real reason why a racial faction lock should be in place, it doesnt fit in with the TES lore, except with some exceptionally obscure shoehorning that isnt really in keeping with TES anyway, thats not to say that a game can't be made in the TES vein with 3 factions, just that basing it on racial lock-ins was a bit of a weird move, basing the 3 factions on idealogical motives would have been far better, and more in keeping with TES, and moreover would have given players the option of choosing, which is also in keeping with the spirit of TES.

The numbers argument has a fatal flaw you know: Zenimax knows all of this, probably to the penny... and yet they chose the model they chose.

We're not talking about which they should choose based on sound accounting principles... they already chose.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 4:11:32 PM#23
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by pokrak

I will play it for pvp as many others and if they break it at some point they will loose half of their population...

Lets play the numbers game (unable to verify sales of TES games, just numbers found from a few sources, might be wrong but you get the point)...

DAOC subscribers/players roughly 250,000.

TES subscribers/players over 7 million (Oblivion 3mil and Skyrim 4mil).

If you were making a game to make a profit who would you want to piss off less?

Maybe Zmax knew the numbers--the real ones, not the ones you're pulling out of...somehere--and decided to go with their original plan anyway? Just a guess...

the DAoC figure is the peak subscriber numbers, what the overall number of accounts was over the lifetime of the game, i wouldnt like to estimate, but its obviously a much lower figure than that of the TES games, though i wouldnt go so far as to say 7 million as people who bought Skyrim most likely bought Oblivion and probably Morrowind too, but i do think its fair to say that TES fans do number in the millions rather than just a couple of hundred thousand. In the end, Zenimax will have to choose which demographic they want to appeal to, although catering to the DAoC crowd and the TES crowd shouldnt be mutually exclusive, there is no real reason why a racial faction lock should be in place, it doesnt fit in with the TES lore, except with some exceptionally obscure shoehorning that isnt really in keeping with TES anyway, thats not to say that a game can't be made in the TES vein with 3 factions, just that basing it on racial lock-ins was a bit of a weird move, basing the 3 factions on idealogical motives would have been far better, and more in keeping with TES, and moreover would have given players the option of choosing, which is also in keeping with the spirit of TES.

Well, didn't mark jacobs say that DAoC was about 250k (on this site no less)  and we can see from here that at least Skyrim was in the millions...

Skyrim Sales Statistics Data
Skyrim units sold in the first 48 hours 3.5 million
Skyrim units sold in the first week release 7 million
Skyrim sales in the first week of release $450 million
Total Skyrim units sold 10 million
Total Skyrim sales $620 million
Average user review rating 92 / 100
Highest number of concurrent players on Steam 280,000

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

 
Having said that, I don't believe Zenimax went into this endeavor without knowing this info therefore they probably based some of their decision on other factors.

Looks like majority of the fans are on consoles also and they have to think about that too.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2914

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

3/29/13 4:21:07 PM#24


Originally posted by Phry
In the end, Zenimax will have to choose which demographic they want to appeal to, although catering to the DAoC crowd and the TES crowd shouldnt be mutually exclusive, there is no real reason why a racial faction lock should be in place, it doesnt fit in with the TES lore, except with some exceptionally obscure shoehorning that isnt really in keeping with TES anyway, thats not to say that a game can't be made in the TES vein with 3 factions, just that basing it on racial lock-ins was a bit of a weird move, basing the 3 factions on idealogical motives would have been far better, and more in keeping with TES, and moreover would have given players the option of choosing, which is also in keeping with the spirit of TES.

That's my personal view. Have 3 factions. Do NOT make them race locked. Let them be a choice, as is more like the TES way. I have zero interest in AvAvA. None. Nadda. Zilch. With a choice, I could ignore AvAvA and play on. Since I am forced into it, I have very little desire to even play the game.

I am happy the DAoC fans have a new game. I really am. And the fans of both DAoC and TES are in hog haven!

I am butthurt that it happened in a game I would have thought would be near my dream game setting/IP.

"Here's a sweet apple pie! I made it based with a ground up pickeld beets and vinegar crust, though. Hopefully I put in enough sugar to please you."

No matter how I eat this pie, I will taste the beet and vinegar crust. Vinegar has a way of seeping into everything it comes close to.

The AvAvA aspect of TES:O seeps into every aspect of the game. Given a choice in which side to follow, I could deal with it. Now, I cannot talk to, or even interact with in a non-PvP way, any player other than my own faction. The stories will more than likely be heavily influenced by the ongoing war. Magical barriers have appeared throughout Tamriel that have never been there before. There is no trade between factions. Guilds (if present) will be faction locked where they were once Tamriel wide. Thieves, Assassins, and Doctors will know boundaries. Bards don't get to go anywhere their feet take them.

Again, I am truly happy for the DAoC gamers. It looks like they may have a great game here. I wish them all the happiness they can have with it :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 4:29:06 PM#25
what the hell was Bethesda thinking in choosing devs of a RvR game to be trusted with their best IP and its lore/background plus majority of its fans.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16988

3/29/13 4:31:16 PM#26
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by Sovrath
 

Well, didn't mark jacobs say that DAoC was about 250k (on this site no less)  and we can see from here that at least Skyrim was in the millions...

Skyrim Sales Statistics Data
Skyrim units sold in the first 48 hours 3.5 million
Skyrim units sold in the first week release 7 million
Skyrim sales in the first week of release $450 million
Total Skyrim units sold 10 million
Total Skyrim sales $620 million
Average user review rating 92 / 100
Highest number of concurrent players on Steam 280,000

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

 
Having said that, I don't believe Zenimax went into this endeavor without knowing this info therefore they probably based some of their decision on other factors.

Looks like majority of the fans are on consoles also and they have to think about that too.

yeah, so when Bethesda says that the majority of their customers are console based, they ain't kidding.

hmmm I wonder if they are working on that? Well, they have not made that indicatioin as they have clearly stated windows and mac. still...

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/29/13 4:34:53 PM#27

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

  shalissar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/10
Posts: 152

3/29/13 4:37:38 PM#28
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Phry
In the end, Zenimax will have to choose which demographic they want to appeal to, although catering to the DAoC crowd and the TES crowd shouldnt be mutually exclusive, there is no real reason why a racial faction lock should be in place, it doesnt fit in with the TES lore, except with some exceptionally obscure shoehorning that isnt really in keeping with TES anyway, thats not to say that a game can't be made in the TES vein with 3 factions, just that basing it on racial lock-ins was a bit of a weird move, basing the 3 factions on idealogical motives would have been far better, and more in keeping with TES, and moreover would have given players the option of choosing, which is also in keeping with the spirit of TES.


That's my personal view. Have 3 factions. Do NOT make them race locked. Let them be a choice, as is more like the TES way. I have zero interest in AvAvA. None. Nadda. Zilch. With a choice, I could ignore AvAvA and play on. Since I am forced into it, I have very little desire to even play the game.

 

 

I'm totally down with the AvAvA but I also agree. There's an RP group that I'm rather fond of, but it seems like they're bent on going for the pseudo-vikings. My husband and I are bent on playing in the Daggerfall covenant. Not only can we not join them, I'm worried that all those interesting rp interactions from a racial point of view might be totally impossible with this race faction tie.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 4:38:58 PM#29
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

  User Deleted
3/29/13 4:40:16 PM#30

DAOC + GW2 + TES lore = ESO

 

I'm not even bashing the design, looks like it could be a good game.

 

I think all we're seeing now is smoke and mirrors to hide this design, with intent on making the game look more favorable to TES fans.

 

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/29/13 4:49:59 PM#31
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 4:54:01 PM#32
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

Warhammer was also RvR focused and made by devs of daoc.  And it seems like Cyrodil is the same thing as any of the RvR maps in warhammer.  But it was understandable why warhammer was like that because its warhammer.  ES is totaly different type of series.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 4:58:09 PM#33
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by Sovrath
 

Well, didn't mark jacobs say that DAoC was about 250k (on this site no less)  and we can see from here that at least Skyrim was in the millions...

Skyrim Sales Statistics Data
Skyrim units sold in the first 48 hours 3.5 million
Skyrim units sold in the first week release 7 million
Skyrim sales in the first week of release $450 million
Total Skyrim units sold 10 million
Total Skyrim sales $620 million
Average user review rating 92 / 100
Highest number of concurrent players on Steam 280,000

http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

 
Having said that, I don't believe Zenimax went into this endeavor without knowing this info therefore they probably based some of their decision on other factors.

Looks like majority of the fans are on consoles also and they have to think about that too.

yeah, so when Bethesda says that the majority of their customers are console based, they ain't kidding.

hmmm I wonder if they are working on that? Well, they have not made that indicatioin as they have clearly stated windows and mac. still...

I would not be surprised if it comes out on consoles later on as someone stated that one of the devs said that the controls can be used with gamepad using other software such as xpadder and from seeing the gameplay video from pax i can see why the gamepad can be used.  Hell I use gamepad on GW2 and neverwinter beta.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/29/13 5:00:54 PM#34
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

Warhammer was also RvR focused and made by devs of daoc.  And it seems like Cyrodil is the same thing as any of the RvR maps in warhammer.  But it was understandable why warhammer was like that because its warhammer.  ES is totaly different type of series.

Well, first off, Matt Firor (the only Mythic dev working on this title) didn't work on Warhammer. He was nowhere near that project. Second, Warhammer is so vastly different from what's been announced as being implemented for ESO that, literally, the only thing similar is that players kill other players.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 5:06:18 PM#35
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

Warhammer was also RvR focused and made by devs of daoc.  And it seems like Cyrodil is the same thing as any of the RvR maps in warhammer.  But it was understandable why warhammer was like that because its warhammer.  ES is totaly different type of series.

Well, first off, Matt Firor (the only Mythic dev working on this title) didn't work on Warhammer. He was nowhere near that project. Second, Warhammer is so vastly different from what's been announced as being implemented for ESO that, literally, the only thing similar is that players kill other players.

Still bethesda shouldnt have handed their IP to these devs that clearly is just using it as an excuse to make daoc 2 with ES skin. Bethesda just analy screwed their fanbase with this.

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 2943

3/29/13 5:10:13 PM#36
I'm not sure I completely understand the OP, so I apologize in advance. I am currently playing Skyrim and I guess after reading the OP I almost feel like Im somewhere in the middle between the two. I could care less about the deep lore, but I like the Skyrim Universe, races, style of Play, exploring most anywhere, NPCs that don't just stand around...but at the same time I realize its an MMO with thousands of others and it can't be exactly the same, so as long as it has a social aspect and the NPCs aren't completely static, and I can explore to my hearts content without being forced from one city to another (though I realize there are alliance restrictions)...I'll be happy. I just want something that isn't completely linear and I can play solo or group and they both feel satisfying....and if I want to dig deeper, like read lore, its there, but it doesn't have to be exactly to the Elder Scrolls Series. 

There Is Always Hope!

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/29/13 5:28:35 PM#37
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

Warhammer was also RvR focused and made by devs of daoc.  And it seems like Cyrodil is the same thing as any of the RvR maps in warhammer.  But it was understandable why warhammer was like that because its warhammer.  ES is totaly different type of series.

Well, first off, Matt Firor (the only Mythic dev working on this title) didn't work on Warhammer. He was nowhere near that project. Second, Warhammer is so vastly different from what's been announced as being implemented for ESO that, literally, the only thing similar is that players kill other players.

Still bethesda shouldnt have handed their IP to these devs that clearly is just using it as an excuse to make daoc 2 with ES skin. Bethesda just analy screwed their fanbase with this.

Oh. The flawless counter argument of "Yeah ,but still...". I tip my hat, and shall concede to you, good sir. But before I exit this debate, I'll share an anecdote with you. It's a tale of ice-cream, and a petulant boy who would only eat vanilla:

This poor, misguided youth wouldn't touch chocolate in any form; he detested the stuff. So imagine his utter horror when, one fine summer's day, his father took him to the ice-cream parlor and bought him a vanilla cone with (gasp) chocolate syrup. Oh, how the boy cried and lambasted his father for this unacceptable betrayal. Chocolate!? On vanilla!? Madness!!

The boy refused to eat. In protest, he held his cone and pointed out all of it's flaws to his father for most of the walk home. What would have been an amazing ice-cream cone had been ruined by his father's careless choices. Couldn't he see that he was ruining something special?

Then it happened. Mid-stride, the boys toe found a crack in the cement, and down he began to topple. His father reached for his hand to grab him, and, in so doing, unintentionally forced the chocolate covered vanilla ice-cream into the boys mouth. At first, terror gripped the child. He actually had the vile concoction in his mouth! He prepared to spit, but hesitated. Then something marvelous happened.

Working the flavors back and forth in his mouth, he realized that the chocolate actually enhanced the vanilla. Unbelievable!, thought the boy. This is actually... better than vanilla by itself! And the rest of the walk home he told his smiling father all about how much he enjoyed vanilla ice-cream, with chocolate syrup on top.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3716

 
OP  3/29/13 5:39:06 PM#38
Originally posted by keithian
I'm not sure I completely understand the OP, so I apologize in advance. I am currently playing Skyrim and I guess after reading the OP I almost feel like Im somewhere in the middle between the two. I could care less about the deep lore, but I like the Skyrim Universe, races, style of Play, exploring most anywhere, NPCs that don't just stand around...but at the same time I realize its an MMO with thousands of others and it can't be exactly the same, so as long as it has a social aspect and the NPCs aren't completely static, and I can explore to my hearts content without being forced from one city to another (though I realize there are alliance restrictions)...I'll be happy. I just want something that isn't completely linear and I can play solo or group and they both feel satisfying....and if I want to dig deeper, like read lore, its there, but it doesn't have to be exactly to the Elder Scrolls Series. 

I think you will be pleased.

My original post is based on the short history of this forum and its wars...you had to be there

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3716

 
OP  3/29/13 5:44:22 PM#39
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

That's very good Rygard. That's how I feel.

I freely admit that they could have gone the other way and developed a mostly PvE MMO that would have been very close to Skyrim. I wouldn't have been as excited if they'd chosen that route, but I would have played it anyway...at least for a while.

But I have very little respect for developers who back away from their vision to maximize sales. They chose a way to do it. Now they should stick to their vision.

Someone else said something about smoke and mirrors to placate the TES fans... unfortunately it does look that way at the moment.

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3895

3/29/13 5:49:39 PM#40
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rygard49

For Group 1, ESO is a familiar dish being cooked with a different recipe. Though they desperately want to eat, they fear how it will taste, and therefore refuse it before they've even taken a bite. They're missing the chance to possibly expand the list of flavors that they enjoy, and their arguments on these forums are the equivalents of screaming at the dinner table until daddy fixes it.

I don't respect any argument that attempts to force a game designer to change their vision for how a game should be. Likewise, I don't respect a game designer that compromizes on their vision in order to appease the complaints of people who haven't experienced the finished work.

People in group 1 prolly already tasted it with other games like warhammer or daoc and didnt enjoy it. 

Wait... Warhammer? Wtf? That's not even close to the system under scrutiny in this game. Get out of here if you're going to use that game as an example why ESO needs to change. You might as well say you hated STO, therefore ESO is going to suck.

Warhammer was also RvR focused and made by devs of daoc.  And it seems like Cyrodil is the same thing as any of the RvR maps in warhammer.  But it was understandable why warhammer was like that because its warhammer.  ES is totaly different type of series.

Well, first off, Matt Firor (the only Mythic dev working on this title) didn't work on Warhammer. He was nowhere near that project. Second, Warhammer is so vastly different from what's been announced as being implemented for ESO that, literally, the only thing similar is that players kill other players.

Still bethesda shouldnt have handed their IP to these devs that clearly is just using it as an excuse to make daoc 2 with ES skin. Bethesda just analy screwed their fanbase with this.

Oh. The flawless counter argument of "Yeah ,but still...". I tip my hat, and shall concede to you, good sir. But before I exit this debate, I'll share an anecdote with you. It's a tale of ice-cream, and a petulant boy who would only eat vanilla:

This poor, misguided youth wouldn't touch chocolate in any form; he detested the stuff. So imagine his utter horror when, one fine summer's day, his father took him to the ice-cream parlor and bought him a vanilla cone with (gasp) chocolate syrup. Oh, how the boy cried and lambasted his father for this unacceptable betrayal. Chocolate!? On vanilla!? Madness!!

The boy refused to eat. In protest, he held his cone and pointed out all of it's flaws to his father for most of the walk home. What would have been an amazing ice-cream cone had been ruined by his father's careless choices. Couldn't he see that he was ruining something special?

Then it happened. Mid-stride, the boys toe found a crack in the cement, and down he began to topple. His father reached for his hand to grab him, and, in so doing, unintentionally forced the chocolate covered vanilla ice-cream into the boys mouth. At first, terror gripped the child. He actually had the vile concoction in his mouth! He prepared to spit, but hesitated. Then something marvelous happened.

Working the flavors back and forth in his mouth, he realized that the chocolate actually enhanced the vanilla. Unbelievable!, thought the boy. This is actually... better than vanilla by itself! And the rest of the walk home he told his smiling father all about how much he enjoyed vanilla ice-cream, with chocolate syrup on top.

Except in this case I have tasted that flavor in other mmos that did similar systems of gameplay and I didnt enjoy it.  And I could also use the arguement of how people drink and eat snakes blood or dogs in other places in the world but I dont have to taste it to know I wont like it.  I have tasted chocolate ice cream and I dont enjoy it, I can deal with it but in my mind im thinking I would enjoy vanilla a lot more.  guess what not everyone is that boy because everyone has different taste buds and in this case opinions.  Just because you like something doesnt mean others will like the same thing. I tried to get my friends into mmorpgs and they try it but they still dont enjoy it as much as single player games, some dont even want to play them at all after trying it.

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