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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/31/13 5:51:25 AM#481
Originally posted by JKwervo

Here's my thing...

 

This game sounds every bit like Guild Wars 2, minus a few things:

 

1. The Twitchy mechanics, aka using mouse clicks to attack

2. Being able to wear and use whatever armor/weapons you want. 

 

Otherwise,  nothing that really seperates it from anything, except for the IP. I played GW2, and I like the game. I Just haven't played it in 3 months. Why? I got bored. 

I have a life and GW2 is super casual, which is awesome. However, after 6 level 80s (So damn easy to hit an 80 in that game without even trying) all geared out and I got my legendary with relative EASE in the beginning, there really isn't anything else. 

The PvP still need A SHIT TON of work. WvW isn't epic at all. It's Zerg around a rosey. sPvP actually has potential, but I have yet to trully see the point. 

I enjoy games, but usually it's nice to have goals. That's what allows longevity in the game. If there isn't incentives, then you don't stay. I guess incentive is also subjective....but from my PoV, TESO doesn't present anything special. 

I think you greatly discount the Character Progression system.  The one thing GW2 got dead wrong sucks knowing my Warrior Main has over 400 skill points and nothing to use them on.  Hopefully they catch on to this fact and implement a great AA (Alternate Advancement) system to take advntage of those skill points.  Unlike other games (say TSW) which offered non-gear character progression ESO's wont take a few weeks to achieve all the extra skills.  Add onto this the fact they have plans to add additional skill line with Thieves guild and Bard's Guild (among others) post launch then it will already have GW2 beat.

 

You also have to realize they are using a vertical (gear) progression ontop of the horizontal (character) progression which is another thing GW2 did wrong (IMO). 

 

Then ontop of this you have the 50+ zone and 50++ zone to explore.  I also think you greatly discount the replayability of an exploration centric gameworld, one of the strng points of all Elder Scrolls games.

 

And finally you have AvA, open world dungeons, Explorable areas (shortly after launch) and an innovative discovery type crafting system that lets crafters make some of the best gear and/or upgrade/enchant the best gear you got your self a game with amazing potential.

 

Now if none of those systems float your boat, I gotta ask, WTF you looking for in a game (other then open world FFA PvP or Building/crafting structures)?

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

3/31/13 5:55:55 AM#482
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by tintilinic

1. Forced socializing is all you talk about

2. No thats not anti-social

3. Its plain English. Concepts that you have to play 10 hours/day to get anywhere, lack of almost any content hidded behind extreme idiotic grinds. One thing i love is when people say "EQ filtered all those "not worthy" to play!". Well it filtered out too well, theres was pretty much noone playing when alternatives started to pop up. Just as any hardcore MMO out there.

4. WoW is still strong because it changed over the years, not because its same vanilla WoW

5. They all copied WoW model but it never worked for anything besides WoW, its pretty basic: those who want WoW play WoW

6. If PvP is niche, raiding (hardcore raiding) is ultra niche, its costly to make for almost no return, this is not 2000 when that was a novelty, its 2013 and most people now see that devs only were fooling around with them, those games werent designed for fun but for milking 15/month in very transparent way.

7. Great, it will be fun to watch, i suggest you start your own project then and get AAA funding. Good luck!

 

 

5.

Tons and Tons of players have quit WoW, or would easily quit wow give a real alternative.  None exist on the market atm.  No game has truly copied WoW's model for success. Including start off with a difficult game whilst adding new raid content over time, and making the game more openly avaialble to casual gamers.

 

You can't be freaking serious can you?  Can you say EVERY single Triple-A MMO released in the last 7 years has been an almsot identical WoW clone?

 

LOL I laugh at your assessment!

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/31/13 7:05:25 AM#483
Originally posted by azzamasi

5.

Tons and Tons of players have quit WoW, or would easily quit wow give a real alternative.  None exist on the market atm.  No game has truly copied WoW's model for success. Including start off with a difficult game whilst adding new raid content over time, and making the game more openly avaialble to casual gamers.

 

You can't be freaking serious can you?  Can you say EVERY single Triple-A MMO released in the last 7 years has been an almsot identical WoW clone?

 

LOL I laugh at your assessment!

No, they have been failed WoW clones.  They are all faceroll easy from the very start, and many have no end game to speak of.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3581

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/31/13 9:06:51 AM#484
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by elohssa

Buffing random peple =/= socializing at any level

Crafting is solo =/= socializing at any level

Helping random peple with solo content =/= socializing at any level

Random chat in general to random people  is barely socializing.  This is little better than buying things on the AH.  Thats how low the bar you just set is.  If this is the only socializing you experience in an mmo, then you are a loner.

 

How in the heck is fast paced combat stopping socilizaing?  You can always stop between mobs and chat if you want. Nothing is stopping that.  Unless you want to stop and chat in the middle of a fight, in which case you are asking them to make the game so stupidly easy that half the people can chat instead of play the game.

 

If this is your vision of an MMO, then its honestly quite pathetic, and a sure fired recipe for failure.

 

 

Chat between mobs?? You are new to modern MMO's aren't you? ^^  No time to stop! Go! Go! Go!... ^^ 

The social aspect has to my experience been rather limited for years now.  But thats ok, I'm not in these games for social interactions. Thats what my family and RL friends are for.  I especially dislike vent, because so few people have any concept of communications discipline.  Nor much discipline in general, for that matter.

 

New to modern MMOs?  If they are modern, then by definition everyone is new to them.... So yah, what does this mean?

 

What is it you guys want?  A fight so easy you can have tea and crumpets in the middle, as you talk about the weather in chat?  Maybe pretend you are troll, and do some lame ass role playing?

 

No social spects in recent mmos.  Well of course there isn't, you are a casual, and you play casual mmos.  Casual mmos don't require co-op as they are faceroll easy, thus you aren't required to actually socialize with other players.  Challenging encounters require you to talk to other players.

 

Communication discipline?!  What i s that?  If you get in vent with douchebags, then you leave.  Its that simple.  FInd a new mature guild. 

see, thats where you fail completely: you cannot discern what is "social" and what is "anti-social"

theres no such thing as "forced socializing". Theres already a term for that: anti-social. Its the most asburd concept people like you bring up all the time.

Bringing old concepts back to life will not happen. Why? because those died for a reason.

You know why all WoW clones fail? They bring nothing new in the core to the table. Staleness kills them, not absence of dead concepts (those would actually only speed up the process)

Theres no AAA MMO that will cater to you. The sooner you make peace with that, the sooner your games of choice will be more in line with your needs.

I thought all the WoWclones failed and the reason I didn't play them longer than a month was because they tried to clone WoW, but didn't deliver even half of it. I mean, all have focused on stealing the WoW-casuals (who don't have a need to quit it) instead of the tens of millions who used to play wow for years and are looking for a similar game, which is quite a large percent in those million account you see at every wowclone release. But I guess you are the expert.

Most of the people who jump on these wowclones in every few months don't want to play mmorpg's that only offer barely a month of gameplay total, which is what they always end up getting from those pro AAA's in the last 5 years. And that's what they will probably end up getting from ESO.

Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by kidas52
So you want another purely PvP focused game to last 6 months and fail again??  How does other people being able to raid and not ever PvPing in their entire game life affect you?

I'd rather a fun game that only lasts 6 months, than a dull-as-snot game that lasts 10 years.

And I'd like to believe raiding content doesn't have negative affects on the rest of the game, but precedent hasn't been kind to that notion. 

Yah, thats why most people are against raiding, but its so ironic that "raiders" are so selfish and only thing i see from them is "I" "me", only concerned about themselves and nobody else that play the game or rest of the game.

Raiding is crucial for making new content for you too...  If its not in the game, it can't last.   You won't get new content, if they dont get money. 

 

The casuals have ruined every single potential MMO since WoW.   You make up the masses, and the devs cater to you and it always ruins the game.  You end up with some easy mickey mouse wow knockoff that isn't even worth more than a couple months of your time. 

Oh, thats the whole reason why ultra hardcore MMOs are doing so good. I mean all top MMOs are nothing but ultra hardcore.

Give us a break :)

There are games that cater to your needs. Those are ultra niche games. You know why are those ultra niche? Because thats how many people want to play them.

There aren't any hardcore mmorpg's on the market that aren't 10+ years old titles and which aren't below the AAA standards (eve is the only one and that one is doing damn well, but I wouldn't really even call eve hardcore, it's only hardcore on the time requirement, nothing else). Not because there isn't a market for them, but because publishers don't want to take risks with their millions of dollars when they can simply milk the average player crowd, rememer that if you make a hardcore game for only hardcore players and you make it unappealing to the hardcore, then who the hell is going to buy your product, most of the failure projects just attempt to appeal to everyone, but fail to do so resulting them to appeal to nobody - i mean a beef,chocolate,majonaise,milk,cherry,vodka mixed coctail is just dung. If a quality hardcore mmorpg with permadeath would come out that would actually deliver, it could be as large as WoW without any doubt, because there are hundreds of millions of people out there already who have played or would play mmorpg's, but there just isn't enough choice. Like for instance, mmorpg is my favourite game and WoW was my favourite mmorpg, but I would rather play no mmorpg's at all for the next 20 years than play something that's under my standards or requirements. I won't ever even set my foot in the trashbin that it is now.

Like WoW for instance changes its entire wow playerbase with pretty much each expansion with a new one. There is a market for those ~10 million people (random number) who quit wow every 2 years, but most of that market won't want to play any games again that meet the same standards as the wow from which they quit.

 

You know, let me make you an example. When Camelot Unchained will come out, let me tell you. It will have about 2-4 million people buying it at the release. Most of them will be players who loved DaoC or just couldn't play it at the time, but loved the gameplay and concept. And you know what? If the game won't deliver as they did with DaoC or will just anyhow make a shit product, people will stop playing it. Easy as that. And the game will be marked as failure. Does that mean that there is no market anymore for DaoC players? NO. IT MEANS THAT THE GAME WAS JUST CRAP.

 

When I played PC games at 90s, I don't know how many titles there were total, but I sure know that about on average (I pirated ofc) I could play pretty much 5 new releases every day for like 6 years straight (this ofc included all the pre90s games). About 80-90% of those games were just garbage. They might have had good production value, but they were just bad. Now these days we have like 10-100x less releases (random value) and you know what? The percent of crap games still is exactly the same as it was 10-20 years ago.

 

You are quite right about one thing. Theres no mixing of hardcore and casuals. Either you make game for one or the other, theres no middle ground.

And since there are not enough hardcores to support a AAA MMO. Pretty simple. EvE didnt start out as an AAA MMO, it started out as indie project. Do you know how many played EvE at start?

A relative handful of people. EVE is one of the few exceptions to the steady decline rule, that plagues most MMO's. I was in the game for almost six years. I watched as CCP (kicking and screaming) was forced to evolve Concord into what it is today, and also change the high sec ROE.

Why? Self interest (to protect their business model).  It turns out that there are many more CareBears, than PvP types, and their money is green... ^^  Without the CareBear population, EVE would not be *nearly* as popular, which has wide spread implications for what resources CCP has to apply to their beloved PvP.

I know the PvP types don't want to hear that, but thats the hard cold reality of the current market demographics.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 9:39:38 AM#485
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by tintilinic

1. Forced socializing is all you talk about

2. No thats not anti-social

3. Its plain English. Concepts that you have to play 10 hours/day to get anywhere, lack of almost any content hidded behind extreme idiotic grinds. One thing i love is when people say "EQ filtered all those "not worthy" to play!". Well it filtered out too well, theres was pretty much noone playing when alternatives started to pop up. Just as any hardcore MMO out there.

4. WoW is still strong because it changed over the years, not because its same vanilla WoW

5. They all copied WoW model but it never worked for anything besides WoW, its pretty basic: those who want WoW play WoW

6. If PvP is niche, raiding (hardcore raiding) is ultra niche, its costly to make for almost no return, this is not 2000 when that was a novelty, its 2013 and most people now see that devs only were fooling around with them, those games werent designed for fun but for milking 15/month in very transparent way.

7. Great, it will be fun to watch, i suggest you start your own project then and get AAA funding. Good luck!

 

 

5.

Tons and Tons of players have quit WoW, or would easily quit wow give a real alternative.  None exist on the market atm.  No game has truly copied WoW's model for success. Including start off with a difficult game whilst adding new raid content over time, and making the game more openly avaialble to casual gamers.

 

You can't be freaking serious can you?  Can you say EVERY single Triple-A MMO released in the last 7 years has been an almsot identical WoW clone?

 

LOL I laugh at your assessment!

Pretty much.

LotRO, AoC, Rift, Tera's actual gameplay, WAR's PvE, SWTOR, pretty much all WoW clones.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

3/31/13 9:45:35 AM#486
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Pretty much.

LotRO, AoC, Rift, Tera's actual gameplay, WAR's PvE, SWTOR, pretty much all WoW clones.

 

failed wow clones you mean.  at least for games 10 years newer than wow they are complete FAILS

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3719

3/31/13 10:28:28 AM#487
The fact is wow makes millions because it serves a now unique market - the wow player demographic. Wow players are dedicated to wow so nothing is going to beat wow, I suspect blizzard may well be positioning Titan do it also does not compete. Hardcore raiding is niche, expensive, and absolutely nessassry for wow to exist- the alternative is horizontal progression or scaling difficulty fights which are ofc inherently more social. Wow is trapped in the past, but millions love that trap so you can't knock it. Eventually wow will die as people tire and the game continues to stagnate - and that's when more opportunities for more social games to make money will emerge,

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3719

3/31/13 10:31:47 AM#488
The funny thing is when wow dies (I suggest in 10 years). What the hell are those players going to think looking back, they spent 17 years in 1 game at the cost of all other game experiences. I predict real life psychological problems,mark my words.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO

  User Deleted
3/31/13 10:56:46 AM#489
Originally posted by Wraithone

A relative handful of people. EVE is one of the few exceptions to the steady decline rule, that plagues most MMO's. I was in the game for almost six years. I watched as CCP (kicking and screaming) was forced to evolve Concord into what it is today, and also change the high sec ROE.

Why? Self interest (to protect their business model).  It turns out that there are many more CareBears, than PvP types, and their money is green... ^^  Without the CareBear population, EVE would not be *nearly* as popular, which has wide spread implications for what resources CCP has to apply to their beloved PvP.

I know the PvP types don't want to hear that, but thats the hard cold reality of the current market demographics.

exactly.

Thats what kept WoW and EvE on top - identifiying and reacting (adapting) to conditions on the market. To be blunt - "casualizing and dumbifiying" their games for years.

One thing i laught at is claim WoW was hard at launch. I still remember clearly why many people left L2 for WoW - it was waaaaaay easier and more casual than L2 back then (same thing happened to other "old school" MMOs too). And Blizzard confirmed that >5% of playerbase stuck with raid progression in vanilla and thats why they change it (dumb it down) from expansion to expansion. When they tried to make it harder their numbers drop rapidly.

Thats the reality of current market for AAA MMOs - casual and careberish. I cant really fathom how some people are so stuck in the past and believe otherwise.

Best exapmple is Rift, game that boasted "hardcore endgame" and delivered "hardcore endgame". How long it took them to dumb down that endgame again? Not very long, people were quitting all over because there was nothing for casual in endgame. And now its doing fine, but anywhere near WoW ballpark numbers? Nope.

  elohssa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 41

3/31/13 12:00:31 PM#490
Originally posted by Bladestrom
The funny thing is when wow dies (I suggest in 10 years). What the hell are those players going to think looking back, they spent 17 years in 1 game at the cost of all other game experiences. I predict real life psychological problems,mark my words.

You are delusional sir.

 

 

Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Wraithone

A relative handful of people. EVE is one of the few exceptions to the steady decline rule, that plagues most MMO's. I was in the game for almost six years. I watched as CCP (kicking and screaming) was forced to evolve Concord into what it is today, and also change the high sec ROE.

Why? Self interest (to protect their business model).  It turns out that there are many more CareBears, than PvP types, and their money is green... ^^  Without the CareBear population, EVE would not be *nearly* as popular, which has wide spread implications for what resources CCP has to apply to their beloved PvP.

I know the PvP types don't want to hear that, but thats the hard cold reality of the current market demographics.

exactly.

Thats what kept WoW and EvE on top - identifiying and reacting (adapting) to conditions on the market. To be blunt - "casualizing and dumbifiying" their games for years.

One thing i laught at is claim WoW was hard at launch. I still remember clearly why many people left L2 for WoW - it was waaaaaay easier and more casual than L2 back then (same thing happened to other "old school" MMOs too). And Blizzard confirmed that >5% of playerbase stuck with raid progression in vanilla and thats why they change it (dumb it down) from expansion to expansion. When they tried to make it harder their numbers drop rapidly.

Thats the reality of current market for AAA MMOs - casual and careberish. I cant really fathom how some people are so stuck in the past and believe otherwise.

Best exapmple is Rift, game that boasted "hardcore endgame" and delivered "hardcore endgame". How long it took them to dumb down that endgame again? Not very long, people were quitting all over because there was nothing for casual in endgame. And now its doing fine, but anywhere near WoW ballpark numbers? Nope.

You couldn't be any more wrong.  All the new MMOs copy the current day causla carebear wow.  Yet at the same time they don't offer new content or challenging raid content.  Thus they fail hard.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 12:24:12 PM#491
Originally posted by Manolios
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Pretty much.

LotRO, AoC, Rift, Tera's actual gameplay, WAR's PvE, SWTOR, pretty much all WoW clones.

 

failed wow clones you mean.  at least for games 10 years newer than wow they are complete FAILS

No, they capture the essence of WoW pretty well. They even improve it in many areas. They successfully clone WoW.

 

They do not clone its success, because you cannot. WoW is a total fluke, perfect company with the perfect timing. No matter how good an MMO is, it won't fall into that lucky position again. The mainstream only has room for one game.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 12:25:25 PM#492
Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Wraithone

A relative handful of people. EVE is one of the few exceptions to the steady decline rule, that plagues most MMO's. I was in the game for almost six years. I watched as CCP (kicking and screaming) was forced to evolve Concord into what it is today, and also change the high sec ROE.

Why? Self interest (to protect their business model).  It turns out that there are many more CareBears, than PvP types, and their money is green... ^^  Without the CareBear population, EVE would not be *nearly* as popular, which has wide spread implications for what resources CCP has to apply to their beloved PvP.

I know the PvP types don't want to hear that, but thats the hard cold reality of the current market demographics.

exactly.

Thats what kept WoW and EvE on top - identifiying and reacting (adapting) to conditions on the market. To be blunt - "casualizing and dumbifiying" their games for years.

One thing i laught at is claim WoW was hard at launch. I still remember clearly why many people left L2 for WoW - it was waaaaaay easier and more casual than L2 back then (same thing happened to other "old school" MMOs too).

This. I'm shocked at how many delusional people there are that are somehow under the impression that WoW was ever hard. IT was the most casual game on the market when it launched, and that hasn't changed.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

3/31/13 12:26:01 PM#493

You couldn't be any more wrong.  All the new MMOs copy the current day causla carebear wow.  Yet at the same time they don't offer new content or challenging raid content.  Thus they fail hard.

WoW never offered challenging raids, yet it is doing fine.

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

3/31/13 12:38:24 PM#494
Originally posted by Bladestrom
The funny thing is when wow dies (I suggest in 10 years). What the hell are those players going to think looking back, they spent 17 years in 1 game at the cost of all other game experiences. I predict real life psychological problems,mark my words.

That's like saying the guy that's had the same car and loved it for 20 years is going to have psychological problems when it finally breaks down.

 

No, they'll simply gravitate to another game.

 

Without raids I'd be amazed if they have a way of consistent growth or longevity with players.  Having no raids also means very limited mechanics.  As a developer the beauty of having 10+ people is you can make the encounters harder because you can factor in more good players to bad players.  With only 4-6 players you have much less room to make hard encounters without alienating groups, things will always be too easy for those with skill and too hard for those without.

 

I will echo what everyone has said previously...WoW has never been a challenge, the real challenge in WoW was finding 20 competant people to fill a 40 man raid so you can fill up the rest of the raid with the regular morons that show up and just faceroll encounters.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3581

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/31/13 1:03:33 PM#495
Originally posted by elohssa
Originally posted by Bladestrom
The funny thing is when wow dies (I suggest in 10 years). What the hell are those players going to think looking back, they spent 17 years in 1 game at the cost of all other game experiences. I predict real life psychological problems,mark my words.

You are delusional sir.

 

 

Originally posted by tintilinic
Originally posted by Wraithone

A relative handful of people. EVE is one of the few exceptions to the steady decline rule, that plagues most MMO's. I was in the game for almost six years. I watched as CCP (kicking and screaming) was forced to evolve Concord into what it is today, and also change the high sec ROE.

Why? Self interest (to protect their business model).  It turns out that there are many more CareBears, than PvP types, and their money is green... ^^  Without the CareBear population, EVE would not be *nearly* as popular, which has wide spread implications for what resources CCP has to apply to their beloved PvP.

I know the PvP types don't want to hear that, but thats the hard cold reality of the current market demographics.

exactly.

Thats what kept WoW and EvE on top - identifiying and reacting (adapting) to conditions on the market. To be blunt - "casualizing and dumbifiying" their games for years.

One thing i laught at is claim WoW was hard at launch. I still remember clearly why many people left L2 for WoW - it was waaaaaay easier and more casual than L2 back then (same thing happened to other "old school" MMOs too). And Blizzard confirmed that >5% of playerbase stuck with raid progression in vanilla and thats why they change it (dumb it down) from expansion to expansion. When they tried to make it harder their numbers drop rapidly.

Thats the reality of current market for AAA MMOs - casual and careberish. I cant really fathom how some people are so stuck in the past and believe otherwise.

Best exapmple is Rift, game that boasted "hardcore endgame" and delivered "hardcore endgame". How long it took them to dumb down that endgame again? Not very long, people were quitting all over because there was nothing for casual in endgame. And now its doing fine, but anywhere near WoW ballpark numbers? Nope.

You couldn't be any more wrong.  All the new MMOs copy the current day causla carebear wow.  Yet at the same time they don't offer new content or challenging raid content.  Thus they fail hard.

So, only the "hard core" players determine if a game is a success? Thats certainly an interesting perspective, but it doesn't seem to match up with the economics involved.  In game after game, after game, it has been demonstrated that Carebears well out number PvP types, let alone the "hard core" type players.

What is challenging to one player, may be frustrating to another.  The line between challenging and frustrating is a fine one. I have no problem with a challenge (I tend to enjoy them). But I have little time or patience for systems that a frustarating.

A system can be complex, without being complicated.  The creation of such systems requires experience and wisdom.

Something rather lacking in all too many people who are making the design decisions (in many cases suits, rather than Dev's).  That is just one, of many reasons why games fail.

  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

3/31/13 1:29:14 PM#496
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by JKwervo

Here's my thing...

 

This game sounds every bit like Guild Wars 2, minus a few things:

 

1. The Twitchy mechanics, aka using mouse clicks to attack

2. Being able to wear and use whatever armor/weapons you want. 

 

Otherwise,  nothing that really seperates it from anything, except for the IP. I played GW2, and I like the game. I Just haven't played it in 3 months. Why? I got bored. 

I have a life and GW2 is super casual, which is awesome. However, after 6 level 80s (So damn easy to hit an 80 in that game without even trying) all geared out and I got my legendary with relative EASE in the beginning, there really isn't anything else. 

The PvP still need A SHIT TON of work. WvW isn't epic at all. It's Zerg around a rosey. sPvP actually has potential, but I have yet to trully see the point. 

I enjoy games, but usually it's nice to have goals. That's what allows longevity in the game. If there isn't incentives, then you don't stay. I guess incentive is also subjective....but from my PoV, TESO doesn't present anything special. 

I think you greatly discount the Character Progression system.  The one thing GW2 got dead wrong sucks knowing my Warrior Main has over 400 skill points and nothing to use them on.  Hopefully they catch on to this fact and implement a great AA (Alternate Advancement) system to take advntage of those skill points.  Unlike other games (say TSW) which offered non-gear character progression ESO's wont take a few weeks to achieve all the extra skills.  Add onto this the fact they have plans to add additional skill line with Thieves guild and Bard's Guild (among others) post launch then it will already have GW2 beat.

 

You also have to realize they are using a vertical (gear) progression ontop of the horizontal (character) progression which is another thing GW2 did wrong (IMO). 

 

Then ontop of this you have the 50+ zone and 50++ zone to explore.  I also think you greatly discount the replayability of an exploration centric gameworld, one of the strng points of all Elder Scrolls games.

 

And finally you have AvA, open world dungeons, Explorable areas (shortly after launch) and an innovative discovery type crafting system that lets crafters make some of the best gear and/or upgrade/enchant the best gear you got your self a game with amazing potential.

 

Now if none of those systems float your boat, I gotta ask, WTF you looking for in a game (other then open world FFA PvP or Building/crafting structures)?

 

Forgot about the horizontal progression. I will give them that. However, I'm not interested in their little 4-5 mans. That was one of the main factors I've stopped playing GW2. The 50+ and 50++ zones don't interest me. I'd rather just play the standalones instead of a mmo if that's the case. 5 mans are not ideal, for me. Now, if that floats your boat, then good for you. But I am not the only one that feels this way about TESO. Everything content wise is basically GW2, except they added a few more spices, which is not enough IMHO.
  MortisRex

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/23/04
Posts: 367

3/31/13 2:25:01 PM#497
Originally posted by Livnthedream

I hear no raids are doing wonders for TSW. Also, inb4 "massive group events are the same as raidz!".

 

Really? You've heard that TSW has no raids? I would love to know your source, because they are a liar. I play TSW. I've done the New York raid. They introduced it last year.  Maybe you should come up with an actual game that doesn't have raiding instead of  lying about another game to prove your point.

 

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/09/04/escape-to-new-york-the-secret-worlds-first-raid/

 

There's my proof that it does exist. The only question is, are you going to man up and take responsibilty  or are you going to move the goal posts and say because it doesn't meet your arbitrary and convoluted definition of a raid, that you're still right?

  LoganKonlan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/09
Posts: 27

3/31/13 2:52:22 PM#498

Problem with raid content is that the organized elite blow through it in a month of release, then poo-poo the game for not having any content while I'm still READING the quest dialogue at level 40 of 60.

Honestly, IDC if it has raid content or not as long as there's 'stuff' to do. I don't need hand holding or quest hubs. Hell, in TES:Skyrim I've spent hours picking herbs - even though I could console and give myself all the troll fat I wanted.

Based on what I've read ESO is primarily deved around the pvp - 3 faction idea. It is first and foremost a RvR, so why would raid content be important anyway.

The OP mentioned 4man. Seems raid worthy to me. As some have said, the days of 20-40man raids (for me) are over...ugh. Wipefest and 15 minutes to get rezzed, healed, buffed...no thanks. Makes my arse pucker just thinking about it.

If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand.

  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

3/31/13 7:02:51 PM#499

I'm allergic to Raiding and to PvP in any game.

 

I might give this game a try and return to the MMOs...

 

But as life continues and progress, I am more and more critic of any MMO, and less and less argumentative, if it doesn't please me, I doesn't bother anymore, I just move to something funnier.  CoX sets many standards high...

 

I like solo...I love groups...tradeskills are interesting in my downtime, actually, if I could tradeskill on my cell, I might do it...PvP is out of the question and if I miss ANYTHING related to another aspect of the game because it is in a PvP area, I will be a goner, no 2nd chance.

 

Can this MMO be that evolved?  We will see!

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2852

3/31/13 7:08:34 PM#500
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

So can you live with a MMO that has no raids? Or will that make ESO a pit stop for you before you run off to a new MMO that you and your guildies can really enjoy?

Info comes from HERE!!!! : There are no raids, after all – "That's not Elder Scrolls," says Game Director Matt Firor – but there are four-man dungeons and three-faction open PvP with sieges in the beleaguered province of Cyrodiil.

POSTED BY, Livnthedream: Link to more info on this topic HERE!!!!

March 25th 2013 update EDIT: Any ways standard raids wont be in the game or no plan for them yet so the poll still stands but they plan on having phased events thats will support large team play but not like standard raids. We are all waiting on info to see what thats means. One quote this weekend it sounds more like we will be fighting more masses of mobs in the phased events over just a oversized boss mob. But again thats just reading into what a dev said.

 I can live without raiding so long as theres another form of progression within the game. I perfer a large game with a large amount of progression in it. Games like Anarchy Online which have thousands of items to use for any character. I do not consider a game like WoW or anything in the realms of a "WoW Clone" to be remotely close to what I'm talking about. With that said ESO unfortunately falls into this catagory  for me. It has a small leveling curve that won't take any time at all to max and there will most likely be very few items for players to obtain.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

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