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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  Grailer

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 840

3/27/13 4:08:30 PM#401

Raids arent needed for it to be fun .

 

In Rift my favourite part of the game was the 5 man dungons .  In EQ I used to enjoy the small groups as well .

 

 

In raids it feels impersonal and I feel like Im not really needed at all , and even worse there is barely any chance of reward when 1 or 2 items drop and 40 people are in raid .

  User Deleted
3/27/13 4:26:31 PM#402
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Destai
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Celestian

 


Originally posted by GreenHell
They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them.

 

You could just as easily say they are alienating the SCIFI market as well.

They have to pick what their game is about.

There are lots of games that cater to that market already, they are shooting for something else it seems.

Exactly. I find it hillarious that on the one hand posters around here hate nothing more than another WOW clone but when they explain what they want in an MMO, it's WOW in a clown suit.

Their illogic goes like this: WOW has meganumbers of subs. Meganumbers = the only measure of success. F2P = failure. This game needs to be like WOW or go F2P in 2 months.

It's not so black and white. Genres have established features - shooters have arenas, CTF, etc. Roleplaying games have skills/classes to level, dungeons, raids, and crafting. When those accepted features are not there, yes, the game is lacking. I personally don't want a WoW clone, but I expect the same amount of detail and polish that WoW delivered. I expect a combat system that is fun - not derivative. It doesn't have to be like WoW, nor GW2, but it has to be fun and it has to have feeling. 

Furthermore, I don't expect - and the publishers shouldn't - WoW numbers in every MMO. It's not going to happen. The least these developers can do for themselves is lower the barriers and let players buy/try their game. F2P is often a sign of failure, especially when a sub-par game was gated by subscriptions. 

The MMO market has two huge problems

1. The failure of developers to come up with anything original or polished

2. The failure of publishers to come up with a price model that allows entry into their game

 

MMO culture won't improve until those two issues are resolved before companies waste millions of dollars on a game no one wants.

That being said, I want ESO to succeed. I love the series. GW2 doesn't have traditional raids and is a success, but it offers substitute content and had to explain those things to players. Hopefully ESO can succeed at that too, and have a price model that makes sense.

How do you think the MMO genre established the features you choose to include in your list? Were they always established features? And why is RvR not in your list of established features?

Your post is a good example of exactly what I was saying.  No you don't want an exact replica of WOW, just the "established features" from it.

Thanks for illustrating my point.

I'm not saying it has to have the same skin. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. WoW established that interface should be easily understood, the class systems should be clean and effectual. It established grouping features. I'm not saying every MMO should have the same toolbar. I'm say it should have an interface that is intuitive and let's players play the game, rather than shuffle hotbars. I'm say the class system should have complexity through its simplicity, rather than a clusterf--k like EQ2. That's not to say every class system should be a tree or whatever have you. It should just make sense and be flexible. Guild Wars 2 has a good class system. It makes sense, it's clean, and it's fun to play with. That's my point. 

Standard features are developed based on what sells. RvR should by all right be a standard feature. Raids should be a standard. The underlying standard is giving players a means to play with each other, rather than run through zones and then walk away. So, what I want in a game is the following:

1. When I activate a skill, it activates then and there. LoTRO got this wrong big time.

2. A class system that allows for multiple play styles per character. Preferably, the ability to save said builds.

3. A clean interface that doesn't impede gameplay and doesn't require a wiki to understand. EQ2 got this wrong big time.

4. Email system

5. Buddy lists, ignore lists

6. Guild systems

7. Small and large group content

8. PVP - tournament styles and RvR

9. Crafting

10. Services - character renames, race changes, server moves, etc

11. Character progression

12. Large zones, preferably seamless

13. Smart class names - Asian games get this wrong all the time. (Flyff...)

14. No Gender locked classes

Do those make a game a WoW clone? No!

A WoW Clone is when the game cops the interface and reskins it. A WoW Clone is a game with the same class tree and same raid style. I'm open to ESO not having raids, but they have to replace it with some form of large group content. That's my point. I'm not even a raider, but I know many people want that feature in a game. And to your point, RvR is a standard that's missed all too often.

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 782

3/27/13 4:29:10 PM#403
Meh...raids are so overrated. Aren't there other interesting coop games out there?
  kidas52

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/11
Posts: 26

ED 4 Life.

3/27/13 4:34:09 PM#404
Originally posted by jazz.be
Meh...raids are so overrated. Aren't there other interesting coop games out there?

No there aren't. All the new. Games have horrible late game content because of people like you that say you want that then leave the game after 4 months giving everyone else nothing to do.

Jona ^_^

  jazz.be

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 782

3/27/13 4:40:10 PM#405
Originally posted by kidas52
Originally posted by jazz.be
Meh...raids are so overrated. Aren't there other interesting coop games out there?

No there aren't. All the new. Games have horrible late game content because of people like you that say you want that then leave the game after 4 months giving everyone else nothing to do.

Perhaps you don't need a game with good late game content? Maybe you just need some cooperation game with no leveling, no RP, no stories, no progression other than raids? With just a mailbox, an AH lobby and some crafting stations?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3880

3/27/13 4:40:54 PM#406
Originally posted by kidas52
Originally posted by jazz.be
Meh...raids are so overrated. Aren't there other interesting coop games out there?

No there aren't. All the new. Games have horrible late game content because of people like you that say you want that then leave the game after 4 months giving everyone else nothing to do.

 Damn. it`s Jazz.be`s fault. I wondered who was responsible

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1931

3/27/13 5:46:09 PM#407
I'm more concerned with bad dungeon.  And 4 man dungeon? what the heck? Where's the 5 man dungeon.  They might as well make 1 man dungeon if this keep up.
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

3/27/13 5:58:52 PM#408
Originally posted by laokoko
I'm more concerned with bad dungeon.  And 4 man dungeon? what the heck? Where's the 5 man dungeon.  They might as well make 1 man dungeon if this keep up.

As games become more and more antisocial, they will eventually be 2 man .. then 1 man dungeons.

 

At least with a 1 man raid there won't be any in-game drama.  It will all be kept out of game, with the synopsis of drama revealed on forums.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:13:22 AM#409
Originally posted by Winelen

What does one do at lvl 50? 

I think organizing a raid with people is what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG to some extent....

It brings that player to player connection, it establishes a "friendship" with specific players making the entire MMO expierence that much more enjoyable each time you log on. 

PvP :     Is this another stand still until my attack goes off game? The age old argument that its more skill than tab target is just a silly argument IMO, what is skillful about putting your cross hairs on a target and mashing a few buttons? It makes for very slow boring combat imo, if anything let me put my cross hairs on you and hit my buttons all while jumping/strafing/running.

Im struggling to find something exciting about this game, something new and innovative, something that will make me want to come back to the game over and over again......

 

This my friends is the problem with new MMORPG's. Players like this who want to play an MMO not an MMORPG.

 

I remember the days when MMORPG's were fun and challenge first and social second as an added bonus. Now it seems due to the very vocal crowd who agrees with above poster MMORPG's have become MMO's and content is demanded by players instead of created by them. It really is quite sad what's become of the genre.

  Dranean

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/10
Posts: 79

3/28/13 4:16:46 AM#410

I dont see a problem with what the OP wrote in regards to no raids etc. Guildwars 2 as an example is enjoyable (at least for a while) and they don't have the option to raid either :)

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:22:13 AM#411
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by Genadi
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by GreenHell
I didn't vote because I'd really have to see how enjoyable the rest of the game is. I just think it's odd that they wouldn't include raids of any sort. I like options and limiting those options in this day and age seems kind of foolish. They are basically alienating a large portion of the MMO demographic that could be potential revenue for them. Doesn't make much sense .

This is one of the reasons I voted no. To me this seems like a big mistake to chuck out whats been a major part of MMOing for the past 15 years. I really hope they change their minds on this and not as an after thought with a bunch of 1/2 done raids that are not tripple A quality. You know there will be a bunch of hard core MMOers who will rip the content apart and get to end game and say "There is nothing to do" and quit. A lot of MMOers live for end game content and I have no clue how this game will float with no raids. Maybe as well as GW2?

 

Hopefully the game won't attract those players. It's the 'Feedz me more content' scrubs that have ruined nearly every mmo I've enjoyed over the past 15 years. I haven't much hope for the game now anyways but if there are no raids it's a step in the right direction to creating something like a TES game which IMO must have a sandbox feel.

 

You mean like WOW?  Seeing as its by far the best MMO to date, and its earnings absolutely DWARFS anything else out there that is a pretty bold statement. 

 

Do you want to know what actually ruins new MMOs?  Pandering to hardcore entitled casuals that wan't items without effort is what ruins new MMOs.  People go through the content in a few weeks, and then get bored, and quit. 

 

 

No not like WoW, WoW from the very beginning was made for  'Feedz me more content' scrubs.

 

I think you missed my point, actually after reading your tired old WoW argument it's clear you did. What's ironic is you go on to make one of the points I did, saying... "Pandering to hardcore entitled casuals that wan't items without effort is what ruins new MMOs.  People go through the content in a few weeks, and then get bored, and quit".

 

TES is a sandbox series, end game raiding in new instances created every few months is the exact opposite. Nearly every other MMORPG is themepark and thanks to a very vocal (IMO idiotic) playerbase it looks even the king of sandboxes is going the same way. For those like myself (I know there are many) we find it very sad a series so close to our hearts and so special is being warped into something so different and so common.

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:28:09 AM#412
Originally posted by morbidlymystic

You completely just straw manned that guy.  He said nothing of the sort, in fact its likely you are 100% wrong, and the exact opposite is true.

 

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

WoW for example has all but eliminated the need tor social interaction for most of its playerbase most of the time.  Normal raids and Heroic raids are the only exception to this.

 

 

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

 

 

Edit - For the last time, don't try and turn it into an argument over WoW being successful or not. It's the tired cliche every carebear uses every time a discussion like this arises. We all know it's successful, we all know how dominant it is, the discussion has nothing to do with that.

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/28/13 4:28:21 AM#413
Originally posted by morbidlymystic

You completely just straw manned that guy.  He said nothing of the sort, in fact its likely you are 100% wrong, and the exact opposite is true.

 

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

WoW for example has all but eliminated the need tor social interaction for most of its playerbase most of the time.  Normal raids and Heroic raids are the only exception to this.

Do not forget high end arena and rbgs. Though Ganedi really should read his own quote, cause that too is dead wrong.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/28/13 4:30:32 AM#414
Originally posted by Genadi

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:32:40 AM#415
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Genadi

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

 

What on Earth are you talking about? Who said anything about easy content except for you lol? Like many before you, you have created an argument that wasn't there and isn't really up for debate to fit your narrative. Last few posts are a perfect example of why it's near impossible to have a normal discussion with players like yourself.

 

I don't want easy content or hard content, I want the tools so the playerbase can create an end game. Like a true sandbox you know?

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:36:26 AM#416
Originally posted by morbidlymystic

EDIT:  Its slightly better now that you can't ninja gear, but still nothing remotely close to a health social environment.

 

Ugh! Again another example of how far off we are regards to this discussion. It seems like many others you believe the importance of gear that has .02 better stam than another is a vital part of an mmorpg... I repeat, quite sad what's happened to the genre.

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:37:13 AM#417
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by Genadi
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by Genadi

Hard content demands that you group together and form thos social aspects.  Easy content allows you to be anti-social and play by yourself.

 

That is such a ridiculous statement and so incorrect in so many ways. If you don't see how it's not my place to explain, I would only suggest play some more mmorpg's and do your homework before you post such dribble.

What? Teamwork=socialization. Last I checked easy content does not promote it, and infact is often worse off with teamwork, for a variety of reasons.

 

What on Earth are you talking about? Who said anything about easy content except for you lol? Like many before you, you have created an argument that wasn't there and isn't really up for debate to fit your narrative. Last few posts are a perfect example of why it's near impossible to have a normal discussion with players like yourself.

 

I don't want easy content or hard content, I want the tools so the playerbase can create an end game. Like a true sandbox you know?

Where did you learn your debate skills?  Faux Noise?

 

Thanks for addressing the false argument you created to fit your fanboi narrative. You've helped prove my point :)

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:39:55 AM#418
Originally posted by morbidlymystic     What you want is a failure of a game.  It will skyrocket and plummet just like every other trash f2p mmo out there if they rely on the playerbase to create their own endgame.

 

Nice ninja edit to prevent your troll warning from mods.

 

Your statement is untrue, in every single way untrue. Unless you have mind reading and future seeing abilities.

 

See how the discussion derails into stupidity when you start creating things to fit a narrative.

 

EDIT - You argue like Bill O'Reilly.

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

3/28/13 4:40:57 AM#419
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
What fanboy narrative troll?  I never even played ES, lol.

Wow.... says it all ^^^^^^

 

Thank you again for further proving my point with that statement.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

3/28/13 4:43:38 AM#420

I have hardcore raided and played games without it.

The thing I don't like about raids is the leetism and the fact thet they can be set up to effectively allow only a small % of the playerbase to do them.

The guild-focus and sense of acheivement from challenging raids is a good game element though - one subsequently usually ruined by the need to grind farm-status bosses, but fun whilst you are learning the ropes.

I think raids have a place and should be put in with the following caveats;

1. The gear they give is the best in game - but is matched by solo, small group and craftable routes

2. Gear and other rewards come in a medium term timeframe so as not to require endless farming

I mean why not have the way in which raiding works change to get rid of the bad and keep most of the good?

It really shouldn't be about either/or...

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