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151 posts found
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 3:58:36 PM#101
Originally posted by laokoko

Me personally I just think Elder scroll "can't" have raid because of the combat and profession design dont' allow them to do it.

It is kind of like GW2, I just think GW2 can't have raid because their combat system dont' enable them to design raid content.

That being said, if you don't like raid, you dont' ahve to raid.  I dont' understand how it bothers people that don't like to raid to have raid in the game.  Especially for a game that have like 300 million budget.

 

 Actually I will disagree greatly here.

You can have raid content with open classes. Asherons Call had massive boss mobs that took several groups to down, and GW2 has open world events that require 15+ to take down, a few that require 25+.

While it is HARDER for the players, because they actually have to LEARN their role instead of being TOLD what it is, it can still be done.

Personally I would have NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH RAIDS in a game, if raiders could ever tear themselves away from the idea that raiding requires uber loot that are ultra shiney that causes game imabalances on every level.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 4:02:39 PM#102
Originally posted by Sephiroso

You and everyone else should have learned your lesson. Time after time after time. It started with console games. 9 times out of 10, when you try to take a book or movie world and cram it into a game(console or pc) it will suck. Take Harry Potter for instance. The only Harry Potter games that are fun are the Lego Series(the lego series itself is very successful because its almost like a parody of the games and they just aim to make you laugh and have a good time).

 

The same deal when you try to take an established game series, TES and try to make an mmorpg. It's not going to be quite what you want it to be. It never will be. It may do somewhat fine, but it will never be what you want it to be at its core.

 Except that MMORPGs have already been made with the things the IP has, and the company isnt doing it like that because they always wanted to remake DaoC but couldnt get the money to do it.

But I do thank you for bringing up a bunch of unrelated crap that has nothing to do with what you are trying to say since the genre has proven you wrong so many times making your points MOOT.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 4:22:04 PM#103
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by laokoko

Me personally I just think Elder scroll "can't" have raid because of the combat and profession design dont' allow them to do it.

It is kind of like GW2, I just think GW2 can't have raid because their combat system dont' enable them to design raid content.

That being said, if you don't like raid, you dont' ahve to raid.  I dont' understand how it bothers people that don't like to raid to have raid in the game.  Especially for a game that have like 300 million budget.

 

 Actually I will disagree greatly here.

You can have raid content with open classes. Asherons Call had massive boss mobs that took several groups to down, and GW2 has open world events that require 15+ to take down, a few that require 25+.

While it is HARDER for the players, because they actually have to LEARN their role instead of being TOLD what it is, it can still be done.

Personally I would have NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH RAIDS in a game, if raiders could ever tear themselves away from the idea that raiding requires uber loot that are ultra shiney that causes game imabalances on every level.

Gw2 world mobs .......the biggest joke for a world boss I have seen in any game. Hit once. stand around, collect loot. The fact that you think they would be in the same catagory as a raid says alot.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 4:26:06 PM#104
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by laokoko

Me personally I just think Elder scroll "can't" have raid because of the combat and profession design dont' allow them to do it.

It is kind of like GW2, I just think GW2 can't have raid because their combat system dont' enable them to design raid content.

That being said, if you don't like raid, you dont' ahve to raid.  I dont' understand how it bothers people that don't like to raid to have raid in the game.  Especially for a game that have like 300 million budget.

 

 Actually I will disagree greatly here.

You can have raid content with open classes. Asherons Call had massive boss mobs that took several groups to down, and GW2 has open world events that require 15+ to take down, a few that require 25+.

While it is HARDER for the players, because they actually have to LEARN their role instead of being TOLD what it is, it can still be done.

Personally I would have NO ISSUES AT ALL WITH RAIDS in a game, if raiders could ever tear themselves away from the idea that raiding requires uber loot that are ultra shiney that causes game imabalances on every level.

Gw2 world mobs .......the biggest joke for a world boss I have seen in any game. Hit once. stand around, collect loot. The fact that you think they would be in the same catagory as a raid says alot.

you're letting your hatred blind you.

 

if everyone did that, the boss would roflstomp everyone. he said gw2 open world events require 15+ people to take down, which means 15 people actually doing the event, not 15+ dipshits being dipshits.

 

that having been said, this is why i despise open world bosses for this very reason. because you can and will have people that try to circumvent the system/game by doing things like this. this is why i like raids. Because its easy to tell if someone is being a dick and afking and they can be kicked from said raid.(better still when you have a guild)


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5823

3/22/13 4:27:49 PM#105

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear wasn't better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

Curse you AquaScum!

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 4:33:25 PM#106
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear wasn't better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

3/22/13 4:39:54 PM#107
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear wasn't better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

Pot meet kettle? Do you really need a refresher from the lore nerds not 3 days ago? Or how about the sandboxers? Or the housing thread? PvP? Derps are in every segment. Trying to hide behind "raiders" is 10 levels of retarded.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Hellidol

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 374

3/22/13 4:41:13 PM#108
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Only raids are a new concept not an old one...thanks for trying though...not even DaoC released with raids, that came after an xpac. Please try to frame your arugment to actually SOUND like its a strong one if you are going to inject sarcasm to discredit...you couldnt even touch on what I was calling outdated concepts which had nothing to do with raids because of your blind defense.

 

All comes down to personal preference. If we cater to ppl who don't like raids why not ater to those who don't like pvp, or crafting etc.

 

Seems to me its a better idea to please all the groups instead of just excluding raiders. If ppl don;t like raids, don;t do them.

This I don;t like raids so don;t ever include them seems to be one-sided and selfish.

 No. If they are not even targetting actual fans of the original IP, for DaoC fans, why should they cater to raiders which will vastly change whatever they have in place even more?!? All things are NOT equal.

You can cater to crafters, pvpers, soloers, casuals and a ton of others without vastly changing what is in place. Once you toss in raids, thats it, it all changes unless you take away the ONE thing almost all raiders focus on...shiney gear rewards for raiding.

Would you raid for a banner? for a costume? For a title?

If you say no, you are NOT willing to compromise at all, and thus have no room for trying to equate raiding to crafting. If you are, then go get a petition going showing these closed minded developers that there actually ARE different ways to implement old ideas that wont put the game into a spirial of never ending upward demand for gear and super uber god mobs to stay ahead of the stat curve.

Your argument is illogical. Crafters whine because they dont want to group but want the best items in the game. When did they compromise? When Paul Sage said crafting gives the best gear in the game and that actually with crafting you can ENHANCE gear from dungeons? Anyone can laugh when they're on their high horse

 

What's more illogical: People want an MMO to be engaging with other human players, or people who want to play an MMO as a single player game and still reap the rewards despite it being an MMO? To me it sounds much more logical to want to work with others in an MMO rather than isolate yourself.

success is a relaitive term, it really show how simple some people are when they only look at it from one perspective.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/22/13 4:43:46 PM#109
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 4:46:49 PM#110
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

he may have used the wrong term as far as scripted world, but his main point was how restricting ESO is compared to the TES games.

 

also a game HAS to be scripted. you can not have a game that isn't scripted. unless you have a game where there are no npcs and its only player against player, games will be scripted. this includes npcs, quests, raids, regular mobs you're fighting, events what have you, it will be scripted. until artificial intelligence reaches the level of human intelligence, we have to deal with it.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5823

3/22/13 4:55:13 PM#111
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

[mod edit]

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

Curse you AquaScum!

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/22/13 4:56:02 PM#112
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

he may have used the wrong term as far as scripted world, but his main point was how restricting ESO is compared to the TES games.

 

also a game HAS to be scripted. you can not have a game that isn't scripted. unless you have a game where there are no npcs and its only player against player, games will be scripted. this includes npcs, quests, raids, regular mobs you're fighting, events what have you, it will be scripted. until artificial intelligence reaches the level of human intelligence, we have to deal with it.

What it restricts in certain areas, it opens up in others. I don't recall any previous ES that let me play in the same world with my friends. Actually, if the gripe is that the main quest is single player, I'd argue that's MORE in keeping with TES tradition than not, lol.

Let's he honest, there are always going to be a hundred differences between an MMO and it's single player equivalent. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until the annointed torchbearers from the Cult of True ES can experience it for themselves, I think they need to throttle back on the fanatic forum rage.

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 5:02:35 PM#113
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

[mod edit]

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

WoW. Want the best PvP gear? Guess what, you have to PVP to get it. As for PvE gear. Yes, the majority of pve gear the best comes from raids. But Blizzard has been getting better with each expansion in giving crafters the ability to craft Best in Slot gear. So no, not ALL BiS comes from raiding, they actually have alot of BiS that comes from crafting, and a hell of alot more 2nd BiS or equivalent which comes from raiding.

 

Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

he may have used the wrong term as far as scripted world, but his main point was how restricting ESO is compared to the TES games.

 

also a game HAS to be scripted. you can not have a game that isn't scripted. unless you have a game where there are no npcs and its only player against player, games will be scripted. this includes npcs, quests, raids, regular mobs you're fighting, events what have you, it will be scripted. until artificial intelligence reaches the level of human intelligence, we have to deal with it.

What it restricts in certain areas, it opens up in others. I don't recall any previous ES that let me play in the same world with my friends. Actually, if the gripe is that the main quest is single player, I'd argue that's MORE in keeping with TES tradition than not, lol.

Let's he honest, there are always going to be a hundred differences between an MMO and it's single player equivalent. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and until the annointed torchbearers from the Cult of True ES can experience it for themselves, I think they need to throttle back on the fanatic forum rage.

Obviously ES doesn't let you play in the same world as your friends, its a fucking single player game. But guess what, modders found a way that you can do just that. So you were saying?


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5823

3/22/13 5:04:14 PM#114
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

he may have used the wrong term as far as scripted world, but his main point was how restricting ESO is compared to the TES games.

 

also a game HAS to be scripted. you can not have a game that isn't scripted. unless you have a game where there are no npcs and its only player against player, games will be scripted. this includes npcs, quests, raids, regular mobs you're fighting, events what have you, it will be scripted. until artificial intelligence reaches the level of human intelligence, we have to deal with it.

Of course mobs and npcs are scripted, but there is a huge difference between that and scripted instances. 

With instanced raids or dungeons, the entire encounter is scripted from beginning to end.  There is one (or if lucky 2 or 3) solutions to the puzzle.  It plays exactly the same every single time (jump now, don't jump now,  stay out of the colored circle, only stay in the colored circle, dps before the enrage timer hits, hit the boss while he's glowing, never hit the boss while he's glowing).

It's not really even a challenge once you run through it a few times.  Use an acceptable build, perform the rotation, disco dance the script, and boom you're done.  If that was all it's about then it probably wouldn't be so bad, but it's always about gating, gear, and exclusivity.  That's really why it should be killed off as a design feature.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5823

3/22/13 5:07:26 PM#115
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

WoW. Want the best PvP gear? Guess what, you have to PVP to get it. As for PvE gear. Yes, the majority of pve gear the best comes from raids. But Blizzard has been getting better with each expansion in giving crafters the ability to craft Best in Slot gear. So no, not ALL BiS comes from raiding, they actually have alot of BiS that comes from crafting, and a hell of alot more 2nd BiS or equivalent which comes from raiding.

And how do crafters get those BiS components?  From dungeons or raids.  Oh that's right to craft the BiS gear you need dungeon/raid components.  Again, it's all gated and locked behind the raid progression content.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 5:08:46 PM#116
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by hMJem

The only thing worse than scripted Raids is a scripted world, which is very against TES tradition. Invisible walls keeping you out of the other factions, being phased away from all other humans during the main story, being phased away from the other factions when youre questing in their zones.

 

An MMO keeping you away from the players.. Interesting

... Seriously? TES games are scripted like crazy. Nearly every quest you do follows a scripted event. Did you ever play through the Dark Brotherhood? All of the story kills are scripted. The main quest is all scripted. Hell even the "random events" are all scripted.

he may have used the wrong term as far as scripted world, but his main point was how restricting ESO is compared to the TES games.

 

also a game HAS to be scripted. you can not have a game that isn't scripted. unless you have a game where there are no npcs and its only player against player, games will be scripted. this includes npcs, quests, raids, regular mobs you're fighting, events what have you, it will be scripted. until artificial intelligence reaches the level of human intelligence, we have to deal with it.

Of course mobs and npcs are scripted, but there is a huge difference between that and scripted instances. 

With instanced raids or dungeons, the entire encounter is scripted from beginning to end.  There is one (or if lucky 2 or 3) solutions to the puzzle.  It plays exactly the same every single time (jump now, don't jump now,  stay out of the colored circle, only stay in the colored circle, dps before the enrage timer hits, hit the boss while he's glowing, never hit the boss while he's glowing).

It's not really even a challenge once you run through it a few times.  Use an acceptable build, perform the rotation, disco dance the script, and boom you're done.  If that was all it's about then it probably wouldn't be so bad, but it's always about gating, gear, and exclusivity.  That's really why it should be killed off as a design feature.

I'm done replying to you after this post. I explained perfectly the last time i quoted to you just what the 'raiders' are asking for, and you yourself in this quote said "If that was all it's about then it probably wouldn't be so bad" so you agreed with me which is why im not gonna bother replying to anything else you have to say.

 

That said, as a parting message, The whole gating, gear, exclusivity is what should be killed off as a design feature, NOT raids themselves. I'll leave you to figure out the why as i've already explained it to you, you must have some really dark shades on.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

3/22/13 5:17:40 PM#117

quite honestly I'll do raid even if they don't have any loot.

And it is not even that.  The problem I have is the lackster of 5 man dungeon.  Basically the dungeon sucks.  When you take away roles and min/maxer and "roles"... it creat a problem of "balance".  And you just can't balance a game where people just build whatever way they want. 

ya and I understand the whole "I dont' like scripted pve dungeon/raid".  You don't need to tell me.  People like different things.  The way I look at is you don't have to do pve dungeon if you don't want to.  Just like you don't have to pvp if you don't like it.

and the weird thing is it is usually the people who don't raid complaining about loot.  I mean why do they need loot for?  to kill open world critters that they can kill just by auto attack?  and don't tell me they need it for pvp.  most mmorpg have pvp gear specific for it. 

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/22/13 5:27:41 PM#118
Originally posted by laokoko

quite honestly I'll do raid even if they don't have any loot.

And it is not even that.  The problem I have is the lackster of 5 man dungeon.  Basically the dungeon sucks.  When you take away roles and min/maxer and "roles"... it creat a problem of "balance".  And you just can't balance a game where people just build whatever way they want. 

ya and I understand the whole "I dont' like scripted pve dungeon/raid".  You don't need to tell me.  People like different things.  The way I look at is you don't have to do pve dungeon if you don't want to.  Just like you don't have to pvp if you don't like it.

thats the argument of a logical person. but most of these people clamoring for the end of raids are the opposite of that. they dont seem to use logic. but in the end, if the devs aren't going to have raids in this game, thats their choice and i'll gladly give this game a pass.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/22/13 5:30:21 PM#119
Originally posted by laokoko

quite honestly I'll do raid even if they don't have any loot.

And it is not even that.  The problem I have is the lackster of 5 man dungeon.  Basically the dungeon sucks.  When you take away roles and min/maxer and "roles"... it creat a problem of "balance".  And you just can't balance a game where people just build whatever way they want. 

 

Actually you can create a 5 man that can anticipate and react to what ever the players builds are. Unfortunately the Producers/Management does not want to invest the time or $$ into the coding and testing that would be needed to pull it off corectly. In the end stats/abilities are just numbers and a coder/scripter can always adjust things once certain thresholds are met or not met. It just takes time and creativity. The creative/mangement people usually just give the software engineers bananas and coffee as we are just code monkeys who dont mind working 18 a day for months ..... So to say that something can't be done would be wrong. Instead say that it hasn't been done yet.  43 years ago you could have said it was impossible for man to walk on the moon, but we all know it just had not been done yet.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 5:36:44 PM#120
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's pretty hilarious seeing the raiders cry and twitch.  I thought nerd rage was the funniest rage, but it's raider nerd rage that is most funny.

The raiders in the thread pretty much have proven the point to everyone else why people don't want that in the game.  Raiders won't be happy unless they have the best gear.  They'll bullshit you now and say it's all about challenge, but it's not.  It's about exclusivity and being able to hold that over others.

If raiding was added to the game and the gear better than any other gear the tears would once again start flowing.  They would say how their content is the only challenging content so they deserve gear that is better.  They would explain that "baddies" don't deserve the gear.  And then they would let the casuals (that's everyone who doesn't raid because only raiders are hardcore) know that they too can get the gear if they just do the raids (subject to approval for admission to the raid group of course).

Instanced, repeatable, scripted raids are one of the worst design paradigms to hit the genre ever.

[mod edit]

Of course it's regurgitated.  It came from straight from listening to raiders.

Yes you could have raids that don't offer the best gear, but the fact is that there are no games where the best gear isn't locked behind raids.  What raiding game offers raiders worse gear than any other playstyle?  There isn't one.

Yes, scripted dungeons are bad.  I put them as the third worst thing to hit the genre behind themepark arena style pvp.  Master modes in Rift weren't too bad, but you can only do the exact same thing over and over again so long before it becomes boring.

There are still plenty of options for raiders though (Rift, WoW, EQ2, EQ, LotRO).  Not every new game coming out needs to cater to your type of people.

Just because a game  has raids doesn't mean it caters to them. The only ones who think this way are the ones who hate raids. Time to take off the tinfoil hat.

Seems to me the only elitists in this thread are the ones saying don't inlcude raiding. If you don't like to raid, don't do it. Raiders raid, non-raiders do what they want to do. Everyone is happy.

 

The only people who wouldn't be happy are the ones who envy what others have. That problem is behind the keyboard, not a game mechanic.

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