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Zenimax Online Studios | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 04/04/14)  | Pub:Bethesda Softworks
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151 posts found
  Yukmarc

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 95

3/22/13 3:45:31 PM#81
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Hey mister. Let me tell you what raids are for. Raids are for players who have more time than 5 hours a day to spend on the game, up to 15 hours. Raids are activities for players who play the game for a long time. I'm sorry, maybe we are just different people, but after I hit max level in a week after the game release (doesn't matter if its 1 day or 1 month), what will I do with that spec of yours if I don't have anything to use it on? Elaborate to me somehow and explain to me, if you play an mmorpg 5 hours a day, sometimes in the weekends even 10 hours. A YEAR straight. Lets say about 3000-4000 hours. Just a random estimate. What would you do all that time? Kill goblins? Do an easy dungeon over and over and over again? Do same battlegrounds 1000 hours straight? Have you played a themepark mmorpg for more than, lets say, half a year? I've played some for 5000-10000+ hours and I wouldn't ever even played a quarter of it without any raid content.

Hey Mister, first of all, let me say, that you sir, need to get out more. That being said, yes, I have played multiple MMO's for YEARS. However, they were UO and DOAC. I find your type of MMO kind of boring. So if you want to fill your years playing themeparks, go ahead and stick with the current crop of them. You will always have a WoW clone available to you, but it doesn't mean that EVERY MMO has to be like that.

No I don't need to get out more, I get out enough and it's not interesting, sorry, I live to play games.
 That said, if you find "my type of mmo" boring, then why are you talking about ESO? It's a themepark game. It's not going to be anything like UO. It's going to be like WoW/Swtor/whatever game like that. Did you just discover about it today, have you even read what the game is?
 No I don't have any WoW clone available to me, all of them are shit and don't clone WoW at all. And WoW has only gone downhill to appeal to dumber and newer people for many years already, you know, those who want bad builds be viable and stuff.

LOL Touché.

Nope, been following since the beginning. Sounds like it's going to be the best of both worlds. They are trying to do something a bit different, so people need to stop crying when it's not like all the others. If it works, it works. If it fails, it fails, but at least they are trying something different.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 414

3/22/13 3:46:06 PM#82
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

I was one of the 6 million that bought the game. Played it for 2 weeks tops. But still counted as one of those 6 million.

GW2 hasn't grown its concurrent plkayerbase since the launch. Alot of people bought the game, but how many are still playing we will never know.

  Yukmarc

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 95

3/22/13 3:47:50 PM#83
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Hey mister. Let me tell you what raids are for. Raids are for players who have more time than 5 hours a day to spend on the game, up to 15 hours. Raids are activities for players who play the game for a long time. I'm sorry, maybe we are just different people, but after I hit max level in a week after the game release (doesn't matter if its 1 day or 1 month), what will I do with that spec of yours if I don't have anything to use it on? Elaborate to me somehow and explain to me, if you play an mmorpg 5 hours a day, sometimes in the weekends even 10 hours. A YEAR straight. Lets say about 3000-4000 hours. Just a random estimate. What would you do all that time? Kill goblins? Do an easy dungeon over and over and over again? Do same battlegrounds 1000 hours straight? Have you played a themepark mmorpg for more than, lets say, half a year? I've played some for 5000-10000+ hours and I wouldn't ever even played a quarter of it without any raid content.

Hey Mister, first of all, let me say, that you sir, need to get out more. That being said, yes, I have played multiple MMO's for YEARS. However, they were UO and DOAC. I find your type of MMO kind of boring. So if you want to fill your years playing themeparks, go ahead and stick with the current crop of them. You will always have a WoW clone available to you, but it doesn't mean that EVERY MMO has to be like that.

No I don't need to get out more, I get out enough and it's not interesting, sorry, I live to play games.
 That said, if you find "my type of mmo" boring, then why are you talking about ESO? It's a themepark game. It's not going to be anything like UO. It's going to be like WoW/Swtor/whatever game like that. Did you just discover about it today, have you even read what the game is?
 No I don't have any WoW clone available to me, all of them are shit and don't clone WoW at all. And WoW has only gone downhill to appeal to dumber and newer people for many years already, you know, those who want bad builds be viable and stuff.

LOL Touché.

Nope, been following since the beginning. Sounds like it's going to be the best of both worlds. They are trying to do something a bit different, so people need to stop crying when it's not like all the others. If it works, it works. If it fails, it fails, but at least they are trying something different.

 

Sorry for double post.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 3:48:53 PM#84
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by JasonJ

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

Do you know what game shits ON ALL OF THOSE. MAPLE STORY. MAPLE STORY HAS MORE PLAYERS THAN WORLD OF WARCRAFT UO DAOC SHITSTICKS all together. All games should copy maple story not shitcraft or shitwars because clearly it has the best elements an mmorpg can have.

Oh wait why am I comparing a free mmorpg to a subscription based mmorpg. Wait, why are you comparing guild wars to wow?

 Do you know what game created a raid finder for what they said was a part of the game played by such a SMALL AMOUNT of the playerbase? World of Warcraft.

Why are you comparing World of Warcraft to games that had NO finders for solo or small group content?

Raiders, they have a site called elitist JERKS for a reason. they are a very small group of people that think they are better than everyone else. This game is not for you, time to move on...back to your old games.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 414

3/22/13 3:48:54 PM#85
Originally posted by Murdus

"Gentlemen" doing XYZ Raid today! Please send a tell with your gear and stats, must have XYZ!

 

all over the place. I hate walking on my treadmill. That's why I don't want raids.

Then don't do them. There are many guilds who do raids and don't demand you to be overgeared to do them.

 

But instead of making frienbds with those players I guess its easier to focus on the ones you don't like.

 

Seems to me the problem is behind the keyboard.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 3:50:09 PM#86
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

I was one of the 6 million that bought the game. Played it for 2 weeks tops. But still counted as one of those 6 million.

GW2 hasn't grown its concurrent plkayerbase since the launch. Alot of people bought the game, but how many are still playing we will never know.

WoW has 9 million current subscribers. GW1 probably had 6 million MAX at one time. That time wasnt anytime soon.

 

And as said, GW2 and other games have rapidly gone down the tank. The best comparison is Star Wars: I bet they advertise the 3 million or whatever right? Because how exciting is it to say "We have 500k players!" 2.5 MILLION people quit Star Wars in less than a year. People impulse buy games all the time. I am guilty of it too. I bought SWTOR. I stopped after a week. When a game gets hyped, I get hyped and try to convince myself.

 

And if you really want to compare, compare the gross revenue from WoW to GW2. I bet its disgustingly far off in number disparity.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 87

3/22/13 3:54:48 PM#87
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by JasonJ

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

Do you know what game shits ON ALL OF THOSE. MAPLE STORY. MAPLE STORY HAS MORE PLAYERS THAN WORLD OF WARCRAFT UO DAOC SHITSTICKS all together. All games should copy maple story not shitcraft or shitwars because clearly it has the best elements an mmorpg can have.

Oh wait why am I comparing a free mmorpg to a subscription based mmorpg. Wait, why are you comparing guild wars to wow?

 Do you know what game created a raid finder for what they said was a part of the game played by such a SMALL AMOUNT of the playerbase? World of Warcraft.

Why are you comparing World of Warcraft to games that had NO finders for solo or small group content?

Raiders, they have a site called elitist JERKS for a reason. they are a very small group of people that think they are better than everyone else. This game is not for you, time to move on...back to your old games.

Yeah, but you see, I don't know why, but every time those elitist jerks quit a game, somehow the nonelitist jerks quit as well. Probably because their friends aren't playing anymore. You know, it's one giant chain reaction. I've only seen exactly same thing in like 15 titles I've played in the past 10 years, but maybe I am just wrong.

  Total_Hunt

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/13
Posts: 66

3/22/13 3:58:09 PM#88

Why all the hate against raids? Your hate should be against the gear treadmill, which is avoidable by a B2P price plan.

 

The most fun I've had in any MMO was 25m raiding in WoW TBC. Doing things in a large group feels much more 'epic' than a lazy 4-8 man dungeon, which is just co-op with friends. And no I'm not talking about Rifts / Dynamic Events / Public quests or any of that bullshit.

 

I agree that raiding shouldn't be the only way to get the best gear, it should just be challenging content for the hardcore PvE players do do for fun and prestige. Titles, mounts, server first announcements etc.

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 295

3/22/13 4:02:31 PM#89

Since PvP has become a sticking point for balance many games have separate PvP stats, skills and/or gear. Since raiding is another sub-class  why not have a simular system of raid only stats, skills and gear? My guess is this would fail but I'd like to see the experiment. Is it enough for the raider to get the better gear if it has no effect on the other parts of the game? Or does that raiding time commitment mean you think you should have a game-wide advantage? 

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 4:05:05 PM#90
Originally posted by Muntz

Since PvP has become a sticking point for balance many games have separate PvP stats, skills and/or gear. Since raiding is another sub-class  why not have a simular system of raid only stats, skills and gear? My guess is this would fail but I'd like to see the experiment. Is it enough for the raider to get the better gear if it has no effect on the other parts of the game? Or does that raiding time commitment mean you think you should have a game-wide advantage? 

It's been about 7 years since you could PvP in WoW with PvE gear. If you dont have a full set of PvP gear,  youre a free kill and a wasted spot.

 

Raiding gear has always been for PvE purposes, with super rare exceptions on amazingly rare weapons.

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 295

3/22/13 4:11:15 PM#91
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muntz

Since PvP has become a sticking point for balance many games have separate PvP stats, skills and/or gear. Since raiding is another sub-class  why not have a simular system of raid only stats, skills and gear? My guess is this would fail but I'd like to see the experiment. Is it enough for the raider to get the better gear if it has no effect on the other parts of the game? Or does that raiding time commitment mean you think you should have a game-wide advantage? 

It's been about 7 years since you could PvP in WoW with PvE gear. If you dont have a full set of PvP gear,  youre a free kill and a wasted spot.

 

Raiding gear has always been for PvE purposes, with super rare exceptions on amazingly rare weapons.

That is kind of the point, it doesn't mean every game has to continue to be that way. At one time there was no distiction between PvE and PvP gear someone changed. Same thing could be done for raiding.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 4:27:52 PM#92
Originally posted by Vembumees

Yeah, but you see, I don't know why, but every time those elitist jerks quit a game, somehow the nonelitist jerks quit as well. Probably because their friends aren't playing anymore. You know, it's one giant chain reaction. I've only seen exactly same thing in like 15 titles I've played in the past 10 years, but maybe I am just wrong.

 Clearly as can be seen by looking at...no game at all...because it hasnt happened.

No game is going to be effected by a tiny portion of the population leaving when they has SEPERATED themselves from everyone else, because they are elitists that only play with other elitists.

No one is losing their "friends" other than other elitists. And as can be plainly seen by WoW and other games adding raid finders, and even more games not giving a rats behind about raiders, that few are going to miss them from their business model that is targetting the LARGER audience.

There will be plenty of other games targetting a tiny niche, like CU and RAIDERZOMG. Those games are for you.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 414

3/22/13 4:35:35 PM#93
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Vembumees

Yeah, but you see, I don't know why, but every time those elitist jerks quit a game, somehow the nonelitist jerks quit as well. Probably because their friends aren't playing anymore. You know, it's one giant chain reaction. I've only seen exactly same thing in like 15 titles I've played in the past 10 years, but maybe I am just wrong.

 Clearly as can be seen by looking at...no game at all...because it hasnt happened.

No game is going to be effected by a tiny portion of the population leaving when they has SEPERATED themselves from everyone else, because they are elitists that only play with other elitists.

No one is losing their "friends" other than other elitists. And as can be plainly seen by WoW and other games adding raid finders, and even more games not giving a rats behind about raiders, that few are going to miss them from their business model that is targetting the LARGER audience.

There will be plenty of other games targetting a tiny niche, like CU and RAIDERZOMG. Those games are for you.

"No game is going to be effected by a tiny portion of the population"

 

Then all this talk about elitist raiders impacting the game wont happen then.

 

Glad we cleared that up.

 

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/22/13 4:38:24 PM#94

Personally I don't think raids are pure evil. I also do not think that all raiders deserve a bad rap based on a few bad apples.

The fault of raids is due to the reason for why they are in a given game. If they are there for nothing more than to create a gear tier system then the deserve a lot of the scorn they are receiving. However if they are organically woven into the game worlds fabric and serve a purpose which accents and gives color to the world then they should be better received. Let us take GW2 as an example, the dragons have to be somewhere when they are not attacking the same spot of land in a few zones. Maybe an improvement would be to have some well hidden lair up in the mountains or a cave underwater become available so that the force of people that just defeated the dragon could go raid the lair/cave.  This would change the mentality of always defending a location to one of taking the fight to the enemy.

Another fault of raids is the trash mob/raid boss design model, not all raids need to have a boss guarded by trash. This is where the design gets lazy, and not that a game has raids.  A raid dungeon does not always have to have the boss set up in the very last room with all the treasure located there. I believe that the "raid" should fit into the context of the surrounding game area and not have things like meeting stones or raid summoning apparatus that say with neon arrows "Boss Dungeon: Here".

Gear and resources being the best is also lazy design and is all part of the risk/reward school of thought. Personally I feel the weapons and armor had to be crafted by someone so why can't raid gear be equal to crafted gear? Should the gear that crafters make take time to make, yes absolutely. Should the materials that make the best gear be harder to find and less of it in the game, again yes it should absolutely. Should you have to raid to get the best of the best, absolutely not. I would like to see a system where gear (where ever it comes from) be reverse engineered by a crafter of equal or greater skill to gain its "recipe". I also think crafters should always have a chance to fail when crafting/reverse engineering something.

I think that raids are an important part of the game, but their purpose should be for people who enjoy the challenge of multi-group content. Call it the epitome of grouping. The chance to get good gear should be higher, but the best gear should be available to anyone that works to get it in their chosen path be it crafting, 4 man dungeons, RvR, or raiding.

  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1131

3/22/13 4:50:54 PM#95

Are you guys really trying to make the people at Elitist Jerks seem like assholes? They're geeks if anything. They spend their time theorycrafting the game to help better themselves primarily but also so others can better themselves.

 

It is a guilds choice or a group/raid leader's choice to lay down the law on requirements to join said guild/group/raid. If you do not meet their requirements, you don't get in. This applies in real life. Want to get into Harvard? You have to have an impeccable GPA, and a sleugh of other different requirements. If you don't meet them, you do not get into Harvard.

 

Just because people impose requirements to join their guild/group/raid does not make them assholes. They choose to play efficiently, its only natural they wish to find other like minded people to play efficiently with.

 

If you happen to run into a person in random lfg dungeon that's ripping on you for not being the best of the best, sure that person is a dick. But do not equate those type of people to the people at Elitist Jerks(website).

 

The name itself Elitist Jerks is a joke because close minded indivisuals(read: baddies, casuals, just overall idiots) call them such, so they made it their moniker as a joke.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  SaintWalker44

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 87

3/22/13 4:51:06 PM#96
Im good with dungeons only..  your doin fine Zenimax, keep it up...

All Will Be Well.....

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 4:52:00 PM#97
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Clearly which is why not one of your replies has actually given any information and filled with base generalizations and opinion, then when faced with an actual refute, never directly addressed.

Its simple, this game isnt for you and now you want to cry like all the people you defended the game against for wanting a more open world for more gameplay options.

Shoe is on the other foot...yours...doesnt feel good does it? Perhaps next time instead of working AGINST everyone in early blind defense of the game, you will work TOGETHER to get a game more people want. Perhaps this is the wakeup call some people seemed to have needed.

Yeah it probably isn't. It's probably going to be a single player mmorpg with terrible level 50 experience like swtor that everyone will trashtalk when you mention it in any other game's chat 3 months later. And nobody will give a shit. There are a lot better releases incoming, ESO is just one of the nearest.

PS: I don't want to cry, I don't really give a shit about this game, I just understand that if this is what they want to do, it will destroy their game. That's all. It's just another mmorpg title out of many like every year, nothing special.

 Well, a lot of people have been saying the exact same thing when they found out that they were making TES based on DaoC. They nor I want to cry, we want an actual TES MMO based on TES, not DaoC...its game design was so limiting they even had to change the lore for the design to make sense.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1936

3/22/13 4:53:47 PM#98

Me personally I just think Elder scroll "can't" have raid because of the combat and profession design dont' allow them to do it.

It is kind of like GW2, I just think GW2 can't have raid because their combat system dont' enable them to design raid content.

That being said, if you don't like raid, you dont' ahve to raid.  I dont' understand how it bothers people that don't like to raid to have raid in the game.  Especially for a game that have like 300 million budget.

The most weird thing is people get irritated that they need gear check for raid.  And those people dont' even raid... They say they don't like raid and don't raid.  So how does gear check bother them?

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 4:55:44 PM#99
Originally posted by Sephiroso

Are you guys really trying to make the people at Elitist Jerks seem like assholes?

 If you had read any of the threads about the GW2 Bunker Elementalists you wouldnt be saying that.

It was a riot that got so heated they instantly delete GW2 threads now...seriously those losers got so pissed that they couldnt figure out how to do it they were calling every video a lie, even spammed peoples Youtube accounts about video editing and making it up.

Seriously...even calling them azzholes would be a compliment. They proved themselves to be anything but elite because they were faced with something that wouldnt allow them to faceroll and actually presented a real challenge and thus made them out to be the things that may get me banned here if I say it kind of people.

  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1131

3/22/13 4:55:50 PM#100
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Clearly which is why not one of your replies has actually given any information and filled with base generalizations and opinion, then when faced with an actual refute, never directly addressed.

Its simple, this game isnt for you and now you want to cry like all the people you defended the game against for wanting a more open world for more gameplay options.

Shoe is on the other foot...yours...doesnt feel good does it? Perhaps next time instead of working AGINST everyone in early blind defense of the game, you will work TOGETHER to get a game more people want. Perhaps this is the wakeup call some people seemed to have needed.

Yeah it probably isn't. It's probably going to be a single player mmorpg with terrible level 50 experience like swtor that everyone will trashtalk when you mention it in any other game's chat 3 months later. And nobody will give a shit. There are a lot better releases incoming, ESO is just one of the nearest.

PS: I don't want to cry, I don't really give a shit about this game, I just understand that if this is what they want to do, it will destroy their game. That's all. It's just another mmorpg title out of many like every year, nothing special.

 Well, a lot of people have been saying the exact same thing when they found out that they were making TES based on DaoC. They nor I want to cry, we want an actual TES MMO based on TES, not DaoC...its game design was so limiting they even had to change the lore for the design to make sense.

You and everyone else should have learned your lesson. Time after time after time. It started with console games. 9 times out of 10, when you try to take a book or movie world and cram it into a game(console or pc) it will suck. Take Harry Potter for instance. The only Harry Potter games that are fun are the Lego Series(the lego series itself is very successful because its almost like a parody of the games and they just aim to make you laugh and have a good time).

 

The same deal when you try to take an established game series, TES and try to make an mmorpg. It's not going to be quite what you want it to be. It never will be. It may do somewhat fine, but it will never be what you want it to be at its core.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

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