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151 posts found
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:08:01 PM#61
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

Actually, it shows the limits of THIER creativity for going back and using a 13+ year old idea that nobody else wanted because of its design flaws...and their lack of being able to come up with anything original, which you dont see from other designers that have been making MMOs for as long...every single one of them, even the ones I CANT STAND like Raph Koster at least created 3 very DIFFERENT designs and new ideas.

They should remove dungeons, used in the old MMOs as well. Take out crafting as well, oh ya...pvp, another old mechanic. Classes, yup...take that out. Abilites, another pesky mechanic used in the games of old.

 

Why people just admit that they have a misguided personal grudge against raids because they envy the items obtained from raids but just don't want to put in the effort to get them.

 Only raids are a new concept not an old one...thanks for trying though...not even DaoC released with raids, that came after an xpac. Please try to frame your arugment to actually SOUND like its a strong one if you are going to inject sarcasm to discredit...you couldnt even touch on what I was calling outdated concepts which had nothing to do with raids because of your blind defense.

  Yukmarc

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 92

3/22/13 2:15:39 PM#62
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Most games I now allow the player to have multiple builds. And even if it doesn't, when it somes to working with a group of people isn't it better to build a character the synergizes with the group. I know I know, why shouldn't you be able to do your own thing? That leads to the question, if you want to do your own thing for you why are you trying to do group based content.

Have you ever played a PnP RPG? Did you create the character that you wanted or something that the group wanted? Have you ever played a MUD? This is where MMO's came from. Nobody told me what I needed to play as a group in UO or EQ, I made what I wanted, I played the way I wanted to play and always had groups and guilds. Players telling me what I can and can't do based on a 3rd party "gear score" is crap and this is where the problem lies. After all, it IS an RPG.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 2:16:08 PM#63
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

Actually, it shows the limits of THIER creativity for going back and using a 13+ year old idea that nobody else wanted because of its design flaws...and their lack of being able to come up with anything original, which you dont see from other designers that have been making MMOs for as long...every single one of them, even the ones I CANT STAND like Raph Koster at least created 3 very DIFFERENT designs and new ideas.

They should remove dungeons, used in the old MMOs as well. Take out crafting as well, oh ya...pvp, another old mechanic. Classes, yup...take that out. Abilites, another pesky mechanic used in the games of old.

 

Why people just admit that they have a misguided personal grudge against raids because they envy the items obtained from raids but just don't want to put in the effort to get them.

 Only raids are a new concept not an old one...thanks for trying though...not even DaoC released with raids, that came after an xpac. Please try to frame your arugment to actually SOUND like its a strong one if you are going to inject sarcasm to discredit...you couldnt even touch on what I was calling outdated concepts which had nothing to do with raids because of your blind defense.

 

All comes down to personal preference. If we cater to ppl who don't like raids why not ater to those who don't like pvp, or crafting etc.

 

Seems to me its a better idea to please all the groups instead of just excluding raiders. If ppl don;t like raids, don;t do them.

This I don;t like raids so don;t ever include them seems to be one-sided and selfish.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:16:14 PM#64
Originally posted by Hellidol

You do understand the the main guy developing this game is one of the guys that made the first most successful MMO out there, call UO.

 You do understand that not even Richard Garriott had full creative control over UO and most of it was done by Raph Koster right? No...otherwise you wouldnt have said that. Said so by Garriott himself, the man who funded and came up with the idea for UO and how it should play out. Thanks, come again. PS Garriott, Starr Long nor Rick Delashmit have anything to do with TESO.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 2:19:10 PM#65
Originally posted by Yukmarc
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Most games I now allow the player to have multiple builds. And even if it doesn't, when it somes to working with a group of people isn't it better to build a character the synergizes with the group. I know I know, why shouldn't you be able to do your own thing? That leads to the question, if you want to do your own thing for you why are you trying to do group based content.

Have you ever played a PnP RPG? Did you create the character that you wanted or something that the group wanted? Have you ever played a MUD? This is where MMO's came from. Nobody told me what I needed to play as a group in UO or EQ, I made what I wanted, I played the way I wanted to play and always had groups and guilds. Players telling me what I can and can't do based on a 3rd party "gear score" is crap and this is where the problem lies. After all, it IS an RPG.

And jhust because you crerated your character just the way you wanted doesn't make you entitled to do all content available.

Others see a challenge and adapt to overcome. Others QQ and ask for the developers to take the challenge away to suit their own wants.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:20:38 PM#66
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Only raids are a new concept not an old one...thanks for trying though...not even DaoC released with raids, that came after an xpac. Please try to frame your arugment to actually SOUND like its a strong one if you are going to inject sarcasm to discredit...you couldnt even touch on what I was calling outdated concepts which had nothing to do with raids because of your blind defense.

 

All comes down to personal preference. If we cater to ppl who don't like raids why not ater to those who don't like pvp, or crafting etc.

 

Seems to me its a better idea to please all the groups instead of just excluding raiders. If ppl don;t like raids, don;t do them.

This I don;t like raids so don;t ever include them seems to be one-sided and selfish.

 No. If they are not even targetting actual fans of the original IP, for DaoC fans, why should they cater to raiders which will vastly change whatever they have in place even more?!? All things are NOT equal.

You can cater to crafters, pvpers, soloers, casuals and a ton of others without vastly changing what is in place. Once you toss in raids, thats it, it all changes unless you take away the ONE thing almost all raiders focus on...shiney gear rewards for raiding.

Would you raid for a banner? for a costume? For a title?

If you say no, you are NOT willing to compromise at all, and thus have no room for trying to equate raiding to crafting. If you are, then go get a petition going showing these closed minded developers that there actually ARE different ways to implement old ideas that wont put the game into a spirial of never ending upward demand for gear and super uber god mobs to stay ahead of the stat curve.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1594

3/22/13 2:21:39 PM#67

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Yukmarc

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 92

3/22/13 2:22:33 PM#68
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Hey mister. Let me tell you what raids are for. Raids are for players who have more time than 5 hours a day to spend on the game, up to 15 hours. Raids are activities for players who play the game for a long time. I'm sorry, maybe we are just different people, but after I hit max level in a week after the game release (doesn't matter if its 1 day or 1 month), what will I do with that spec of yours if I don't have anything to use it on? Elaborate to me somehow and explain to me, if you play an mmorpg 5 hours a day, sometimes in the weekends even 10 hours. A YEAR straight. Lets say about 3000-4000 hours. Just a random estimate. What would you do all that time? Kill goblins? Do an easy dungeon over and over and over again? Do same battlegrounds 1000 hours straight? Have you played a themepark mmorpg for more than, lets say, half a year? I've played some for 5000-10000+ hours and I wouldn't ever even played a quarter of it without any raid content.

Hey Mister, first of all, let me say, that you sir, need to get out more. That being said, yes, I have played multiple MMO's for YEARS. However, they were UO and DOAC. I find your type of MMO kind of boring. So if you want to fill your years playing themeparks, go ahead and stick with the current crop of them. You will always have a WoW clone available to you, but it doesn't mean that EVERY MMO has to be like that.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:24:41 PM#69
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

  Hellidol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 364

3/22/13 2:26:00 PM#70
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

You do understand the the main guy developing this game is one of the guys that made the first most successful MMO out there, call UO.

 You do understand that not even Richard Garriott had full creative control over UO and most of it was done by Raph Koster right? No...otherwise you wouldnt have said that. Said so by Garriott himself, the man who funded and came up with the idea for UO and how it should play out. Thanks, come again. PS Garriott, Starr Long nor Rick Delashmit have anything to do with TESO.

Notice i said "ONE" of the guys....the point is your mentality of MMO's need raiding to work is flawed and one sided. You bring no original though of your own, you relay on others to create a puzzle and you to figure it out. Personally I would raither contribute to making a puzzle or in this case molding my game play raither then wait for someone else to do everything. Give me the tools and I share create great art. Make the art for me and all I can do is comment on it. This game will have everything for everyone but the raider which is fine, its not the game for you, simple solution dont play it.

  Hellidol

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 364

3/22/13 2:27:03 PM#71
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

EVE comes to mind.....very successful by it own rights and in may peoples eyes....just not yours.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:27:47 PM#72
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by JasonJ

 Only raids are a new concept not an old one...thanks for trying though...not even DaoC released with raids, that came after an xpac. Please try to frame your arugment to actually SOUND like its a strong one if you are going to inject sarcasm to discredit...you couldnt even touch on what I was calling outdated concepts which had nothing to do with raids because of your blind defense.

 

All comes down to personal preference. If we cater to ppl who don't like raids why not ater to those who don't like pvp, or crafting etc.

 

Seems to me its a better idea to please all the groups instead of just excluding raiders. If ppl don;t like raids, don;t do them.

This I don;t like raids so don;t ever include them seems to be one-sided and selfish.

 No. If they are not even targetting actual fans of the original IP, for DaoC fans, why should they cater to raiders which will vastly change whatever they have in place even more?!? All things are NOT equal.

You can cater to crafters, pvpers, soloers, casuals and a ton of others without vastly changing what is in place. Once you toss in raids, thats it, it all changes unless you take away the ONE thing almost all raiders focus on...shiney gear rewards for raiding.

Would you raid for a banner? for a costume? For a title?

If you say no, you are NOT willing to compromise at all, and thus have no room for trying to equate raiding to crafting. If you are, then go get a petition going showing these closed minded developers that there actually ARE different ways to implement old ideas that wont put the game into a spirial of never ending upward demand for gear and super uber god mobs to stay ahead of the stat curve.

Your argument is illogical. Crafters whine because they dont want to group but want the best items in the game. When did they compromise? When Paul Sage said crafting gives the best gear in the game and that actually with crafting you can ENHANCE gear from dungeons? Anyone can laugh when they're on their high horse

 

What's more illogical: People want an MMO to be engaging with other human players, or people who want to play an MMO as a single player game and still reap the rewards despite it being an MMO? To me it sounds much more logical to want to work with others in an MMO rather than isolate yourself.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 2:28:31 PM#73
Originally posted by Yukmarc
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Most games I now allow the player to have multiple builds. And even if it doesn't, when it somes to working with a group of people isn't it better to build a character the synergizes with the group. I know I know, why shouldn't you be able to do your own thing? That leads to the question, if you want to do your own thing for you why are you trying to do group based content.

Have you ever played a PnP RPG? Did you create the character that you wanted or something that the group wanted? Have you ever played a MUD? This is where MMO's came from. Nobody told me what I needed to play as a group in UO or EQ, I made what I wanted, I played the way I wanted to play and always had groups and guilds. Players telling me what I can and can't do based on a 3rd party "gear score" is crap and this is where the problem lies. After all, it IS an RPG.

That was back in the day when the shit was easy, just with 100x more grind, only selected people played mmorpg's, a lot of casuals, people didn't theorycraft or require much because they didn't need to. Failing was natural to a lot of the players, because everyone was new.

Lets now come to the present. What you describe will only happen in purely social and very easy games. Or just very low skill level. Like if there are very very easy dungeons, you can do whatever the fuck build you want in them. You can go and afk in wow LFR raids, nobody cares. That's what you are describing.

Go play starcraft 2 multiplayer and try your own build, like rush tanks. If you do it in the bottom league, yeah you will do alright, because you are playing against bad and casual players. If you do it in high leagues you will get wrecked and laughed at in 5 minutes.

Go play league of legends and try doing your own build. If you play low elo or pub games you will do ok. If you play against good players you will get absolutely stomped and insulted by your team for ruining their game.

Same for dota.

Same for shooters.

Same for absolutely any game with any kind of challenge. If you build wrong, you will fail. That's how the games work. Don't bring your stupid examples, they are embarrassing.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:32:09 PM#74
Originally posted by Hellidol
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

EVE comes to mind.....very successful by it own rights and in may peoples eyes....just not yours.

What is Zinemax trying to be -- The top little dog, or the top big dog?

 

I'm sorry but saying youre as successful as Eve or Tera or Dragon Nest isnt impressive. i dont see how anyone can dispute that WoW isnt the most successful MMORPG of all time, with Everquest having to be top 2, top 3 at worst.

 

To say raiding isnt a viable build structure for an MMO is false.

 

What's more illogical -- Wanting to engage yourself with a lot of human players in an MMO, or wanting to isolate yourself away from all other players in an MMO while still wanting the best gear?

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:33:44 PM#75
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 2:36:20 PM#76
Originally posted by Yukmarc
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Yukmarc

I have always thought that raids prevented people from playing the characters that they truly want to play. Instead, they create a character that other players want in the raids with them. So you end up with having your character spec'd exactly like the other guy instead of how YOU want it. I think it's a fantastic idea.

However....

Because of the RvR in this game, everyone will still be falling into that same trap.

Hey mister. Let me tell you what raids are for. Raids are for players who have more time than 5 hours a day to spend on the game, up to 15 hours. Raids are activities for players who play the game for a long time. I'm sorry, maybe we are just different people, but after I hit max level in a week after the game release (doesn't matter if its 1 day or 1 month), what will I do with that spec of yours if I don't have anything to use it on? Elaborate to me somehow and explain to me, if you play an mmorpg 5 hours a day, sometimes in the weekends even 10 hours. A YEAR straight. Lets say about 3000-4000 hours. Just a random estimate. What would you do all that time? Kill goblins? Do an easy dungeon over and over and over again? Do same battlegrounds 1000 hours straight? Have you played a themepark mmorpg for more than, lets say, half a year? I've played some for 5000-10000+ hours and I wouldn't ever even played a quarter of it without any raid content.

Hey Mister, first of all, let me say, that you sir, need to get out more. That being said, yes, I have played multiple MMO's for YEARS. However, they were UO and DOAC. I find your type of MMO kind of boring. So if you want to fill your years playing themeparks, go ahead and stick with the current crop of them. You will always have a WoW clone available to you, but it doesn't mean that EVERY MMO has to be like that.

No I don't need to get out more, I get out enough and it's not interesting, sorry, I live to play games.
 That said, if you find "my type of mmo" boring, then why are you talking about ESO? It's a themepark game. It's not going to be anything like UO. It's going to be like WoW/Swtor/whatever game like that. Did you just discover about it today, have you even read what the game is?
 No I don't have any WoW clone available to me, all of them are shit and don't clone WoW at all. And WoW has only gone downhill to appeal to dumber and newer people for many years already, you know, those who want bad builds be viable and stuff.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:38:29 PM#77
Originally posted by Hellidol
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

You do understand the the main guy developing this game is one of the guys that made the first most successful MMO out there, call UO.

 You do understand that not even Richard Garriott had full creative control over UO and most of it was done by Raph Koster right? No...otherwise you wouldnt have said that. Said so by Garriott himself, the man who funded and came up with the idea for UO and how it should play out. Thanks, come again. PS Garriott, Starr Long nor Rick Delashmit have anything to do with TESO.

Notice i said "ONE" of the guys....the point is your mentality of MMO's need raiding to work is flawed and one sided.

 1. How did I go from attacking the need for raiding, to defending it?

2. You clearly stated that the MAIN guy developing this game was one that made UO. None of the MAIN people working on TESO one was one of the four behind UO.

You seem hell bent on aruging for the sake of arguing.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 2:40:28 PM#78
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Muke

RAIDS are the fatal disease of MMOs

And yet no other MMOS have been as successful as WoW and Everquest were. Or for WoW's case, still is since 9 million subscribers at $15 a month.

 You mean like GW1 with its 6 million players, GW2 with its current 3 million. SWG was near EQ1s numbers, Eve as well.

But its OK, I understand that you want to claim that Raids were a success because a game had it...but then again, didnt the game also have non-raid content which then negates that idea.

So, why dont you tell me about a game that has NOTHING but raid content to prove raids are a reason for its success.

Do you know what game shits ON ALL OF THOSE. MAPLE STORY. MAPLE STORY HAS MORE PLAYERS THAN WORLD OF WARCRAFT UO DAOC SHITSTICKS all together. All games should copy maple story not shitcraft or shitwars because clearly it has the best elements an mmorpg can have.

Oh wait why am I comparing a free mmorpg to a subscription based mmorpg. Wait, why are you comparing guild wars to wow?

  knightaudit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/05
Posts: 243

Those are my thoughts, not yours

3/22/13 2:42:49 PM#79

Instead of attacking it for what it does not have .. look at what it does have

If your going to reinvent the wheel .. don't make it round to start with.

If they are going to make a new style of MMO they have to get rid of all the old style ideas first. Like Raiding, PVP ... or ideas like that ... Start new, fresh and what it meant to be a MMO. Time will tell what they have in mind and what they came up with.

  Murdus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 704

we own the sky

3/22/13 2:45:31 PM#80

"Gentlemen" doing XYZ Raid today! Please send a tell with your gear and stats, must have XYZ!

 

all over the place. I hate walking on my treadmill. That's why I don't want raids.

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