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Zenimax Online Studios | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 04/04/14)  | Pub:Bethesda Softworks
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151 posts found
  Ecoces

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 793

3/22/13 1:10:29 PM#41

people don't like raids because of the attitudes that come with it and because those people that demand raids usually try to force their agenda on everyone else and the developers.

 

I read in another post of yours(OP) you mention something to the extent of "whats wrong with having unique gear from raids as well as crafting". here is the problem with that logic is raiders actually will cry and moan if you got raid quality gear from crafting. ever play rift? do you know that in Alpha and Beta Trion said that you would be able to get the best gear in games from Raids, PVP or Crafting ... that the player would be able to get the best gear no matter their playstyle.

 

yeah that lasted till the first new raid zone came out with a bit better gear. then the "bads" or "casuals" as they are called by raiders wondered when crafting would get new recipes to make comparable gear. only to be shouted down by raiders saying "oh you shouldn't get gear as good as raiders if you don't raid".

 

but they did add where you could add Raid quality gear to crafting ..... if you got mats that dropped from raid instances lol.

 

that and also Raiders try to strong arm the developers in developing new content only for them. i have seen it too many times where if the developers work on a lower level zone the raiders complain, if the developers work on fluff things the raiders complain. hell if the developers work on anything that isn't the new script for that new boss for that new raid zone that only 1% of the population will ever see the raiders complain.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13172

3/22/13 1:15:14 PM#42
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by FromHell
[mod edit]

And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

 

Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

What nonsense.  Guild Wars did pretty well for itself without raiding.  So did Wizard 101 (max group size of 4).  So did EVE (no identifiable endgame to speak of).

Furthermore, raids aren't what made WoW successful.  The leveling content is what made WoW successful.  If all that WoW had was its endgame, it would have tanked, too.  And I don't merely mean not as successful as it has been; it would have been a commercial failure.

  User Deleted
3/22/13 1:21:59 PM#43
in the end the answer is pretty simple,because Zenimax dont know how to do it so its better to skip it. Is it better to skip it? is another question but hey its their first MMO. They are allready skipping things like PvP for the same reason,because they just dont know how. Compare that to Bethesda ,they pretty much knew what they were doing but this company doesnt ,theres no magic just lack of knowledge. Edit:maybe they will add it later.
  Hellidol

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 353

3/22/13 1:22:10 PM#44

TBH, you have to open your mind up, you have that (hate to say it but they set the standard for this type of gaming) wow mentaliity. Some of the first and most successful MMO's never had raiding, and before one of you small minded people say well they didnt survive because they didnt have raiding you are completely wrong. The older MMOs died off for many of reasons but because they never had raiding is not one of them. They died off because of poor programing, dated graphics, dated game play ect. Having external mass group fights is a good thing, it influences pvp and brings life back to RPKing.

Personally I am very happy they wont have raiding and the way they are going about this game. It stop simplicity while promoting creativity which IMO equals gaming interest and growth.

If raiding is something you like to do and you believe that primarly defeating large mobs on a large scale is fun then there are plenty MMO's out there that do just that, the best one IMO is wow.

 

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 1:22:45 PM#45
Originally posted by Ecoces

people don't like raids because of the attitudes that come with it and because those people that demand raids usually try to force their agenda on everyone else and the developers.

 

I read in another post of yours(OP) you mention something to the extent of "whats wrong with having unique gear from raids as well as crafting". here is the problem with that logic is raiders actually will cry and moan if you got raid quality gear from crafting. ever play rift? do you know that in Alpha and Beta Trion said that you would be able to get the best gear in games from Raids, PVP or Crafting ... that the player would be able to get the best gear no matter their playstyle.

 

yeah that lasted till the first new raid zone came out with a bit better gear. then the "bads" or "casuals" as they are called by raiders wondered when crafting would get new recipes to make comparable gear. only to be shouted down by raiders saying "oh you shouldn't get gear as good as raiders if you don't raid".

 

but they did add where you could add Raid quality gear to crafting ..... if you got mats that dropped from raid instances lol.

 

that and also Raiders try to strong arm the developers in developing new content only for them. i have seen it too many times where if the developers work on a lower level zone the raiders complain, if the developers work on fluff things the raiders complain. hell if the developers work on anything that isn't the new script for that new boss for that new raid zone that only 1% of the population will ever see the raiders complain.

I thought casuals and bads are, you know, casuals and bads. If you are shit in whatever game you play, you will be called out for it. You can go play Maple story and if you are a casual and bad, then you are a casual and baddie. Understand that. There's nothing wrong with being casual player, but don't expect people to treat you equally, when you have barely even tenth of the experience of the hardcore player.

I don't give a shit what gives what gear honestly, but it is just frustrating to see people cry about the elitism, elitism has nothing to do with raiding. I probably play god damn, I have no idea how much I play games overall, mostly 8-14 hours a day for years straight. Of course I am elitist in every game. Because I AM better player than the person who spends 3 hours a day. I am better than him at the game in every way, more skilled, more experienced and understand the mechanics 4-5x more.  I don't know, maybe you are just too young to understand it, but that's how entier world works. That's how real life is. A person who works 15 hours a day is better at the profession than you who work 8 hours a day. And if you ask your boss to get paid as much for same work as the guy who works 15 hours a day and you get insulted for that, is that elitism? Where is your brain kid.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 1:28:41 PM#46
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by FromHell
[mod edit]

And every game that has refused to have a real end-game has tanked compared to expectations. There is a reason Everquest and WoW are the kings of MMOs. And I guarantee you when Everquest Next comes out, despite Elder Scrolls having the more relevant fanbase, Everquest Next will have much more subscribers than ESO. Both are coming out this year.

 

Sorry, Cyrodill and crafting isnt an end-game that will make people play for 3+ months, and anyone who wants to complete all 3 factions will have done so within a couple months.

What nonsense.  Guild Wars did pretty well for itself without raiding.  So did Wizard 101 (max group size of 4).  So did EVE (no identifiable endgame to speak of).

Furthermore, raids aren't what made WoW successful.  The leveling content is what made WoW successful.  If all that WoW had was its endgame, it would have tanked, too.  And I don't merely mean not as successful as it has been; it would have been a commercial failure.

Eve is a sandbox game, in sandbox games players make endgame. There is no need for raid content if players can do whatever the fuck they want, even make hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to other players.

Wizard 101 and guild wars. I think you don't understand. A company like Zenimax doesn't want to do pretty well for itself. That's a god damn multimillion company, they are already doing FAR MORE THAN WELL. They want to be successful and make massive amounts of profit. Any indie game is doing well too. Tibia is doing well too right now, you know? Does Zenimax aim for the playerbase of the size of Tibia, Guild Wars 2, Wizard 101? Hell no.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 1:31:04 PM#47

No raiding means no money beyond the box price.

 

Just look at the GW2 polls that asked if people were spending money in the cash shop. 70% of the so called fans said no. an anyone call themelves a fan if they wont support the game?

  korent1991

Elite Member

Joined: 5/01/09
Posts: 1405

3/22/13 1:34:40 PM#48
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by rojo6934

if Zenimax adds raids and instanced dungeons to TESO they have to do a really good job with them so the game doesnt become a gear grinder like other mmos. Im not expecting that experience out of a TES mmo. So if tahts what we are going to get for a TES mmo (a dungeon threadmill progression game) ill be happy to stick to TES single player games.

 

Thats just me and i hope its not the case. Instead add persistent raiding or something.

See, but just play devils advocate on that point. Why should I HAVE to do other factions to get better gear? What if I'm satisfied questing wise after capping my level? Just like people in traditional MMORPGs feel like they are obligated to gear but dont want to Raid.

 

Why should I HAVE to craft to get the best gear in the game? You can play that on two major points advertised in the game.

 

Why CANT I raid to get equivalent gear or atleast unique gear? If the game is about choice, it doesnt sound like you have much choice -- Do all the factions, and craft and trade with other expertise crafters. Maybe World Bosses drop sexy loot, we have no ideas but World Bosses are/were confirmed.

simple. because they don't want you to raid in their game...

it's been overused and the glory days for raiding are over. If you're creating a new mmorpg you can't just give people the same old crap they've seen a thousand times and just pack it into somehting that "looks" different but plays exactly the same.

edit: now that I think about it again, raiding actually can be done in the game but it has to be rehauled because the form in which raiding exists now is just boring and it's not fun anymore after so many years of having it in exactly the same mechanics.

"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 1:35:44 PM#49
Originally posted by Vembumees

Wizard 101 and guild wars. I think you don't understand. A company like Zenimax doesn't want to do pretty well for itself. That's a god damn multimillion company, they are already doing FAR MORE THAN WELL. They want to be successful and make massive amounts of profit. Any indie game is doing well too. Tibia is doing well too right now, you know? Does Zenimax aim for the playerbase of the size of Tibia, Guild Wars 2, Wizard 101? Hell no.

 I already pointed out above, if they wanted to make massive amounts of profit, they wouldnt have used the crapfest DaoC game design that FEW in the MMORPG market know about, or like.

A game that had 250k players at a time when 3 other games had MORE is not a design to base yourself off of when there are now some 20 million MORE players that have since joined the market and have NO CONCEPTION of this closed of faction crap with funneled PvP content that the market as a whole did NOT WANT TO EMULATE because of the tiny box it paints the game into.

And it sure as hell is not targetting the IPs fanbase with that design either. Its targetting DaoC fans, and there are not enough of them to do what you are saying. the only hope they have of making a massive profit is if every single TES fan buys it and then quits because it isnt what they want. Then, they will get their quick payback on their initial investment from box sales and make their profit off the DaoC fans playing only to then go F2P shortly afterwards because the company wanted MORE.

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

  Thebrave246

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/07
Posts: 167

3/22/13 1:40:09 PM#50

[mod edit] Raids add longevity, more team work and more fun to the game, rather then doing the dungeons. I know that in my gaming life, I have played PLENTY of mmorpgs and the ones with raids almost ALWAYS are better then the ones without. Sure there are some and they  are popular and pretty successful without the raids, but trust me when I say raiding is good for the community, good for longevity of the game, and is a fun activity to do with 8, 16, or even 32 players. I miss the good old large raiding in Everquest and EQ2, even in SWTOR the raids were ok for a little while, just wish there were more of them and stuff like that. Raids bring organization, and guild life to the game.

 

These 4-player dungeons just seem like a quick fix for people who want to do raids and team work and guild events and they DO NOT last for a long time, they are pretty short compared to raids and they, in the end, just seem like a quick fix for people who want raids.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 1:41:51 PM#51
Originally posted by TalulaRose

No raiding means no money beyond the box price.

 

Just look at the GW2 polls that asked if people were spending money in the cash shop. 70% of the so called fans said no. an anyone call themelves a fan if they wont support the game?

 70% not buying means 30% is...30% of 3 million people is 900,000.

If 900k spend just $10 a month thats 9,000,000 per month (equal to 600k subs), 108,000,000 per year.

And THAT is why you people cannot grasp how companies like Nexon, Perfect World, NCsoft and so many other F2P companies are taking over the market...they make profits far beyond subscription based companies outside of Blizzard. Jesus, Nexon spent somewhere around 400 MILLION dollars in buying out or investing in other companies last year, that is INSANE.

  Ecoces

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 793

3/22/13 1:42:12 PM#52
Originally posted by Vembumees
Originally posted by Ecoces

people don't like raids because of the attitudes that come with it and because those people that demand raids usually try to force their agenda on everyone else and the developers.

 

I read in another post of yours(OP) you mention something to the extent of "whats wrong with having unique gear from raids as well as crafting". here is the problem with that logic is raiders actually will cry and moan if you got raid quality gear from crafting. ever play rift? do you know that in Alpha and Beta Trion said that you would be able to get the best gear in games from Raids, PVP or Crafting ... that the player would be able to get the best gear no matter their playstyle.

 

yeah that lasted till the first new raid zone came out with a bit better gear. then the "bads" or "casuals" as they are called by raiders wondered when crafting would get new recipes to make comparable gear. only to be shouted down by raiders saying "oh you shouldn't get gear as good as raiders if you don't raid".

 

but they did add where you could add Raid quality gear to crafting ..... if you got mats that dropped from raid instances lol.

 

that and also Raiders try to strong arm the developers in developing new content only for them. i have seen it too many times where if the developers work on a lower level zone the raiders complain, if the developers work on fluff things the raiders complain. hell if the developers work on anything that isn't the new script for that new boss for that new raid zone that only 1% of the population will ever see the raiders complain.

I thought casuals and bads are, you know, casuals and bads. If you are shit in whatever game you play, you will be called out for it. You can go play Maple story and if you are a casual and bad, then you are a casual and baddie. Understand that. There's nothing wrong with being casual player, but don't expect people to treat you equally, when you have barely even tenth of the experience of the hardcore player.

I don't give a shit what gives what gear honestly, but it is just frustrating to see people cry about the elitism, elitism has nothing to do with raiding. I probably play god damn, I have no idea how much I play games overall, mostly 8-14 hours a day for years straight. Of course I am elitist in every game. Because I AM better player than the person who spends 3 hours a day. I am better than him at the game in every way, more skilled, more experienced and understand the mechanics 4-5x more.  I don't know, maybe you are just too young to understand it, but that's how entier world works. That's how real life is. A person who works 15 hours a day is better at the profession than you who work 8 hours a day. And if you ask your boss to get paid as much for same work as the guy who works 15 hours a day and you get insulted for that, is that elitism? Where is your brain kid.

thanks for proving my point! as for elitist been there done that got the Tshirt you see you aren't talking to some casual, i have done the raiding, i raided with some of the best in EQ, the guild i was apart of had many world firsts in EQ2(go look up Ne Plus Ultra)

 

as for the kid comment, im 36 years old, i have pubic hairs almost as old as you child.

 

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 1:43:55 PM#53
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by hMJem

Much like how hardcore TES fans wanted 1st person even though traditional MMO fans didnt care, it was added in because it doesnt hurt anyone.

 No.

1st person is not equal to raids. Your argument is invalid. Raids hurt everyone because raiders all want to raid for gear causing a massive imbalance in the playerbase and a downward spiral of the game in all aspects from PvE to PvP and even greatly effects future content which must be curned out just for raiders causing an even greater imbalance because that content must be made vastly harder placing it out of reach of everyone else.

1st person however harms nobody because the choice of using or not using effects none.

Crafting gives the best gear in Elder Scrolls Online from what we've been told several times. Now, I dont have to craft. I really dont. That just means unless someone gifts me a super sexy item, I'm not getting the best gear in the game, which is my choice. Why cant people be realistic like that? Just because you buy a game doesnt mean you should instantly get all the content and best gear in the game.

 

I dont have to do the extra two factions quests, but there is a chance I'll get upgrades and such from that. It's my choice. I shouldnt whine "GM! SUMMON ME THE BEST GEAR AND SUCH IN THE GAME! I BOUGHT YOUR GAME WTF!"

 

"Elitists" as you wish to call them typically are more realistic than people who wanted the game delayed for 1st person.

  Vembumees

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/13
Posts: 86

3/22/13 1:44:42 PM#54
Originally posted by JasonJ

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

Screenshot it and save it please so you could read it in 2014 and delete it quickly.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 1:46:28 PM#55
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by TalulaRose

No raiding means no money beyond the box price.

 

Just look at the GW2 polls that asked if people were spending money in the cash shop. 70% of the so called fans said no. an anyone call themelves a fan if they wont support the game?

 70% not buying means 30% is...30% of 3 million people is 900,000.

If 900k spend just $10 a month thats 9,000,000 per month (equal to 600k subs), 108,000,000 per year.

And THAT is why you people cannot grasp how companies like Nexon, Perfect World, NCsoft and so many other F2P companies are taking over the market...they make profits far beyond subscription based companies outside of Blizzard. Jesus, Nexon spent somewhere around 400 MILLION dollars in buying out or investing in other companies last year, that is INSANE.

They aren't paying $10 a month because if they were than it would be just like a subscription based game. And we all know that many of the GW2 fans are anti subscription. They spen $10 once, then nothing.

 

PW games are much less quality then sub-based games. Thats just plain obvious and why they aren't popular in the NA market.

  Hellidol

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 353

3/22/13 1:48:18 PM#56
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Vembumees

Wizard 101 and guild wars. I think you don't understand. A company like Zenimax doesn't want to do pretty well for itself. That's a god damn multimillion company, they are already doing FAR MORE THAN WELL. They want to be successful and make massive amounts of profit. Any indie game is doing well too. Tibia is doing well too right now, you know? Does Zenimax aim for the playerbase of the size of Tibia, Guild Wars 2, Wizard 101? Hell no.

 I already pointed out above, if they wanted to make massive amounts of profit, they wouldnt have used the crapfest DaoC game design that FEW in the MMORPG market know about, or like.

A game that had 250k players at a time when 3 other games had MORE is not a design to base yourself off of when there are now some 20 million MORE players that have since joined the market and have NO CONCEPTION of this closed of faction crap with funneled PvP content that the market as a whole did NOT WANT TO EMULATE because of the tiny box it paints the game into.

And it sure as hell is not targetting the IPs fanbase with that design either. Its targetting DaoC fans, and there are not enough of them to do what you are saying. the only hope they have of making a massive profit is if every single TES fan buys it and then quits because it isnt what they want. Then, they will get their quick payback on their initial investment from box sales and make their profit off the DaoC fans playing only to then go F2P shortly afterwards because the company wanted MORE.

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 1:49:53 PM#57
Originally posted by hMJem

"Elitists" as you wish to call them typically are more realistic than people who wanted the game delayed for 1st person.

 No, elitites equate the time it takes to make a camera adjustment to making raid content...

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 1:53:23 PM#58
Originally posted by Hellidol

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

Actually, it shows the limits of THIER creativity for going back and using a 13+ year old idea that nobody else wanted because of its design flaws...and their lack of being able to come up with anything original, which you dont see from other designers that have been making MMOs for as long...every single one of them, even the ones I CANT STAND like Raph Koster at least created 3 very DIFFERENT designs and new ideas.

  Hellidol

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 353

3/22/13 2:03:58 PM#59
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

Actually, it shows the limits of THIER creativity for going back and using a 13+ year old idea that nobody else wanted because of its design flaws...and their lack of being able to come up with anything original, which you dont see from other designers that have been making MMOs for as long...every single one of them, even the ones I CANT STAND like Raph Koster at least created 3 very DIFFERENT designs and new ideas.

You do understand the the main guy developing this game is one of the guys that made the first most successful MMO out there, call UO. People still love that game even tho it hurts my eyes because of the dated graphics and programming. You are just wrong when you say raiding has to be in a MMO or it will fail. WoW just did it right first and continues to for that type of game play. This game will capitalize on what other games in the past couldn't because of technology at that time. You will see a much larger, more complete gamer come from this, those that want end game gear have to be much more creavite inorder to get it, they simply cant raid their way to the top which is boring and very simple. DoCa, EVE, UO, Shadowbane all great games with shitty programming and shitty graphics. This game could have everything those games wanted to do with the visuals to get it done.

  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

3/22/13 2:05:20 PM#60
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Hellidol

Either way, no amount of raids is going to give them the profits they are expecting. DaoCs game design will keep the millions they are expecting away.

This shows the limits of your creativity, this game just isnt for you, wow is much more simple and seems the game for you.

Actually, it shows the limits of THIER creativity for going back and using a 13+ year old idea that nobody else wanted because of its design flaws...and their lack of being able to come up with anything original, which you dont see from other designers that have been making MMOs for as long...every single one of them, even the ones I CANT STAND like Raph Koster at least created 3 very DIFFERENT designs and new ideas.

They should remove dungeons, used in the old MMOs as well. Take out crafting as well, oh ya...pvp, another old mechanic. Classes, yup...take that out. Abilites, another pesky mechanic used in the games of old.

 

Why people just admit that they have a misguided personal grudge against raids because they envy the items obtained from raids but just don't want to put in the effort to get them.

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