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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » POLL: Cross faction coop and the effect on AvA and "Faction Pride"

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87 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 2:21:49 PM#41
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by Distopia
Why do you need constraining rules to have faction pride?

For the same reason you need any rules at all. Rules dictate behavior.

SWG had open factions yet still had plenty of faction pride. I'd say it rivaled what I saw in DAOC, maybe even surpased it. I also felt the fact that you were allowed to know your enemy, fueled much greater rivalries between the factions. This just looks like sour grapes over being on the losing side of an outcome to me.

For SWG, I'll have to take your word for it. I played the game for several months, but I never experienced a vast scope of faction pride during my time there. I do agree that knowing your enemy fuels a greater rivalry, as it was in DAoC.

To be fair I can only comment toward Bloodfin servers PVP environment during the pre-cu and CU eras. Other servers could have had less or little.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1130

3/20/13 2:24:26 PM#42
I have a hard time seeing why this even matters for AvA. Since there's only one server (the mega-server), you surely were going to be able to roll all three factions on a single account. You just wouldn't be able to join a AvA instance on one faction that you already joined on a different faction. Anybody who wanted to experience all 3 factions already could; you just couldn't do it on a single character. So now it'll be a little more convenient for those who wanted to see everything. So? AvA will thrive or fail based on its own design not on how many PvE zones you can play in.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 2:24:58 PM#43
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is a line between hardcore and mid core. ESO was on its way to being hardcore and getting in line with the few. In one move they removed their hardcore title. Now you have factions talking and playing together. People telling friends about their AvA raid plans and people spying. Red is Dead is a big part of faction pride and now its lets hug it out. I get some compermise was needed here but they took it to far. 

What would have been better is if every town, outpost and city was a place to take out the other factions NPCs like a giant open world PvE pig out. Raiding capitial cities to take out the leader in a 40 man boss. Something that could have added to faction pride. This game just went carebear. We will see if they can fix this or if it stays the course. Sad, very sad.

I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

"know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

  funcon

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/12
Posts: 245

3/20/13 2:27:10 PM#44
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by rygard49

Obviously the announced faction unlocks at level 50 is a hot topic amongst the PvP community. What do you all think, is faction pride dead now? Will this decision have no effect at all? Will faction pride have as big an effect on AvA as some think it will?

I heartily disagree with the decision to open up the borders at level 50. I feel that it was pandering, that it goes against the original design that attracted me to the game, and that it will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the faction pride they were seeking to foster. All for the sake of the PvE players.

However, I also don't think it necessarily destroys the potential for AvA to be great feature. It remains to be seen what the long term consequences of this decision will be.

It's great for RP's and PVE's, now we have two more fation areas to explore even though they are instanced versions. The PVP's can go there but only for PVE lol and they won't see the otrher faction.

PVE in other faction areas and our own fation area plus PVE in Cyrodiil = win for PVE's.

This game sounds like its gonna be terribly instanced. This destroys immersion and the M for massive. When will devs learn that 98% of players want open, seamless, non-instanced worlds? Dungeons, battle grounds and raids should be the only things instanced. IMHO, this game is just going to be another huge failure like SW:TOR is. All hype, then huge disappointment when players are 1 month in and find the game to be terrible.

  Laeesh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 89

3/20/13 2:28:14 PM#45
it´s a fact, that 50+ is able to cross group up? Did not read that *dumb*

  DavisFlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2427

3/20/13 2:29:40 PM#46
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.
  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 2:31:27 PM#47
Originally posted by meddyck
I have a hard time seeing why this even matters for AvA. Since there's only one server (the mega-server), you surely were going to be able to roll all three factions on a single account. You just wouldn't be able to join a AvA instance on one faction that you already joined on a different faction. Anybody who wanted to experience all 3 factions already could; you just couldn't do it on a single character. So now it'll be a little more convenient for those who wanted to see everything. So? AvA will thrive or fail based on its own design not on how many PvE zones you can play in.

Because before this was watered down you would never see someone from the same conflict as yourself. Each faction would need to pick a conflict and that was your war. It was like picking a server in any other MMO. Switching conflicts is very hard to do, like switching servers in any other game. This is how DAoC did it and it rocked. No game I have played in 15 years has matched faction pride and thats what drove people to play RvR. If your going to make a game have DAoC RvR you better do it right. I get other games had great PvP like SWG but ESO was not trying to copy that model. If they were I think they should stick to what made that game work. As MMOs tend to be magic and messing with core elelments really breaks games. 

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 2:34:25 PM#48
Originally posted by DavisFlight
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

 This thread is starting to sound like a political thread.

Only our pride is real pride.

Sorry, to say that the ONLY game that had any players experience "pride" is DaoC isnt even laughable at best.

  User Deleted
3/20/13 2:36:03 PM#49
Originally posted by hMJem
If you guys want a truly sandbox experience, why not play Everquest Next then? They've already said it's going to be the largest sandbox MMO of all time, and barring delays, this and EQ-Next are set to release this year.

This.

I was sad when I heard about this ... but there will be CU for my faction pride fix and EQ next for my sandbox needs.

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 2:38:29 PM#50
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by DavisFlight
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

 This thread is starting to sound like a political thread.

Only our pride is real pride.

Sorry, to say that the ONLY game that had any players experience "pride" is DaoC isnt even laughable at best.

Not saying it was the only game that did, saying they did it best.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 2:39:17 PM#51
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia

I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

"know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

I'm still perplexed how you dictate this as any more carebear than the orginal design. This game was centered around segregated PVP from the start. I do not see how this changes that for better or worse, as it doesn't change the PVP design what so ever.

About spying... Like it or not that's your choice, I still hold to the opinion this changes nothing toward that.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 2:40:09 PM#52
Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
Originally posted by hMJem
If you guys want a truly sandbox experience, why not play Everquest Next then? They've already said it's going to be the largest sandbox MMO of all time, and barring delays, this and EQ-Next are set to release this year.

This.

I was sad when I heard about this ... but there will be CU for my faction pride fix and EQ next for my sandbox needs.

Only if CU had some PvE. Not even a open world dungeon to chill in. So what I sub 2 games, one for PvP and one for PvE? No thanks.

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 2:42:26 PM#53
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia

I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

"know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

I'm still perplexed how you dictate this as any more carebear than the orginal design. This game was centered around segregated PVP from the start. I do not see how this changes that for better or worse, as it doesn't change the PVP design what so ever.

About spying... Like it or not that's your choice, I still hold to the opinion this changes nothing toward that.

If you did not play DAoC in its prime you just wont get it. I have yet to see a hardcore DAoC fan say they are ok with this change. Its sad, my fav RPG of all time is TES and my fav MMO was DAoC. This was going to be epic.

  Xsorus

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/20/05
Posts: 157

3/20/13 2:44:44 PM#54
Originally posted by meddyck
I have a hard time seeing why this even matters for AvA. Since there's only one server (the mega-server), you surely were going to be able to roll all three factions on a single account. You just wouldn't be able to join a AvA instance on one faction that you already joined on a different faction. Anybody who wanted to experience all 3 factions already could; you just couldn't do it on a single character. So now it'll be a little more convenient for those who wanted to see everything. So? AvA will thrive or fail based on its own design not on how many PvE zones you can play in.

 

Meddyck is right in this instance, Playing Midgard I had the oppurtunity to play on aonther Realm anytime I wanted in DAOC...The reason I disliked Hibs/Albs had little to do with the ability to play their content.

You want Faction pride in a game? Have Message Boards that aren't over Moderated like Guild Wars 2.

I don't think a lot of people realize how important Vnboards played into Faction Pride in Early DAOC, They weren't super Moderated, and you could talk a ton of shit to opposing side....This lead to many many Rivalaries.

So that would be my suggestion, have forums, don't over mod them down, and let players Troll One another if you want to make people hate the opposing faction.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos

Guild Wars 2 Ranger Video's

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 2:48:29 PM#55
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by DavisFlight
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

 This thread is starting to sound like a political thread.

Only our pride is real pride.

Sorry, to say that the ONLY game that had any players experience "pride" is DaoC isnt even laughable at best.

Not saying it was the only game that did, saying they did it best.

 I was not replying to you. I was clearly replying to the person attempting to say the game cannot have real pride with this change that really doesnt change anything in terms of it being open world and faction interchangable. The game is still just like DaoC with a piss poor attempt to make it seem more open. It still has the invisible walls, it still has gated themepark PvP and it still has forced race/factions created to hold players hands so they dont get confused as to who the enemy is.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 2:55:06 PM#56
Originally posted by DavisFlight
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

So are you saying DAOC was the only game where faction pride existed? You do realize many PVP guilds started out in DAOC right? Many moved on to other games after TOA, both friend and foe and kept those rivalries intact. Faction pride is something most who played DAOC walked away with, and still carry with them when playing any game, MMO or not...

Some of you are just too hung up on mechanics dictating your playstyle, but so much so that arbitrary circumstance dictates how you can play, or what you take pride in? You're saying that because X exists Y can't exist, yet X is connected to Z in this instance not Y.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

3/20/13 3:02:25 PM#57
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by DavisFlight
I love how people who have never experienced faction pride are pretending they know anything about it. This will ruin it.

So are you saying DAOC was the only game where faction pride existed? You do realize many PVP guilds started out in DAOC right? Many moved on to other games after TOA, both friend and foe and kept those rivalries intact. Faction pride is something most who played DAOC walked away with, and still carry with them when playing any game, MMO or not...

Some of you are just too hung up on mechanics dictating your playstyle, but so much so that arbitrary circumstance dictates how you can play, or what you take pride in? You're saying that because X exists Y can't exist, yet X is connected to Z in this instance not Y.

Yes, you start changing enough you no longer have the model you started with. Chemistry is a science you cant mess with unless you want a different product. One little element added and you have something different. You go from magic to poison. If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done. Then they should have picked up the DAoC RvR model and kept it as it was and added the modern bells like VO etc. Mess with PvE in any way you want but keep what made DAoC work intact. Now... we dont know what we will get. Its a random element that messes with the chemistry of DAoCs faction pride that drove RvR. Not a smart move IMO.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/20/13 3:14:50 PM#58
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

 If they wanted to copy the best 3 faction PvP and the best faction pride ever done.

 And as can be plainly seen by the ENTIRE GENRE...NOBOY wanted to, because it wasnt that good and it was far too limiting in game design. The only people interested in that small tiny box of limitations are the very same people that made DaoC.

Themepark PvE is bad enough, themepark PvP is the WORST idea in the history of the genre and the only players that want it are SOME of the 250k that played it and had limited MMO experience before DaoC. Personally, I was glad I left the game before Hibernia players had a fit and did their sit in protests about the crapfest the game was.

Seriously, how many games were so bad that its own players protested IN GAME about it?

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/20/13 3:15:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia

I can't agree with anything you said here, Eve is hardcore ( if we should even apply that term to games) daoc was not, it was midcore (as you put it) comparatively. Factions talking and playing together should have no dictation over the intensity of PVP, as for the most part these two systems are aimed at two completely different players(end game PVE and end-game PVP).

Spying would be no harder between friends with or without the option to speak in game. I also find it odd that someone who is talking about  hardcore (one of the few) etc.. Is complaining about spying in PVP games, that's part of the thrill.

"know your enemy", is an important part of warfare.

Real life is full of cheating and life not being fair. I get enough of that there. When I play my video games I like fair play. Who wins a PvP fight should be about skill not gear score. DAoC did have some people who paided for a 2nd account to be able to spy, now you just need to get to level 50 and make a few friends. Sorry but spying is not hardcore its just cheating and anything that makes it easier to cheat should not be an option in a game. I am sure EVE is awesome but ESO is not using the EVE model for their game. ESO is and is now breaking what made that work so well. My hats off to the carebears. Never thought they would take a 180 on this. Few of us came up with ideas that could give both sides what they wanted without messing things up but thats not what happened. My guess is they will lose a lot of the DAoC fans who were looking forward to this game.

I'm still perplexed how you dictate this as any more carebear than the orginal design. This game was centered around segregated PVP from the start. I do not see how this changes that for better or worse, as it doesn't change the PVP design what so ever.

About spying... Like it or not that's your choice, I still hold to the opinion this changes nothing toward that.

If you did not play DAoC in its prime you just wont get it. I have yet to see a hardcore DAoC fan say they are ok with this change. Its sad, my fav RPG of all time is TES and my fav MMO was DAoC. This was going to be epic.

How do you know who is/was a hardcore DAOC fan or not?  It was my first MMO of course I'm a fan of it. I quit in 03, I'd say that was during it's prime. this is an arbitrary thing compared to all that was part of the DAOC formula, the races, the armor, are all still unique to alliance, you will never see them outside of PVP until lvl 50, at 50 it's optional to go to the other side or not, like it was in DAOC (Mordred).

Anyway... My point was, TESO has the same PVP set up it had from the start. This doesn't make it any less/more carebear.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Roguewiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 495

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

3/20/13 3:18:11 PM#60

There is nothing inherently wrong with this, and honestly I'm all for it.  My friends and I typically have different opinions on which sides to play on.  Even more so when there are 3 factions with different races.  One of my friends has a different view of what good and evil are, so to him, a side with Dark Elves or Orcs would be "evil".  He also leans heavily towards Humans.  Being able to group up and do some of the upper end dungeons with each other would be nice.

However, I'd say this:  Cross-Faction talking should be limited to certain zones.  In RVR areas, or in PvP in general, it shouldn't be allowed.

I be Raq, destroyer of game balance!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

Trying to beat Dark Souls without using magic is like having a naked hot blond give you a root canal every day; painful and enjoyable at the same time.

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