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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » A Very Simple Solution...

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229 posts found
  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1185

3/15/13 6:30:13 PM#181
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by jimdandy26

You mean the hype that all says make a character and fight for your faction? You honestly believe that you have a right to feel agrieved because you cannot choose to betray said factions? Seriously?

 

I just join one of my choosing that isn't locked into my racial choice. Really, why is is such a hard thing to understand. And where the fuck does your comment about betraying a faction come from? If you mean my Orc example you obviously didn't get the point. The point was, he doesn't want to fight for the Breton lord and so wouldn't join that faction. You cannot betray ANY faction in the game because you don't have any CHOICE in which faction to choose. Your race dictates that. My point was that I wan't to make an Orc that fights against that faction but would belog to a faction of his choice, it would just be another faction.

And while it may mean that to you, thats a pretty foolish stance to take. Redguard alone shows that you should not be thinking in those sorts of absolute terms at all. I mean in that game you were not even allowed to create your own character. I mean thats like me plastering every single Star Wars game that comes out because to me Star Wars means space opera! Its absurd.

Redguard...the game is universally disliked, even by the developers. Not really a winning point to make about why following the same forced gameplay is a good idea.

Universally disliked?

IGN gave it 7/10, overall = good.

Gamespot score 8.1/10, User score 8.2.

GameFAQS gave it 8.0, 7.3 and 7.8.

Even the TES wiki gave it a favourable review.

 

So no, it is not universally disliked. It's also a winning point to try something different. Your going to have to post links about devs disliking the game.

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

3/15/13 11:31:57 PM#182

FUCKING ANNOYING.

 

No this isnt a simple fix,  The devs have a vision and I hope like hell they stick to it.

When this game releases (or goes beta), it will be subject to the judgement of the masses.  Until then, STFU.

So many "good idea fairies" around here.   If your opinion meant a damn, you would be paid to express it.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

3/16/13 1:09:10 PM#183
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by rygard49

I see how you're coming to your conclusion. You're saying that you have 3 choices of faction, but because you only want to play one race that really means that you have no choice at all. But what you're really saying is:

"I've already made my choice, therefore I have nothing left to choose."

I get your problem, that being if you only want to be one race then the choice of faction is made for you and the rest of the land is locked away as a result, but you can't ignore that you had to make a meaningful choice to even get to this point.

It's going to vary from gamer to gamer whether or not they feel they've been given a choice or not based on their perspective.

Glad someone actually gets my point, thanks.

But I wish I did have something left to choose. I wish I could create a Breton and choose which faction to fight for. And I wish, if I din't want to join the fight I didn't have to. Because if their goal in their design is to creat faction pride, well it doesn't do it for me. Faction pride for me would be seeing their side of the story and then choosing to fight for their cause if I want to do so.

And I wish, when I creat an Orc, I wouldn't be forced to have the same faction choice dictated to me. I wish i could play the Orc as i want to which is to fight against the truce with the Bretons and redguards because I see it as a weakness and against the teaching of Malakath. An Orc making peaceful bargains against the enemy is the ultimate sign of submisson.

But until the game releases more information or I get to try it out in Beta then I am really only left with the conclusion I have made so far. It might be a great game I don't know. But what I do know is that it will ahve to be pretty fucking amazing to get me to play for a faction I don't like or with a race I have never wanted to play in any TES game to date.

You're getting very close with your statements to what I believe is the underlying  theme for many of you who are not happy with what you have read about the game's development so far: You want the sort of libertarian anarchy that one typically finds at the sandbox end of the MMORPG continuum.

The main problem for you and those who feel strongly about limitless individual choices as you do, is that this game is being developed somewhere in the middle of the spectrum with some sandbox influences to be sure, but leaning heavily in the other direction.

In WOW if you're an Orc, you're with the Horde--no if ands or buts. In SWTOR if you're a Twilek, you're Republic. In Rift, if you're a High Elf, you're a Guardian. In DaoC if you're an Elf, you're with Hibernia. This game is just following along the lines of those design choices where factions are comprised of a couple of races unique to a faction.

Heck, back in the old days, even WOW additionally locked profressions to a side: Pladins were originally Alliance only and Shaman was the Horde's unique class. That was also the case in DAoC where a Theurgist, for example, was Albion only. In WAR, they did it to a lesser extent with classes of different names but almost exact duplicates...I'll leave the discussion of how this messes with the perception of PVP balance for another day....

The point though is that practically every MMO except the ones that emphasize lack of central control, anarchy... a libertarian paradise, go way out of their way to fhave unique sides with their own distinct flavor.

Same thing here. You are race "x"? You MUST belong to faction "y". Hard to be an underground resistance fighter in that environment... I get that this particualr playstyle choice is not available. But this will be the TESO way....which is exactly the same way as countles other themepark MMOs.

And from having played all of those I mentioned, I don't really remember any comments (although I'm sure there must have been spme I missed) from a disgruntled human who wanted to work for the Horde. That is typically not an issue at all...except here it seems. 

Also....one thing a lot of people don't seem to get about RvR is that it's not "light" PVP, it's "Kill that Alien bastard on sight" PVP, where "red is dead" and all those other hard-core pvp cliches will be the way. You CAN choose to not fight if you don't want to...just don't try that in Cyrodiil.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 1:20:07 PM#184
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by rygard49

I see how you're coming to your conclusion. You're saying that you have 3 choices of faction, but because you only want to play one race that really means that you have no choice at all. But what you're really saying is:

"I've already made my choice, therefore I have nothing left to choose."

I get your problem, that being if you only want to be one race then the choice of faction is made for you and the rest of the land is locked away as a result, but you can't ignore that you had to make a meaningful choice to even get to this point.

It's going to vary from gamer to gamer whether or not they feel they've been given a choice or not based on their perspective.

Glad someone actually gets my point, thanks.

But I wish I did have something left to choose. I wish I could create a Breton and choose which faction to fight for. And I wish, if I din't want to join the fight I didn't have to. Because if their goal in their design is to creat faction pride, well it doesn't do it for me. Faction pride for me would be seeing their side of the story and then choosing to fight for their cause if I want to do so.

And I wish, when I creat an Orc, I wouldn't be forced to have the same faction choice dictated to me. I wish i could play the Orc as i want to which is to fight against the truce with the Bretons and redguards because I see it as a weakness and against the teaching of Malakath. An Orc making peaceful bargains against the enemy is the ultimate sign of submisson.

But until the game releases more information or I get to try it out in Beta then I am really only left with the conclusion I have made so far. It might be a great game I don't know. But what I do know is that it will ahve to be pretty fucking amazing to get me to play for a faction I don't like or with a race I have never wanted to play in any TES game to date.

You're getting very close with your statements to what I believe is the underlying  theme for many of you who are not happy with what you have read about the game's development so far: You want the sort of libertarian anarchy that one typically finds at the sandbox end of the MMORPG continuum.

The main problem for you and those who feel strongly about limitless individual choices as you do, is that this game is being developed somewhere in the middle of the spectrum with some sandbox influences to be sure, but leaning heavily in the other direction.

In WOW if you're an Orc, you're with the Horde--no if ands or buts. In SWTOR if you're a Twilek, you're Republic. In Rift, if you're a High Elf, you're a Guardian. In DaoC if you're an Elf, you're with Hibernia. This game is just following along the lines of those design choices where factions are comprised of a couple of races unique to a faction.

Heck, back in the old days, even WOW additionally locked profressions to a side: Pladins were originally Alliance only and Shaman was the Horde's unique class. That was also the case in DAoC where a Theurgist, for example, was Albion only. In WAR, they did it to a lesser extent with classes of different names but almost exact duplicates...I'll leave the discussion of how this messes with the perception of PVP balance for another day....

The point though is that practically every MMO except the ones that emphasize lack of central control, anarchy... a libertarian paradise, go way out of their way to fhave unique sides with their own distinct flavor.

Same thing here. You are race "x"? You MUST belong to faction "y". Hard to be an underground resistance fighter in that environment... I get that this particualr playstyle choice is not available. But this will be the TESO way....which is exactly the same way as countles other themepark MMOs.

And from having played all of those I mentioned, I don't really remember any comments (although I'm sure there must have been spme I missed) from a disgruntled human who wanted to work for the Horde. That is typically not an issue at all...except here it seems. 

Also....one thing a lot of people don't seem to get about RvR is that it's not "light" PVP, it's "Kill that Alien bastard on sight" PVP, where "red is dead" and all those other hard-core pvp cliches will be the way. You CAN choose to not fight if you don't want to...just don't try that in Cyrodiil.

That or... people want to be able to pick the race they want to play and still be able to play with friends/guildies/family members that have chosen a race outside of the faction that you are locked to.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

3/16/13 1:23:03 PM#185
Originally posted by colddog04

That or... people want to be able to pick the race they want to play and still be able to play with friends/guildies/family members that have chosen a race outside of the faction that you are locked to.

 Yup. You have to pre-plan here and make a group decission.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 1:27:52 PM#186
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by colddog04

That or... people want to be able to pick the race they want to play and still be able to play with friends/guildies/family members that have chosen a race outside of the faction that you are locked to.

 Yup. You have to pre-plan here and make a group decission.

And with 25ish different people involved, it feels extremely restictive. Imagine what large guilds are going to feel like. I mean, RvR is fairly central to the game the way they've explained it. You would think that they would want to attract some of those guilds that are RvR fans.

 

Ok everyone, you can pick from 3 races!

 

Or worse yet, my friend already picked a race and has gotten to max level. He invites me to play the game and tells me I actually can only choose from 3 races to play with him. Hmm... ok, cool. I guess. Seems strange, but ok, I'll pick Argonian, Dunmer or Nord even though I don't like any of them. 

 

Sounds like shitty design to me, but obviously others don't feel the same way.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

3/16/13 1:31:34 PM#187
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by colddog04

That or... people want to be able to pick the race they want to play and still be able to play with friends/guildies/family members that have chosen a race outside of the faction that you are locked to.

 Yup. You have to pre-plan here and make a group decission.

And with 25ish different people involved, it feels extremely restictive. Imagine what large guilds are going to feel like. I mean, RvR is fairly central to the game the way they've explained it. You would think that they would want to attract some of those guilds that are RvR fans.

 

Ok everyone, you can pick from 3 races!

 

Or worse yet, my friend already picked a race and has gotten to max level. He invites me to play the game and tells me I actually can only choose from 3 races to play with him. Hmm... ok, cool. I guess. Seems strange, but ok, I'll pick Argonian, Dunmer or Nord even though I don't like any of them. 

 

Sounds like shitty design to me, but obviously others don't feel the same way.

Yeah. Group dynamics and decission making can be fun can't it? Same in Rift...WOW.... SWTOR...etc., etc...

Personally, in DAoC I wanted to be an elf in Hibernia, but I was in the minority so we went Albion...it's called majority rule and compromising.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 1:43:07 PM#188
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by colddog04

That or... people want to be able to pick the race they want to play and still be able to play with friends/guildies/family members that have chosen a race outside of the faction that you are locked to.

 Yup. You have to pre-plan here and make a group decission.

And with 25ish different people involved, it feels extremely restictive. Imagine what large guilds are going to feel like. I mean, RvR is fairly central to the game the way they've explained it. You would think that they would want to attract some of those guilds that are RvR fans.

 

Ok everyone, you can pick from 3 races!

 

Or worse yet, my friend already picked a race and has gotten to max level. He invites me to play the game and tells me I actually can only choose from 3 races to play with him. Hmm... ok, cool. I guess. Seems strange, but ok, I'll pick Argonian, Dunmer or Nord even though I don't like any of them. 

 

Sounds like shitty design to me, but obviously others don't feel the same way.

Yeah. Group dynamics and decission making can be fun can't it? Same in Rift...WOW.... SWTOR...etc., etc...

Personally, in DAoC I wanted to be an elf in Hibernia, but I was in the minority so we went Albion...it's called majority rule and compromising.

The point is, that actually does remove choice. So while Maelwynn may not have nailed down the argument, there is something to be said for the limited choice, particularly if you come in late or are part of a larger group.

 

I can say why I think the games you listed are different (less races to choose from, a far more in depth context and commitment to the races from TES players and a certain level of expectation for some semblance of choice), but already we see that people prefer not to accept these as reasons at all. 

 

The excuse they use to trash the other viewpoints seems to be that it's an MMORPG and not an SRPG. It's their game so live with it. How dare you criticize their design philosophy. You are being disrespectful of the developers and if you can't do it better than you shouldn't have an opinion. All the same old shit.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  jimdandy26

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 559

3/16/13 1:48:28 PM#189
Originally posted by colddog04

And with 25ish different people involved, it feels extremely restictive. Imagine what large guilds are going to feel like. I mean, RvR is fairly central to the game the way they've explained it. You would think that they would want to attract some of those guilds that are RvR fans.

 

Ok everyone, you can pick from 3 races!

 

Or worse yet, my friend already picked a race and has gotten to max level. He invites me to play the game and tells me I actually can only choose from 3 races to play with him. Hmm... ok, cool. I guess. Seems strange, but ok, I'll pick Argonian, Dunmer or Nord even though I don't like any of them. 

 

Sounds like shitty design to me, but obviously others don't feel the same way.

This is the only really "fair" argument, but not for the reason you state. If they would have split it so there were a "human" a "beast" and an "other" to each faction it would be solidly equal based on general player trends upon choosing race. "Humans" are pretty much always the largest demographic because most players want to be able to connect with thier character on some level. The most often chosen comes down to choosing a character that looks like you as it were. The next is invariably the one that looks the most "badass", generally a beast race of some sort (insert furry joke here) with the next chosen being those who wish to attempt to be a unique snowflake by nabbing up the "most different" because they are the least played.

If I had to make a guess (since AD are the only faction that do not fit the paradigm) the Bosmer are going to be seriously downplayed as elves, looking much more "half elf" like to pass as a "human" type race.

I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/16/13 2:00:54 PM#190
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 2:07:11 PM#191
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/16/13 2:17:58 PM#192
^ I can agree to agree on that.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 14378

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/16/13 2:34:17 PM#193
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I prefer it this way, as the setup removes itself from the SP franchise and establishes it more within this genre, it also helps the series separate itself from the MMO, meaning any failure here doesn't carry over there.

I also prefer the type of game TES is as a single player experience, it simply fits better, especially considering how they tell their stories of the lone hero.

The only fitting MP experience I can see for the TES series would be a co-op mode, and possibly arena matches.

I already get my TES fill , I don't need to get it here as well, I'm kinda happy this is something else entirely.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 2:48:42 PM#194
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I prefer it this way, as the setup removes itself from the SP franchise and establishes it more within this genre, it also helps the series separate itself from the MMO, meaning any failure here doesn't carry over there.

I also prefer the type of game TES is as a single player experience, it simply fits better, especially considering how they tell their stories of the lone hero.

The only fitting MP experience I can see for the TES series would be a co-op mode, and possibly arena matches.

I already get my TES fill , I don't need to get it here as well, I'm kinda happy this is something else entirely.

I can see that. And I don't want the game to be Skyrim with a bunch of people playing either.

 

There are just a couple of things that seem strange to me still. Faction locked based on race selection and territorry locked based on faction selection. They could keep everything else exactly the same and it wouldn't seem like such a stretch to me.

 

Putting up invisible walls so that you are incapable of going anywhere except where your own faction levels is very SWTOR-like and overly limited to me (actually, SWTOR has more freedom in this regard as you actually do see enemy players every once in a while after level 20ish). There is an exception and it is an RvR zone. And the race selection, especially when considering the sheer number of people I will likely be trying to enjoy this game with seems overly limiting to me as well.

 

But I don't mean to take away from your opinion that you prefer what they are doing or anything. I just personally see some of this stuff as strange and limiting not only for an Elder Scrolls MMORPG, but for any other MMORPG as well. It just makes it stand out more to me because it's based on TES.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 2861

3/16/13 3:00:03 PM#195
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I can agree with more options are nice but when it comes down to brass tax its no different then most MMO. You want to play X race then you need to play Y faction. Friends, family and guildies will most times not agree where to play. Even if every factiom had more race options that still would happen. Its not bad design as you said lol. It is what it is and eveyone has to pick whats important to them. I have given up what race class combo I wanted to play to be able to play with friends and I am sure it wont be my last. Blaming ESO for this is blaming them for the nature of what makes MMOs a MMOs. 

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 3:10:32 PM#196
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I can agree with more options are nice but when it comes down to brass tax its no different then most MMO. You want to play X race then you need to play Y faction. Friends, family and guildies will most times not agree where to play. Even if every factiom had more race options that still would happen. Its not bad design as you said lol. It is what it is and eveyone has to pick whats important to them. I have given up what race class combo I wanted to play to be able to play with friends and I am sure it wont be my last. Blaming ESO for this is blaming them for the nature of what makes MMOs a MMOs. 

Well, not most games, but some games, yes. Most games don't have more than one faction in the first place. Let me actually check on this a bit. The biggest games:

 

WoW - 2 factions - you can go wherever you want

TSW - 3 faction, no races though - only main base zone is unique

GW2 - no factions

EQ2 - 2 factions, but you can switch and even be neutral

UO - no factions

EVE - 4 factions, 4 races, however, you are free to go anywhere

LotRO - no factions

DDO - no factions

DAoC - factions, basically what ESO is doing except with more races

FFXIV - 3 factions (when I played), you can go anywhere and be any race

Rift - 2 factions, you can go anywhere except main cities

Vanguard - pretty open one here. you pick where you start based on race, but everything is open to everyone

SWTOR - 2 factions, beginner areas are locked to faction, but open up later

 

So even in the games with factions, you were still allowed to go wherever you wanted in almost all of these games. The way I understand ESO is that you indeed can not. That is a major difference IMO. 

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 2861

3/16/13 3:45:42 PM#197
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I can agree with more options are nice but when it comes down to brass tax its no different then most MMO. You want to play X race then you need to play Y faction. Friends, family and guildies will most times not agree where to play. Even if every factiom had more race options that still would happen. Its not bad design as you said lol. It is what it is and eveyone has to pick whats important to them. I have given up what race class combo I wanted to play to be able to play with friends and I am sure it wont be my last. Blaming ESO for this is blaming them for the nature of what makes MMOs a MMOs. 

Well, not most games, but some games, yes. Most games don't have more than one faction in the first place. Let me actually check on this a bit. The biggest games:

 

WoW - 2 factions - you can go wherever you want

TSW - 3 faction, no races though - only main base zone is unique

GW2 - no factions

EQ2 - 2 factions, but you can switch and even be neutral

UO - no factions

EVE - 4 factions, 4 races, however, you are free to go anywhere

LotRO - no factions

DDO - no factions

DAoC - factions, basically what ESO is doing except with more races

FFXIV - 3 factions (when I played), you can go anywhere and be any race

Rift - 2 factions, you can go anywhere except main cities

Vanguard - pretty open one here. you pick where you start based on race, but everything is open to everyone

SWTOR - 2 factions, beginner areas are locked to faction, but open up later

 

So even in the games with factions, you were still allowed to go wherever you wanted in almost all of these games. The way I understand ESO is that you indeed can not. That is a major difference IMO. 

LOL, Im not playing who can list more MMOs wins. I will just pull one from your list. WoW, you want to be a bloodelf and you guild was to play Alliance you have 2 options, play what you want or play with friends. Try and make it seem bigger then it is but its not :-) Again most MMOs do this. 

  Sephiroso

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

3/16/13 3:50:00 PM#198
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
 

LOL, Im not playing who can list more MMOs wins. I will just pull one from your list. WoW, you want to be a bloodelf and you guild was to play Alliance you have 2 options, play what you want or play with friends. Try and make it seem bigger then it is but its not :-) Again most MMOs do this. 

there's quite a difference in having to choose to pick your 2nd or 3rd favorite race because your friends wanted to play horde vs completely being forbidden to even get to experience certain zones just because your friends wanted to play aldmeri faction


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5415

3/16/13 3:51:20 PM#199
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I can agree with more options are nice but when it comes down to brass tax its no different then most MMO. You want to play X race then you need to play Y faction. Friends, family and guildies will most times not agree where to play. Even if every factiom had more race options that still would happen. Its not bad design as you said lol. It is what it is and eveyone has to pick whats important to them. I have given up what race class combo I wanted to play to be able to play with friends and I am sure it wont be my last. Blaming ESO for this is blaming them for the nature of what makes MMOs a MMOs. 

Well, not most games, but some games, yes. Most games don't have more than one faction in the first place. Let me actually check on this a bit. The biggest games:

 

WoW - 2 factions - you can go wherever you want

TSW - 3 faction, no races though - only main base zone is unique

GW2 - no factions

EQ2 - 2 factions, but you can switch and even be neutral

UO - no factions

EVE - 4 factions, 4 races, however, you are free to go anywhere

LotRO - no factions

DDO - no factions

DAoC - factions, basically what ESO is doing except with more races

FFXIV - 3 factions (when I played), you can go anywhere and be any race

Rift - 2 factions, you can go anywhere except main cities

Vanguard - pretty open one here. you pick where you start based on race, but everything is open to everyone

SWTOR - 2 factions, beginner areas are locked to faction, but open up later

 

So even in the games with factions, you were still allowed to go wherever you wanted in almost all of these games. The way I understand ESO is that you indeed can not. That is a major difference IMO. 

LOL, Im not playing who can list more MMOs wins. I will just pull one from your list. WoW, you want to be a bloodelf and you guild was to play Alliance you have 2 options, play what you want or play with friends. Try and make it seem bigger then it is but its not :-) Again most MMOs do this. 

I think you missed the point.

 

In WoW, you do have 2 factions and so your race selection is limited to what faction you play for (7 races per side). But no matter what faction you pick, you are allowed to go anywhere in the world - to the point where you can actually invade an opposing factions city, kill their leader and get an achievement. And almost every single faction based game allows you to go anywhere.

 

From what I've read, in ESO, the areas you will be able to go are based on faction with the exception of Cyrodill which is a PvP zone.

 

This isn't a limited design philosophy for the ESO series, this is limited design for an MMORPG in general. It's lack of freedom just gets accentuated by the fact that it is using the TES IP.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

3/16/13 5:17:39 PM#200
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by PerfArt
Good thing this is only an offshoot and not a proper Elder Scrolls game. Otherwise, I could see people getting mad and flaming each other on message boards. Luckily, everyone is aware if the fact that this is a mmorpg based in ES lore. Whew.

Oh, wait...

Right, there's that argument. ^

 

It's not a single player game so the IP should mean nothing to people. Except the lore. And even then they can change some things.

 

Instead of designing a game and slapping an IP on top of it to sell copies, perhaps a better route might have been to take the IP and try to design an MMORPG around it. 

I can agree with more options are nice but when it comes down to brass tax its no different then most MMO. You want to play X race then you need to play Y faction. Friends, family and guildies will most times not agree where to play. Even if every factiom had more race options that still would happen. Its not bad design as you said lol. It is what it is and eveyone has to pick whats important to them. I have given up what race class combo I wanted to play to be able to play with friends and I am sure it wont be my last. Blaming ESO for this is blaming them for the nature of what makes MMOs a MMOs. 

Well, not most games, but some games, yes. Most games don't have more than one faction in the first place. Let me actually check on this a bit. The biggest games:

 

WoW - 2 factions - you can go wherever you want

TSW - 3 faction, no races though - only main base zone is unique

GW2 - no factions

EQ2 - 2 factions, but you can switch and even be neutral

UO - no factions

EVE - 4 factions, 4 races, however, you are free to go anywhere

LotRO - no factions

DDO - no factions

DAoC - factions, basically what ESO is doing except with more races

FFXIV - 3 factions (when I played), you can go anywhere and be any race

Rift - 2 factions, you can go anywhere except main cities

Vanguard - pretty open one here. you pick where you start based on race, but everything is open to everyone

SWTOR - 2 factions, beginner areas are locked to faction, but open up later

 

So even in the games with factions, you were still allowed to go wherever you wanted in almost all of these games. The way I understand ESO is that you indeed can not. That is a major difference IMO. 

LOL, Im not playing who can list more MMOs wins. I will just pull one from your list. WoW, you want to be a bloodelf and you guild was to play Alliance you have 2 options, play what you want or play with friends. Try and make it seem bigger then it is but its not :-) Again most MMOs do this. 

I think you missed the point.

 

In WoW, you do have 2 factions and so your race selection is limited to what faction you play for (7 races per side). But no matter what faction you pick, you are allowed to go anywhere in the world - to the point where you can actually invade an opposing factions city, kill their leader and get an achievement. And almost every single faction based game allows you to go anywhere.

 

From what I've read, in ESO, the areas you will be able to go are based on faction with the exception of Cyrodill which is a PvP zone.

 

This isn't a limited design philosophy for the ESO series, this is limited design for an MMORPG in general. It's lack of freedom just gets accentuated by the fact that it is using the TES IP.

 Yup. Did that. Got the warbear.

I played WOW for years in a PVP server (Emerald Dream), belonged to an Alliance PVP-oriented guild (Mo Mercy Mafia)... I know WOW PVP intimately

WOW has casual, tacked-on PVP on top of a PVE game. Their emphasis is grinding a second set of gear in Battlegrounds. Open World PVP happens once in a blue moon and mostly just in order to get the achievement and mount.

In other wrords, WOW PVP is about as casual and light as PVP gets.

DAoC PVP was a whole diferent story: it was persistent, it wasn't gear driven, it was very active, it was brutal and unforgiving. There was a real sense of danger whenever you ventured into the RvR zones. There was no waving to the other guy to indicate you didn't want to fight and were just questing---which is the norm in both WOW and Rift PVP servers.

Isn't it obvious by now that they're going the DAoC way, not the WOW way?

Maybe they're wrong about PVE faction locks being a key element in creating the us vs. them hardcore feel. But I don't think they are. Just like not being able to talk to them is key, so is not running into them frequently in the carebear areas, questing side by side as if they actually could stand each other...

So why not just have war everywhere? Because you and I and they know damn well that griefers will grief and those games ust degenerate into unorganized gank fests. They're going for a simulation of organized warfare with large nubers of players, sieges, etc. That is a different kind of PVP and it only works if it's focused and controlled.

It's not just a bunch of random decissions by a bunch of amateur developers. It's calculated to produce a certain end result: Organized, large scale PVP...a.k.a. RvR.

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