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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Help me understand this...

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233 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 10:55:44 AM#161
Pyrate
1 daoc is open world (no instances at all)
2 rpgs have half the genre of a mmorpg, likewise mmorts and mmofps share the other half with mmorpg. They aren't the same genre. A rpg with multiplayer is a cooprpg.

I'm glad your here though as your view of "the one true tes mmo" is the polar opposite of jtcgs' vision.
  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1271

2/21/13 10:58:03 AM#162
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I can think of 3 mmos that are based on single player prior games, uo, wow & swtor.

One stuck hard to the original formula, the other two made mmos radically different to the single player games.

Which one was the greatest financial disaster in gaming history?

UO stuck to the same basic game design as the ultima series, may be wrrng never really got to try UO but from looking at the crappy youtube stuff then it certainly looks the same.

WOW - Totally changed direction in their game design. Went from a RTS to MMO. Appealed to an entirely new audience and there really was no comparrison at all because the different franchises.

SWTOR You could argue it tried to emulate the story driven KOTOR game but to behonest, if they had done taht it might have been more successful. Problem was, people were expecting KOTORO and didn't get it.

So yes, SWTOR faied because it deviated from the fanbases expectations too much while remaining in pretty much the same genre to try and capture more players, losing their exisiting fanbase and not securing enough from the 'other' category.

So...

Using an IP, remaining in the same genre but changing large portions of gameplay to fit online mode = failure.

Using an IP, keeping the basic structure of the game = Success.

Using an IP, creating a totally new market in a completly unrelated genre = Success.

 

Which is TESO again?

What ESO is doing is chaging genres (SPRPG to MMORPG. they are two completely different genres).

I know Bethesda are not making the game but they completely changed the game mechanics for TES: Redguard. That was a linear Tomb Raider style game. Why can't they do something different with ESO?

They arent completely different genres. They are 2 subsets of the same genre. RPG.

The only difference is that one is Single Player Offline and the other is Massive Multiplayer Online.

The RPG part is the same

A different genre would be a RTS and a RPG

 

And TES:Redguard sucked. Probably for the exact reason that they tried to turn an open world Elder Scrolls RPG into a linear Tomb Raider TPS

Zenimax isnt changing genres with ESO. They are taking an open world ES RPG and turning it into a linear Thempark DAOC2 MMORPG

 


All I'm implying is that a SPRPG and a MMORPG play differently. It's like all the sub genres of metal. Korn and Dark Tranquility are both metal bands, but "play"/sound differently.

And Redguard sucking is your opinion, not fact. Like it's my opinion that Zenimax turning ESO into a linear themepark DAOC2 MMORPG is a better ides than a sandbox style game. Either way they're changing some big aspects of the ES single player games to get it to work.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 10:59:42 AM#163
All you guys opposed to using a daoc pvp model.

What would you do?

From what I gather.....

Pyrate would want a darkfall type setup
Jtcgs would want a swg setup
Mael & sapphen would want a "fudged" rvr setup, akin to anarcy online and tsw
Others want no pvp at all.


Now can you see why zenimax picked a middle ground. You anti rvr guys couldn't agree on a pvp system.
  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

2/21/13 11:04:02 AM#164
Originally posted by ShakyMo
All you guys opposed to using a daoc pvp model.

What would you do?

From what I gather.....

Pyrate would want a darkfall type setup
Jtcgs would want a swg setup
Mael & sapphen would want a "fudged" rvr setup, akin to anarcy online and tsw
Others want no pvp at all.


Now can you see why zenimax picked a middle ground. You anti rvr guys couldn't agree on a pvp system.

I loved DAoC system, it allowed for many confort zones. My wife likes to stick to PvE and she did with no one attacking her in our faction area. I lived 50% in RvR where I love to PvP and down time with my wife and guild in PvE when I wanted to. The RvR map also had open world dungeons for people who liked that kinda of thing. It really is the way to go, to appeal to a large number of gaming styles. 

  SoMuchMass

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

2/21/13 11:09:17 AM#165

I actually prefer the current DAoC system, you are locked to your faction and you only see the enemy in Cyrodil.  It is refershing and it it hasn't been done in a long time.  It helps with identiy and builds comradery.  I am fed up with seeing the same old system.  It is time for something different.  People always talk about DAoC but not even 5% of the current MMO community experience DAoC so this will be a completley new experience for them.

In terms of "why", because that is the way they designed the game.  If you don't like it or it is a deal breaker don't play it.  Not every game system will suite your particular needs.  It works perfectly with their mega server tech, you don't have to have PvP or PvE servers since your zone is friendly.  If you go into Cyrodil you know you are PvP flagged.

At the end of the day TESO will succeed if it is a good game and will fail if it is bad.  Simple as that.

  Nihilist

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 555

2/21/13 11:12:21 AM#166

Its kind of funny, everybody rips on WoW clones but the moment somebody does something different people go ape****.

 

The idea of keeping the factions seperate is to create some mystery about the enemy. The players build up their characters and guilds in their own homelands than move out to fight the enemy.

 

Shared PVE has proven to not foster strong faction based pvp. TSW or even GW2 to some extent are recent examples.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/21/13 11:13:31 AM#167
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by immodium

Thats what I'm getting.

I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.

Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.

Not speaking for everyone but personally I don't see TESO having to be drastically different from TES. There are obvious things that need to be addressed but my main problem with their design is that things have changed that didn't need to be. Race locking factions are totally uncessessary. Restricting exploration is totally uneccessary. Both could have been achieved by having factions that are unrelated to specific races allowing anyone to join, thus removing the need for border restrictions.

The problem for me isn't that they had to change things to make TES work as TESO. It is that they changed things that didn't need changing and for no apparent reason other then they wanted to have DAOC RvR combat. They basically forgot to design a new system and just copid DAOC....irrespective of if it would work or if it would have adverse effects on the rest of the game.

While playing in your home territory (which I might add is very TES like since the whole continent isnt ope in Skyrim for example) the game is very much a TES game right down to the combat and bare bones exploration centric Compass.  When you expand the game to take into consideration it opens up into a new MMO then you now have a very DAoC like experience placed within a TES framework.  DAoC was critically acclaimed and highly rated and is arguably the best PvP MMO ever made.  ESO is attempting to recapture that feeling and in order to recapture it, you need to be as true to the original as possible.  Deviating is surefire sign of appeasing different segments and monetizing potential avenues of game play.  I love the fact that ESO is taking a hardline and keeping the PvE and PvP as true to their original counterparts at the risk of potential revenue streams.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

2/21/13 11:15:25 AM#168
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I can think of 3 mmos that are based on single player prior games, uo, wow & swtor.

One stuck hard to the original formula, the other two made mmos radically different to the single player games.

Which one was the greatest financial disaster in gaming history?

UO stuck to the same basic game design as the ultima series, may be wrrng never really got to try UO but from looking at the crappy youtube stuff then it certainly looks the same.

WOW - Totally changed direction in their game design. Went from a RTS to MMO. Appealed to an entirely new audience and there really was no comparrison at all because the different franchises.

SWTOR You could argue it tried to emulate the story driven KOTOR game but to behonest, if they had done taht it might have been more successful. Problem was, people were expecting KOTORO and didn't get it.

So yes, SWTOR faied because it deviated from the fanbases expectations too much while remaining in pretty much the same genre to try and capture more players, losing their exisiting fanbase and not securing enough from the 'other' category.

So...

Using an IP, remaining in the same genre but changing large portions of gameplay to fit online mode = failure.

Using an IP, keeping the basic structure of the game = Success.

Using an IP, creating a totally new market in a completly unrelated genre = Success.

 

Which is TESO again?

What ESO is doing is chaging genres (SPRPG to MMORPG. they are two completely different genres).

I know Bethesda are not making the game but they completely changed the game mechanics for TES: Redguard. That was a linear Tomb Raider style game. Why can't they do something different with ESO?

They arent completely different genres. They are 2 subsets of the same genre. RPG.

The only difference is that one is Single Player Offline and the other is Massive Multiplayer Online.

The RPG part is the same

A different genre would be a RTS and a RPG

 

And TES:Redguard sucked. Probably for the exact reason that they tried to turn an open world Elder Scrolls RPG into a linear Tomb Raider TPS

Zenimax isnt changing genres with ESO. They are taking an open world ES RPG and turning it into a linear Thempark DAOC2 MMORPG

 


All I'm implying is that a SPRPG and a MMORPG play differently. It's like all the sub genres of metal. Korn and Dark Tranquility are both metal bands, but "play"/sound differently.

And Redguard sucking is your opinion, not fact. Like it's my opinion that Zenimax turning ESO into a linear themepark DAOC2 MMORPG is a better ides than a sandbox style game. Either way they're changing some big aspects of the ES single player games to get it to work.

They might play a bit differently, but they are still basically the same "style".

Yes Korn and Dark Tranquility sound/play different, but they are more the same when you compare them to the likes of Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.

Redguard sucking might be opinion, but its opinion of a good majority of ES fans and gaming sites. Its the lowest rated ES game. So that kinda makes it a fact.

I agree. Zenimax is making some major aspect changes of ES to make it work and thats the problem.

To me, its like taking Korn (ES) and changing the aspects of their style to be more like Bieber (Themepark) to get it to "work" in the industry.

You dont see a problem with that? To you thats a good idea?

Hmm. maybe thats why the music and gaming industry has gone the way it has.

The public is willing to accept mediocrity

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/21/13 11:15:45 AM#169
Originally posted by ShakyMo
All you guys opposed to using a daoc pvp model.

What would you do?

From what I gather.....

Pyrate would want a darkfall type setup
Jtcgs would want a swg setup
Mael & sapphen would want a "fudged" rvr setup, akin to anarcy online and tsw
Others want no pvp at all.


Now can you see why zenimax picked a middle ground. You anti rvr guys couldn't agree on a pvp system.

Exactly and those other systems are shit and history proves it whereas as the RvR closed faction system has only been done once with massive success.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/21/13 11:19:18 AM#170
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I can think of 3 mmos that are based on single player prior games, uo, wow & swtor.

One stuck hard to the original formula, the other two made mmos radically different to the single player games.

Which one was the greatest financial disaster in gaming history?

UO stuck to the same basic game design as the ultima series, may be wrrng never really got to try UO but from looking at the crappy youtube stuff then it certainly looks the same.

WOW - Totally changed direction in their game design. Went from a RTS to MMO. Appealed to an entirely new audience and there really was no comparrison at all because the different franchises.

SWTOR You could argue it tried to emulate the story driven KOTOR game but to behonest, if they had done taht it might have been more successful. Problem was, people were expecting KOTORO and didn't get it.

So yes, SWTOR faied because it deviated from the fanbases expectations too much while remaining in pretty much the same genre to try and capture more players, losing their exisiting fanbase and not securing enough from the 'other' category.

So...

Using an IP, remaining in the same genre but changing large portions of gameplay to fit online mode = failure.

Using an IP, keeping the basic structure of the game = Success.

Using an IP, creating a totally new market in a completly unrelated genre = Success.

 

Which is TESO again?

What ESO is doing is chaging genres (SPRPG to MMORPG. they are two completely different genres).

I know Bethesda are not making the game but they completely changed the game mechanics for TES: Redguard. That was a linear Tomb Raider style game. Why can't they do something different with ESO?

They arent completely different genres. They are 2 subsets of the same genre. RPG.

The only difference is that one is Single Player Offline and the other is Massive Multiplayer Online.

The RPG part is the same

A different genre would be a RTS and a RPG

 

And TES:Redguard sucked. Probably for the exact reason that they tried to turn an open world Elder Scrolls RPG into a linear Tomb Raider TPS

Zenimax isnt changing genres with ESO. They are taking an open world ES RPG and turning it into a linear Thempark DAOC2 MMORPG

 


All I'm implying is that a SPRPG and a MMORPG play differently. It's like all the sub genres of metal. Korn and Dark Tranquility are both metal bands, but "play"/sound differently.

And Redguard sucking is your opinion, not fact. Like it's my opinion that Zenimax turning ESO into a linear themepark DAOC2 MMORPG is a better ides than a sandbox style game. Either way they're changing some big aspects of the ES single player games to get it to work.

They might play a bit differently, but they are still basically the same "style".

Yes Korn and Dark Tranquility sound/play different, but they are more the same when you compare them to the likes of Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.

Redguard sucking might be opinion, but its opinion of a good majority of ES fans and gaming sites. Its the lowest rated ES game. So that kinda makes it a fact.

I agree. Zenimax is making some major aspect changes of ES to make it work and thats the problem.

To me, its like taking Korn (ES) and changing the aspects of their style to be more like Bieber (Themepark) to get it to "work" in the industry.

You dont see a problem with that? To you thats a good idea?

Hmm. maybe thats why the music and gaming industry has gone the way it has.

The public is willing to accept mediocrity

 

Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.

 

No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

2/21/13 11:20:36 AM#171
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by muffins89

yes

yes

yes

Why?

because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

What makes you know anything?  DAoC was the greatest PvP MMO ever.  Name me another MMO where you fight over something for realm pride alone.  Go ahead, anyone else?  No, there isn't another game that instills such passion to the player.  When you finally enter PvP in another game, what is is?  Some half-cocked PvP deathmatch?  Some lame attempt at what made DAoC so good?  Exactly.  Landlocking starting zones is the only way for people to really make a bond with their surroundings.  Players today don't give a crap about passion or pride, just the next legendary item that they can acquire.  Well, at least you can use it to your advantage in a game that allows you to fight for your alliance, if nothing else.

 

I'm fine with shoving this feature down the new crybaby gamers' throats.  It's one of the few features that actually should be. And you'll like it.  Know why?  Because people don't know what's good for them today.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:23:03 AM#172
I kinda disagree with you there azza

I would still be interested in the game if it played like Pyrate wants. As I've said I imagined a tes mmo playing like a fantasy eve, but I think that would scare away the carebears and with the budget of TESO they can't afford to do that. So I'm glad they've gone all daoc as that was a good mmo too, and it's not copying bloody wow for a change.

The "rvr on the cheap" ideas used by funcom and arenanet aint much good though and the no pvp at all people are living in a fantasy land.

But a heck of a lot more other people wouldn't.
  kishe

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 1949

firefighter lvl90

2/21/13 11:23:53 AM#173

Just imagine if they just took Skyrim and turned it in to a MMO...people would be screaming bloody murder over balance day later.

 

The reason why Elder scrolls SRPGs are fun is because the game only needs to spoil one player with content. When you need to equal things out for thousands of players it becomes much more difficult.

 

 

  Maelwydd

Elite Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1101

2/21/13 11:24:19 AM#174
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Pyrate
1 daoc is open world (no instances at all)
2 rpgs have half the genre of a mmorpg, likewise mmorts and mmofps share the other half with mmorpg. They aren't the same genre. A rpg with multiplayer is a cooprpg.

I'm glad your here though as your view of "the one true tes mmo" is the polar opposite of jtcgs' vision.

You don't understand what genre means obviously. Look it up. MMO isn't a genre. genre's are things like RPG, FPS, Platformer, Action, Simulation...

While some games might have some crossover a game is classed based on it's predominant genre. So you can have an MMOFPS and an MMORPG, both MMO's different genre's.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/21/13 11:24:40 AM#175
Originally posted by Pyuk
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by muffins89
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by muffins89

yes

yes

yes

Why?

because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

 Or we could look at it for what it is, a game being made by designers choosing to use old outdated piss poor game design.

Why should we settle for crap when we know full well an MMORPG can be made open world and allow us to chose the faction WE WANT TO CHOSE, WITH THE RACE WE WANT TO PLAY and be able to go where we want, when we want? Especially when they are using an IP that IS MADE JUST LIKE THAT!

This! QFT.

Becasue that game would sell like 100 thousand copys tops and would be a worse failure then SWTOR.  Thjat is a fact backed up by proven history.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:25:02 AM#176
Also planetside 1 did rvr right too. Daoc isn't a one off.
  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1271

2/21/13 11:25:36 AM#177
Originally posted by PyrateLVThey might play a bit differently, but they are still basically the same "style".

Yes Korn and Dark Tranquility sound/play different, but they are more the same when you compare them to the likes of Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift.

Redguard sucking might be opinion, but its opinion of a good majority of ES fans and gaming sites. Its the lowest rated ES game. So that kinda makes it a fact.

I agree. Zenimax is making some major aspect changes of ES to make it work and thats the problem.

To me, its like taking Korn (ES) and changing the aspects of their style to be more like Bieber (Themepark) to get it to "work" in the industry.

You dont see a problem with that? To you thats a good idea?

Hmm. maybe thats why the music and gaming industry has gone the way it has.

The public is willing to accept mediocrity

 

Well, IMO new Korn and Bieber are the same thing. :)

 

I've heard a fair few TES fans say that the series has been getting dumbed down with every new release.

If your implying TES games are more challenging than themepark games I have to disagree with you.

  crasset15

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 154

2/21/13 11:27:46 AM#178

For years, people have whined about how all new MMOs are the same-ole-same-ole.

Then TESO comes along, and does something different, not just setting wise, but game design wise, and the same people are here complaining about it being different.

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:28:18 AM#179
Mael no I disagree

Planetside is a mmofps
Daoc is a mmorpg
Dragon age is a rpg
Left 4 dead is a fps.

Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2659

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

2/21/13 11:29:17 AM#180
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I kinda disagree with you there azza

I would still be interested in the game if it played like Pyrate wants. As I've said I imagined a tes mmo playing like a fantasy eve, but I think that would scare away the carebears and with the budget of TESO they can't afford to do that. So I'm glad they've gone all daoc as that was a good mmo too, and it's not copying bloody wow for a change.

The "rvr on the cheap" ideas used by funcom and arenanet aint much good though and the no pvp at all people are living in a fantasy land.

But a heck of a lot more other people wouldn't.

Yea I understand you there, we all have our own notions as to what an TES MMO would look like.  Mine would be a whole continent open world with no factions and no PvP with many a thousand of dungeosn to explore with msot of them offering bosses that droped powerful loot that a solo or 2 man team could take on but seeing as I am not getting my perfect TES MMO either I will settle for the road less travelled and that being the DAoC model.  At least the PvE zones still offer most of the things I want (minus the dynamic loot system of an AC)

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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