Originally posted by Caliburn101

As you have elected to be dismissive and insulting - characterising other people statements as yapping, and making it clear that people who haven't played DaoC don't have a 'legitimate' point of view, allow me to say this;

ESO is a TES game.

It isn't DaoC.

Therefore those with the most 'valid' opinions by your own 'school playground' logic should be TES fans.

It seems clear from what has been released so far that the Devs etc. are making a consistent point - that this is a TES game as an MMO.

They have taken what was admittedly a good model for a PvP-centric MMO and forced it into a PvE-heavy single player gameworld without taking into account the strongly and widely felt opinions that YOU think are irrelevant.

Considering the name of the game, the undeniable emphasis placed by it's creators on the TES world and lore - it is the DaoC fans who should 'get a clue'.

If that's what you want - petition about someone creating DaoC 2 - not ruining a long running franchise that has had NOTHING to do with it until this MMO.

Why don't you get a clue before you speak eh?

Actually TES has always been a PVE game... so by your logic... they should get rid of all PVP and just make it an open world PVE game. What's wrong? That doesn't meet your ideals? To bad you wanted it more TES.

 THey made this coice because it works best for PVP. PVE does not suffer because you will have 3 times the content. How you may ask? Well if they want to make a level 20 dungeon.... they haveto make 3 level 20 dungeon so every cn play it. If it was open world... they would just have 1 level 20 dungeon.

 

Caliburn

The moaners are no more "tes fans" than the people that aren't.

Half of these so called "uber tes fans" seem somewhat lacking in their tes knowledge for a start.

Also most of the "make it more like tes" suggestions seem to be in reality "make it more like everquest" or "make it more like star wars galaxies" suggestions

I don't see these same people moaning about groups of people being shut away in raids. WHICH ALSO has duck all I'm.common with.tes single player.

Originally posted by Kalstark

Originally posted by Vindicar

I can understand locking the "noobzone" or the very firsts "zones"... but entire regions ? I'm sorry but the way they justify it is just pure rethoric... It's nothing more but a huge restriction for anyone willing to"live" the game like any RPer or any passionate MMORPG player wants to when he joins a new MMO...

 Anarchy Online and  T4C instantly comes to my mind when thinking of a game where you can access your enemys' very first zone of appearing... I fail to see how this was game-breaking or side-pride-breaking.... Dood there is nothing like taking a walk into opposites' factions zones and bragging about your faction being the best...

 

pure limitation indeed.

so go play anarchy online and t4c, what are you doing here?

Reading about poeple's opinions, giving mines, discussing 'em... those kinds of things... I just named two games as exemples... I don't get it...
Anger management issues ?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Caliburn

The moaners are no more "tes fans" than the people that aren't.

Half of these so called "uber tes fans" seem somewhat lacking in their tes knowledge for a start.

Also most of the "make it more like tes" suggestions seem to be in reality "make it more like everquest" or "make it more like star wars galaxies" suggestions

Thats what I'm getting.

I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.

Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Caliburn

The moaners are no more "tes fans" than the people that aren't.

Half of these so called "uber tes fans" seem somewhat lacking in their tes knowledge for a start.

Also most of the "make it more like tes" suggestions seem to be in reality "make it more like everquest" or "make it more like star wars galaxies" suggestions

funny thing is, in these threads you seem to be the only person who every mentions EQ or SWG. People say

"TES has x feature and there is zero reason why TESO cannot have it so why did they change it

and you seem to read

"TES has x feature, SWG also has x feature, I want TESO to be SWG"

People want certain features to be like TES games because.....they like the TES games not becuase another MMO has them and they want TESO to be like that MMO.

Stop projecting!

Originally posted by immodium

Thats what I'm getting.

I can't see me getting the single player TES experience from ESO, regardless of what MMO they decided to slap TES onto. They're two different types of games for a start.

Just hoping it's a fun enjoyable game with lots of replay value.

Not speaking for everyone but personally I don't see TESO having to be drastically different from TES. There are obvious things that need to be addressed but my main problem with their design is that things have changed that didn't need to be. Race locking factions are totally uncessessary. Restricting exploration is totally uneccessary. Both could have been achieved by having factions that are unrelated to specific races allowing anyone to join, thus removing the need for border restrictions.

The problem for me isn't that they had to change things to make TES work as TESO. It is that they changed things that didn't need changing and for no apparent reason other then they wanted to have DAOC RvR combat. They basically forgot to design a new system and just copid DAOC....irrespective of if it would work or if it would have adverse effects on the rest of the game.

If they had free factions you would end up with shit pvp like swtor or tsw.

There's one group of players who thought tes would be like a fantasy eve or a big budget darkfall, to be honest that's what I thought it would be like.

You've got another group who thought it would be a 99% pve game like EQ or swg.

They can't satisfy both camps.

So what do they do. Well they could go with camp 1 but they wouldn't sell that much and would be looking at eve levels of players, which given the budget wouldn't be acceptable.

Or they could go pure pve and have even less players (remember vanguard)

The majority of players like both pve and pvp, but don't like pvp interfering with their pve.

So they have to have pvp, but not "forced" pvp. That leaves them 2 options, take a wow style approach and ghetto pvp off in meaningless mini games, which would really piss off the first group, and well the last thing we need in the mmo space is yet another bloody wow clone.

Or they take a daoc approach, which at least has some emergent behaviour in pvp so would annoy the first camp less and the second camp can still completely avoid pvp.

But history shows if you go the daoc approach you need hard factions, you can't have wooly "soloutions" where people can be chums in pve - tsw, Ao, Aoc culture servers even gw2 sort of. Or where people can have alts on the same server of differing factions - swtor, wow, rift, war after bioware takeover, where you get xfaction cheating running rife.. The only games that got it truly right - daoc itself, both planetsides, early war went very hard on faction lock.

It's a price they pay to make the game work.

Of course what they should do is copy daoc more and have coop servers with no pvp where you can go anywhere and group / guild with anyone, and ffa pvp servers where guilds claim keeps.

My $0.02.

 

You all want freedom of exploration, in a game that has three factions at war with one another.

Try being Lebanese and getting into Israel. Or North Korean and getting into South Korea.

It's nigh on impossible. Reason being, these places are at war with one another.

Put that element into a game and you have factions which restrict your ability to sneak into the others lands, because you are at war with them.

 

Now, I see this as sensible designing, however, I don't agree with it in principle.

 

Personally, I'd love the ability to sneak into another factions land and apply diplomacy or subterfuge/sabotage. I mean, TESO will have Sneak as an active ability. Hopefully the Speech skill tree is there as well. It'd make sense if any game could apply mechanics like this to RvR PvP, TESO should be that game!

 

(For any devs reading this: imagine having a character have a diplomacy quest hub in the capitol, which requires you sneaking into another factions land, finding a specific npc, conducting speech check, and gaining information your faction can then use against either other factions (map reveals, weakened supplies, etc) or against the 4th faction (Imperials))

 

I think the one saving grace to this seperated faction design would be if the content available to all three factions is unique.

The dungeons the Daggerfall experience between levels 20-30 are nothing like what the Ebonhearts experience, and the Aldmeri don't have any dungeons of a similar theme till level 45-50.

That could be a saving grace - Design on good, decent, individual gameplay, so that all three factions, with alts, don't feel like your playing quests on repeat.

 

I have more arguments I can make both for and against, sensible responses to my initial $0.02 might get me to voice 'till we hit $0.10.

Originally posted by nationalcity

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

yes

yes

yes

Why?

because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

No.  I just won't play their game.

Then don't, I mean there not gonna be able to please everybody some people are gonna like it some are not....

 

The new RVR Camelot Unchained is on the horizon maybe that is what your looking for then.......

This is the problem.  All of the DAOC people will have Camelot Unchained and now TES.  TES is a large IP that has nothing to do with DAOC...why force it on fans of TES?  I don't feel sorry for DAOC people as they will have another game.  I hope it isn't too late for the TES people to remove the invisible gates (or whatever they are going to use to block people).  Screw PVP immersion.  That's really the only reason they are doing this.

 

Edit:  I can't believe PvP fans are defending their decision to gut open world PvP.  Really the only people that should be defending this are the DAOC fans.

Originally posted by Monstre0auS

My $0.02.

 

You all want freedom of exploration, in a game that has three factions at war with one another. - I personally want freedom of exploration in a game where various factions are fighting over the crown but these factions are NOT race locked. They could have been Great houses (like having 1 Breton lord and all his army, 1 Elf from south and her army, 1 Elf from east and their army) , PvE guild factions (similar to great houses but just factions with interesting names and political ideals/aspirations) or even just have guilds fighting for the crown (after all it is a player that apparently puts the crown on so it makes more sence that a guild leader would put it on then anything else).

etc but

Try being Lebanese and getting into Israel. Or North Korean and getting into South Korea.

It's nigh on impossible. Reason being, these places are at war with one another. - Where do these guys fight then? If North Korea can't fight in South Korea and South Korea cannot fight in North Korea when would the fight be? Did the Germans fire bombs into France or INVADE!

Put that element into a game and you have factions which restrict your ability to sneak into the others lands, because you are at war with them. - Exactly. You are at war, entering their land is dangerous. But you can enter.

 

Now, I see this as sensible designing, however, I don't agree with it in principle. - I see it as lazy design.

 

Personally, I'd love the ability to sneak into another factions land and apply diplomacy or subterfuge/sabotage. I mean, TESO will have Sneak as an active ability. Hopefully the Speech skill tree is there as well. It'd make sense if any game could apply mechanics like this to RvR PvP, TESO should be that game!

 

(For any devs reading this: imagine having a character have a diplomacy quest hub in the capitol, which requires you sneaking into another factions land, finding a specific npc, conducting speech check, and gaining information your faction can then use against either other factions (map reveals, weakened supplies, etc) or against the 4th faction (Imperials))

 

I think the one saving grace to this seperated faction design would be if the content available to all three factions is unique. - 2 ways to look at this. If there is enough unique content in each faction to level a character to max level  then why restrict it. If I want to make 2 characters from the same faction I have to repeat content. If there were no borders i could go to another place to level. (it all depends on if there really is unique content in each faction, I doubt it.

The dungeons the Daggerfall experience between levels 20-30 are nothing like what the Ebonhearts experience, and the Aldmeri don't have any dungeons of a similar theme till level 45-50. - Dungeons. Either each faction with have unique individual dungeons (meaning a lot more development time and also slower released content as they will have to release content for each faction) or they are copy pasted. Options are to put them all on Cyrodil (not great for non PvP'ers), put them into faction land but teleport to entrance (makes me shudder thinking about the cheesyness of it) or each faction has a unique dungeon each release (will slow down releases as they have to do 3 times the content)

That could be a saving grace - Design on good, decent, individual gameplay, so that all three factions, with alts, don't feel like your playing quests on repeat. - Their set-up actually makes alts and repeated content very probable unless you ony create 1 character per faction which may not be what people want. Personally I want to creat an Orc and a Breton (always have) but both are in the same faction. That means I either repeat content (never had a problem doing it in the past tbh) but never get to see the other content (that will annoy me and is a problem) or create an alt in another faction just so I can see the rest of the game (so much for faction loyalty).

 

I have more arguments I can make both for and against, sensible responses to my initial $0.02 might get me to voice 'till we hit $0.10.

Sorry, just added in yellow but good post

Originally posted by ShakyMo
There's one group of players who thought tes would be like a fantasy eve or a big budget darkfall, to be honest that's what I thought it would be like.

You've got another group who thought it would be a 99% pve game like EQ or swg.

They can't satisfy both camps. - There is a 3rd camp. TES fans who thought it would be a like TES only online (I know, tough one to grasp but I am sure that is another camp).

So what do they do. Well they could go with camp 1 but they wouldn't sell that much and would be looking at eve levels of players, which given the budget wouldn't be acceptable.

Or they could go pure pve and have even less players (remember vanguard)

The majority of players like both pve and pvp, but don't like pvp interfering with their pve. - And yet the PvP totally interfere's with the PvP from the fact that to get their PvP working they locked races to factions up to locking borders to keep 'faction identity'.

So they have to have pvp, but not "forced" pvp. That leaves them 2 options, take a wow style approach and ghetto pvp off in meaningless mini games, which would really piss off the first group, and well the last thing we need in the mmo space is yet another bloody wow clone.

Or they take a daoc approach, which at least has some emergent behaviour in pvp so would annoy the first camp less and the second camp can still completely avoid pvp. - Or they take the WOW aproach and Don't have mini games and keep all the PvP inside Cyrodil (their lore actually states why no PvP takes place outside Cyrodil so this approach is already 100% fine according to their own lore).

But history shows if you go the daoc approach you need hard factions, you can't have wooly "soloutions" where people can be chums in pve - tsw, Ao, Aoc culture servers even gw2 sort of. Or where people can have alts on the same server of differing factions - swtor, wow, rift, war after bioware takeover, where you get xfaction cheating running rife.. The only games that got it truly right - daoc itself, both planetsides, early war went very hard on faction lock. - Or you don't copy paste DOAC, come up with your own design that takes all that is greta about a TES game and all that is great about 3 faction PvP and combine them.

It's a price they pay to make the game work. - No it is a price the TESO game pay for the lack of any kind of imagination in game design.

Of course what they should do is copy daoc more and have coop servers with no pvp where you can go anywhere and group / guild with anyone, and ffa pvp servers where guilds claim keeps. - Agree (well having different servers not to copying DAOC).

 

Originally posted by Mardukk

Originally posted by nationalcity

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

yes

yes

yes

Why?

because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

No.  I just won't play their game.

Then don't, I mean there not gonna be able to please everybody some people are gonna like it some are not....

 

The new RVR Camelot Unchained is on the horizon maybe that is what your looking for then.......

This is the problem.  All of the DAOC people will have Camelot Unchained and now TES.  TES is a large IP that has nothing to do with DAOC...why force it on fans of TES?  I don't feel sorry for DAOC people as they will have another game.  I hope it isn't too late for the TES people to remove the invisible gates (or whatever they are going to use to block people).  Screw PVP immersion.  That's really the only reason they are doing this.

 

Edit:  I can't believe PvP fans are defending their decision to gut open world PvP.  Really the only people that should be defending this are the DAOC fans.

DAOC people and TES people... why can't we be both?

Originally posted by Teala

 

No.  I just won't play their game.

LOL so even it it turns out to be the best game in the world you just wont play ?

Thats very odd.. and kind of silly really..

 

 

Mael - no the two camps I described both think they are "true tes fans", even though their views on what tes is as a mmo are diametrically opposed.

Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo in their heads as a pure pve game.

Some tes fans see the imaginary tes mmo one their heads as a ffa pvp sandbox.

Can't please both. Pleasing just one would lead to low sales for the budget in the second case (think eve) or very low sales in the first case (think vanguard)

forums messed up.. duplicate post.

Exactly bossa

I play a good 20+ hours a week tes (because all current mmo pve is shite), with ps2 as my mmo.

I find it somewhat galling to-be called bot a tes fan by people who think tes features little angry blokes with huge beards.

This will be the last AAA w/o Wpvp. 

Hmm wildstar bully. Looks like wow in space to me.