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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Help me understand this...

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233 posts found
  Aeonblades

Elite Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 1074

2/21/13 11:30:45 AM#181
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Mael no I disagree

Planetside is a mmofps
Daoc is a mmorpg
Dragon age is a rpg
Left 4 dead is a fps.

Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.

I agree, SWTOR proved you can't take an RPG and slap MMO on it and have it be part of the MMO genre.

Currently Playing: Rift, ESO, EQ1, Various betas
Have played: You name it.

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1106

2/21/13 11:32:06 AM#182
Originally posted by ShakyMo
All you guys opposed to using a daoc pvp model.

What would you do?

From what I gather.....

Pyrate would want a darkfall type setup
Jtcgs would want a swg setup
Mael & sapphen would want a "fudged" rvr setup, akin to anarcy online and tsw
Others want no pvp at all.


Now can you see why zenimax picked a middle ground. You anti rvr guys couldn't agree on a pvp system.

Where do you get that I would prefer a Darkfall style? I F'n hate DF/MO and the FFAPvP Gankfest style.

I like Open World Exploration. I like a PvE sandbox more than PvP.

A SWG system might be more along the lines of what I would prefer.

 

However. Im not opposed to the 3way DAOC style. Im fine with 3 warring Factions fighting over control of a single landmass (Cyrodiil)

What I am opposed to is locking those 3 warring Factions to Racial Nations and making it a World War with 4 segregated zones (3PvE,1PvP) instead of a Territorial War with 3 seperate Non-Racial Factions fighting over 1 (PvP) segregated zone.

 

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

2/21/13 11:32:18 AM#183
Originally posted by azzamasin

No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

TES games are open world and non linear. I don't care what PvP systems they use, remove those 2 elements and it isn't a TES game. TES games are sandbox in nature and while some might argue that they should have FFA PVP or full loot they are options. By using DAOC as a framework for the PvP they have removed the fundamentals of what makes a TES game a TES game.

You could go either way with PvP but the open world, non linear design of TES isn't open to negotiation. THAT is where they have failed.

 

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

2/21/13 11:32:37 AM#184
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by muffins89
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by muffins89

yes

yes

yes

Why?

because the games lead designers are stuck in the past and cannot come up with any new ideas. They have on rose colored glasses and actually believe the game they are basing it off of was great...so great it seems they think it will apply successfully to anything even though history proves them wrong.

::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

 Or we could look at it for what it is, a game being made by designers choosing to use old outdated piss poor game design.

Why should we settle for crap when we know full well an MMORPG can be made open world and allow us to chose the faction WE WANT TO CHOSE, WITH THE RACE WE WANT TO PLAY and be able to go where we want, when we want? Especially when they are usingan IP that IS MADE JUST LIKE THAT!

What do you mean by old?  By that logic almost every game design choice is "old".  I think it is refershing, we don't need to see the same thing over and over and over and over again.  Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:33:48 AM#185
One good thing azza.

Daoc pve ain't that different to tes pve. Just wander off and find stuff, non instanced dungeons, very few but big quests. This is a reason I find the ac / EQ fans stuff so funny, as daoc pve was sorta in the middle of those 2. I remember when playing Morrowind thinking wow this rpg reminds me of playing daoc, although them using the same engine was probably a factor too.
  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

2/21/13 11:35:28 AM#186
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Mael no I disagree

Planetside is a mmofps
Daoc is a mmorpg
Dragon age is a rpg
Left 4 dead is a fps.

Planetside and daoc have more in common than they do with the other 2.

Disagree all you want, they are industry standards for a reason.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

2/21/13 11:39:06 AM#187
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

There might be reasons not many tried it.

And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1183

2/21/13 11:41:06 AM#188
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by azzamasin

No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

TES games are open world and non linear. I don't care what PvP systems they use, remove those 2 elements and it isn't a TES game. TES games are sandbox in nature and while some might argue that they should have FFA PVP or full loot they are options. By using DAOC as a framework for the PvP they have removed the fundamentals of what makes a TES game a TES game.

You could go either way with PvP but the open world, non linear design of TES isn't open to negotiation. THAT is where they have failed.

 

I disagree. TES can be whatever the hell the developers want it to be. They've deviated from the open world format before.

 

You give the impression that a TES game can never fail if it's open world and non linear which is absurd.

Look at SWG's for a prime example.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:43:30 AM#189
Mael
Tes isn't a sandbox unless you get heavy on making your own stuff with the construction set.

It's a hybrid game.

It still has quest chains, it still has content that opens up as you level (dont believe me look up daedric quests on the skyrim wiki), mobs and npcs don't steal your stuff etc.. you can't build anywhere, you can't go and kill a jarl and take over his town, you can't go setup a farm or mine, you can't clear a dungeon then decide to make it your home.

It has most in common with ac of any mmo I've come across. - and that is a hybrid mmo

Sure it has bugger all in common with modern quest hub grinding linear themepark, e.g. just about everything post and including wow/eq2/coh

But it has a fair bit in common with old school open world themeparks like EQ and daoc. More than it does sandboxes like eve anyway.
  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1106

2/21/13 11:43:33 AM#190
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

There might be reasons not many tried it.

And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

Just because someone cant design or build a automobile from the ground up doesnt mean they dont know how to drive one or what goes in to making a great car.

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

2/21/13 11:43:39 AM#191
Originally posted by muffins89

  • unsolicited PvP, and enhance replayability.(TF1)
  • Each alliance’s home area is unique, and the distinct identity of a alliances native provinces helps to foster realm pride amongst players and enhance the meta-conflict which fuels the social side of a three alliance realm war. For prolonged success of the AvA meta-game within the fan community, it is very important that

This is golden, the most enjoyable pvp systems utilzes this.

Why people are asking about ESO pvp seems odd. ESO's issue are combat classes/character development and possibly pve. its Pvp seems to be more on track then most... if any question it should be about the choke points and barriers fuction in pvp.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:48:46 AM#192
Jet
Yeah I thought more people would be Hung up on the game having classes.

That said a skyrim progression system where skills improve on use doesn't work.in.a mmo, witness all those afk macroers in DF and mo.

But I thought they would have gone with an eve style setup rather than classes to be honest.
  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

2/21/13 11:51:18 AM#193
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

There might be reasons not many tried it.

And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

The reason not many tried it is because the MMO market was small back them.  WoW brought the genre more towards the mainstream yet it still stays niche.

About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

2/21/13 11:52:19 AM#194
Originally posted by PyrateLV
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

There might be reasons not many tried it.

And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

Just because someone cant design or build a automobile from the ground up doesnt mean they dont know how to drive one or what goes in to making a great car.

Some people might love a car and others might hate the same car.  So at the end of the day its all subjective.

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

2/21/13 11:54:45 AM#195
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Jet
Yeah I thought more people would be Hung up on the game having classes.

That said a skyrim progression system where skills improve on use doesn't work.in.a mmo, witness all those afk macroers in DF and mo.

But I thought they would have gone with an eve style setup rather than classes to be honest.

 

Could also do it similar to pre nge swg. kinda of a inbetween.  or just make mob ai super hard. hehe but yeah i don't really get whats going on here.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

2/21/13 11:55:34 AM#196
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

lol where did I say that?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/13 11:57:13 AM#197
Mael
I've never met a game designer who can't do some code.

Now ones I've not met, the genius that is Jeff Hickman springs to mind :D

put it this way, I would have way more confidence working for a designer that had some experience of coding. I've come up against non coders put in charge on non games projects and they want the moon on a stick.
  SoMuchMass

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 583

2/21/13 11:59:34 AM#198
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass

About the game design comment.  Calling the DAoC model "piss poor" design is baseless.  There is nothing that backs up that comment.

lol where did I say that?

You quoted me for calling out a  person that  said DAoC model was "piss poor" design.  Please read it again.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 948

2/21/13 12:00:19 PM#199
Originally posted by immodium

 

I disagree. TES can be whatever the hell the developers want it to be. They've deviated from the open world format before.

 

You give the impression that a TES game can never fail if it's open world and non linear which is absurd.

Look at SWG's for a prime example.

It isn't about trying to guess if TESO will fail or not. No one knows.

But I can 100% state for a fact that if the current design of TESO being neither Open world (this just means nothing resticted and FFPA PVP as a lot of stupid people seem to think)  or non-linear (if you can do any story any time and don't ahve to complete any quest to level up then that is fine but that is not the case atm from available info) is acurate then it is not a TES game in anything but name.

  Latronus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 705

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

2/21/13 12:01:09 PM#200
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by SoMuchMass
 Less than 5% of the current MMO base experience DAoC, now they can see parts of it in TESO.

It is always fun to see posters talk about "game design", when they probably couldn't write a line of code.

There might be reasons not many tried it.

And funny, but why do you think someone needs to write code to be able to design games? It might be useful but isn't essential.

You are correct.  Knowing how to program is not really needed to design a game; however, I bet 99% of those that complain about old game designs have absolutely no idea what is required in designing a game or anything else for that matter.  I'd love to see many of these nay Sayers put into a position of authority and have to make these same decisions.  It's easy to say that they would make differing decisions, but when your faced with cost, schedule, & performance parameters, the choices aren't as clear cut as the average gamer thinks.  

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