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Originally posted by XAPGames

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop.

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Other than the fact that you're missing out on six to eighteen months of hundreds of thousands of players dropping $15 monthly on top of having paid for the box (in multi-levels as you suggested).

That's a large pile of cash.  From there, do a TSW... drop the mandatory sub and crank up item shop, optional sub, and/or unlockable content.

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Originally posted by Istavaan

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Originally posted by Nitth

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Originally posted by Istavaan
If you don't pay your 15$ a month you can't win.

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Your not making any sense with your abstract quotes now. Can you put that into some context?

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You know exacly what i am talking about. it doesn't matter what way you pay if you don't pay you can't win, and this is true for p2p as much as it is for f2p.

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Originally posted by Ambros123

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky
For me, the player, I'd much rather see a game released worthy of charging a sub with no cash shop.

But you asked us to "think like Zenimax." Business-wise, you cannot go wrong with B2P and Cash Shop. B2P is all the rage now so people will accept that it is great from the get-go. You avoid going F2P from a sub when your game fails to keep the players' interests, so all looks fine from the outside when numbers start to drop. Also, creating cool items for the cash shop is much more profitable than creating actual content, which is now a by-product just to keep players playing so they may pay more. For box sales, I would create about 4 tiers of boxes to make people with money feel special. I would tack on some in-game assets for those who pre-purchase.

After all, the whole reason I (being Zenimax) am creating TES:O is for cash, right?

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P2P games also utilize the cash shop, everyone utilizes the cash shop.  I remeber back when I would be a pet on WoW's anniversery.  Now if you want a spiffy pet or mount then you have to pay via a cash shop unless you can earn it in game.  Long ago companies where like "Hey.... we can stop rewarding our players for free and put these cosmetics in a cash shop and people will buy it!"

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I am fully aware that there will probably never be another game created that is lacking a cash shop. The money there is too tempting. I just enjoy playing my games without my credit card on my desktop alongside my mouse and keyboard. I am in the minority, I know :)

[EDIT]
Sorry for the run-on posting :)

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to have to deal with the cesspool.

If ESO ends up with 250k subscribers it will be a financial disaster though.

why would i pay monthly for an Elder Scrolls game that wont offer what Skyrim offered? Just because its online? not enough reason.

B2P for me. Of course i will still buy it if its subscription (like i always do) and play the free month.

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to have to deal with the cesspool.

If ESO ends up with 250k subscribers it will be a financial disaster though.

If an mmorpg is a good game, people will pay, that's been shown over and over again. When you buy a subscription based mmo, people know full well you will be paying a subscription for it after the initial 30 days "free" from the box sale. If an mmo turns out to be shitty and people won't pay for it, the game  goes for the B2P or F2P model with cash shop. Going B2P or F2P from the beginning with a cash shop they know full well the game isn't worth a subscription so they go for box sales and cash shop money grab.

Voted B2P.  It's a throwaway themepark game, which has a limited longevity.  Also pretty much a solo player game with an ever changing array of players around you (via megaserver instancing of zones).  Not a good recipe for a community.

But perhaps fun for a month or 2, maybe more when updates come out .. hence B2P.

Although it would also be great if it were P2P, just so SWTOR might have a chance for another game to beat it's record flop from P2P (~2 million subs) to F2P (~200k subs) in less than a year.

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

I agree with this.

Unfortunately this is no EvE Online (niche game). I think they are aiming at the mainstream MMO players, so anything around EvE's numbers will be a "failure"

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by Vunak23

I love when people use WoW as an example when it suits there needs. You know whats F2P and has the worst community of any game. LoL. I would rather have the WoW community then that community. 

We have had one game that is B2P and its community is nothing to praise either. Yet we have many good P2P games with amazing communities, FFXI, UO, Shadowbane, DAoC and the list goes on. Now I am sure there are F2P games with great communites as well, I'm not trying to say there isn't. But having a gate there at the start will keep it from being accessible to every one on the block and help keep out botters and RMT alike if not just the random kid that doesn't belong in the game in the first place. 

I love how you use LOL when it suits your needs, see i can do that too. LOL isn't even an MMO so stay on topic will you.

I love how you didnt address anything in my actual post and just decided to make a failed quick jab at my obivous portrayal about how using another game as an example is a terrible way to gouge what the business model should be. Well done sir, well done. 

Also going off this community anything with a multiplayer element could be seen as a MMO... /sarcasm just in case you didn't catch it. 

I'd focus on making a great game that people want to play first and foremost.

For the payment model I would offer the base subscription model + cash shop like WoW and a limited F2P + cash shop model to keep the lower level zones populated.

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.

so you considered every F2P player a kid / teen / basement dweller taht cant afford a sub?....

you have no reason to blame the F2P community with comments like that.... clearly the subscribers who think like you are worse and i would play for free rather than paying to play with people like you. But i know not every subscriber is like you, just as you should know not every F2P player is like you think.

There are harpies in both communities. Your justification is not good enough to defend only one side.

Originally posted by rojo6934

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Tayah
I prefer subscription based. I'd even pay a lot more than the usual $15 a month for a good mmo. I'm willing to pay more for a smaller, better community.

In other words you prefer if the game fails and they keep it on life support just like DAoC/WAR etc

No, but I'd rather play with 250k good, like-minded people and pay more, rather than play with 1 million plus people in a free to play game that's got a shitty community full of kids and teens and basement dwellers that can't afford to play a subscription based game. I'm a bit snobbish, but that's what I'd prefer. I'd pay more to NOT have to deal with the cesspool.

so you considered every F2P player a kid / teen / basement dweller taht cant afford a sub?....

you have no reason to blame the F2P community with comments like that.... clearly the subscribers who think like you are worse and i would play for free rather than paying to play with people like you. But i know not every subscriber is like you, just as you should know not every F2P player is like you think.

There are harpies in both communities. Your justification is not good enough to defend only one side.

Yes, I consider F2P and B2P  players teens, kids, basement dwellers, and even worse, casual players. From what I've seen in the past when games start catering to casual mmorpg players it goes down hill. Those people that want the game to be easier should choose another mmo that caters to casual, much like the free to play and buy to play mmo's are. You may not agree with me, but that's my opinion.

I chose other. I think what would work well is a low sub 5.99-7.99, but then have a cash shop for vanity items. If I made a game that is how I would do it.  Especially with a game so amazing with art. You could have special mounts(I would pay to ride a tiger) special magic(make a fireball have a head of a dragon, etc) pets, special gear.. You get the idea.

Originally posted by Aeonblades
P2P Subscription. It's the best way to avoid 75% of MMO asshats.

Gw2 is B2P and I have to say that Gw2 has by far the nicest community around. Might be because the game encourages helping eachother as a community instead of competitive gameplay, so maybe instead of the paying model it's partially also the game itself?