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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

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166 posts found
  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2267

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

1/17/13 2:11:17 PM#141

1. IMO, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, I hardly think you could call GW2 a 'failfest' as universally, it isn't considered that. Even if so, I'm not sure it's combat system would be the thing keeping folks from playing.

2. TESO will have an aggro mechanic. This has been bandied about, and it is a mistatement. All games have an aggro mechanic. If a mob attacks you for a particular reason, you got aggro. If healers get hit for healing, that's an aggro mechanic. If mobs stay with the first target that hit them, that's its aggro mechanic. If the mob randomly bounces from player to player, that is its aggro mechanic. 

It is more accurate to say TESO does not have the common trinity aggro mechanic.

3. You're initial statement: The anti-holy trinity crusade is because the trinity has been implemented poorly, not because the system is bad.

  Effin_Rabbit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 728

This Rabbit stinks!

1/17/13 2:16:21 PM#142
Because playing scissor, paper, rock is boring no matter how graphically enhanced it is. Just my opinion, please dont leave a paper bag of burning poo on my door step.
  steelheartx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 410

1/17/13 2:16:46 PM#143

Lack of a trinity may work (somewhat) in a group style setting, but it will not work in a raid setting.  Raids can be tedious enough for alot of players with agro/hate.  I can't imagine a raid not having it.

 

That being said, i am looking forward to ESO and will hold off judgement untill i get to experience the mechanics myself.

Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  versulas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 287

1/17/13 2:49:58 PM#144
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by remyburke

With no threat mechanics, it sounds more like healers will HAVE to be sneaky. lol

This just can't be right - there must be something we aren't understanding.

If a healer has to be 'sneaky' than that means something the healer does has to, by definition, draw threat; i.e. a healer has to be sneaky to avoid generating threat, ergo - there is a threat mechanic.

Huh, that's kind of interesting. Should be a lot of pinballing the mobs back and forth like in EQ1.

It also means that without threat, a healer can heal all day and so long as he doesn't hit any of the mobs he 'shouldn't' get aggro... There doesn't have to be taunts. So just have the rest of the group running through the dungeon/camp aoe'ing everything and a healer or two can just sit back and never worry about taking fire.

I guess...

 

 

Originally posted by tollbooth

GW2 didn't get rid of the trinity.. all they did was make the current person getting hit the tank, and everyone the healer after that person goes into the down state.

Instead of taking a sidestep in mechanics and trying something new they took a step backwards into a land that no game bothered implementing before because you could see it was fail before you even tried.

Love this post XD

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/17/13 2:55:32 PM#145
TESO does have trinity though, they are just doing away with the agro table / taunts etc..

What I take from that is tanks will be the primary crowd controllers, which is good news if you want to pvp on a tank, you're still usefull.
  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

1/17/13 2:58:53 PM#146
I do hope they have a trinity and traditional aggro mechanics. Every game that doesn't do this, it has not turned out well. I will lose interest quickly in TESO if they do away with the traditional group. The idea of a traditional MMO in the Elder Scrolls universe appeals far more than a science experiment in MMORPG gaming habits.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

1/17/13 3:08:00 PM#147
They do have trinity. They've stated this.

I don't see why its an experiment though. games have had no agro table before - gw1, eve. Games have had entire encounters with no agro and taunt rules - war, Aoc. Lots of games also have encounters where bosses randomly switch agro - rift, tsw, even wow, probably more.

It's entirely possible to tank without an agro table and taunts, providing they provide tanks with other tools to tank. E.g. tanks become primary cc not "wizards", you have collision detection and true line of sight / projectile paths, you have guard type abilities to take damage for other players, you have abilities where you raise your shield to block range attacks and it blocks for people stood behind you etc..

And the good news is, all those abilities to tank pve are also useful for tanking pvp. Unlike + threat moves and taunts which are useless for pvp and force tanks into a constant cycle of respeccing if the want to do dungeons and pvp. Which means more tanks.
  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

1/17/13 3:22:09 PM#148
Originally posted by ShakyMo
They do have trinity. They've stated this.

I don't see why its an experiment though. games have had no agro table before - gw1, eve. Games have had entire encounters with no agro and taunt rules - war, Aoc. Lots of games also have encounters where bosses randomly switch agro - rift, tsw, even wow, probably more.

It's entirely possible to tank without an agro table and taunts, providing they provide tanks with other tools to tank. E.g. tanks become primary cc not "wizards", you have collision detection and true line of sight / projectile paths, you have guard type abilities to take damage for other players, you have abilities where you raise your shield to block range attacks and it blocks for people stood behind you etc..

And the good news is, all those abilities to tank pve are also useful for tanking pvp. Unlike + threat moves and taunts which are useless for pvp and force tanks into a constant cycle of respeccing if the want to do dungeons and pvp. Which means more tanks.

I dunno, I can see where you are coming from, but one encounter where aggro tables get wiped is a lot different from an entire game with no aggro tables. GW1 was...well. I played it for a month. Same for GW2, even though I knew better from 1. Randomly switching aggro is fine, as long as I can taunt it and snap it back to me or have some tool to take the brunt of the damage for my group.

Eve I can't really compare to any other game, because most sci-fi mmo's fail almost immediately, and I really don't like keeping spreadsheets to play a game.

Just make taunts reduce incoming damage in PvP, or add a PvP only stun/snare component too them. No more worries about tanks being useless in PvP. Deviating from the trinity is just dangerous and silly for the amount of money I imagine them pumping into this blockbuster game.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

1/17/13 3:24:08 PM#149
Originally posted by wowclones
how many times have you been in a game looking for a healer or tank for hours, it sucks. devs realize this, so it's a good thing.

Yep.  While some people seem to want a middle ground, what ANet did was a bold move that had the players' enjoyment in mind.  I wouldn't want to know the amount of hours I was actually waiting to have fun in other MMOs, because I think it would depress me lol

  Allymishka

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/12
Posts: 11

1/17/13 6:24:16 PM#150
I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content.  I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine.  I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course) :p 
  Celcius

Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 949

1/17/13 6:30:34 PM#151
Threat management is an excuse for terrible gameplay. Basically, if your gameplay does not support active movement style combat tanks have to be put in place. Its the same reason that there are "rotations" in alot of hotkey style MMOs where you basically hit abilities in a certain order or dependant upon when you get a proc tries to make up for a lack of good gameplay.
  Hrimnir

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1222

1/17/13 6:33:34 PM#152
Originally posted by ghstwolf
Originally posted by Khelden

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

 

Aggro systems are lazy hold overs from the past.  The trinity doesn't require an aggro system, and IMO would be much more fun without it.  Then again I am in favor of virtually any change that eliminates the DDR feel of group PvE.

"Doing it right" would be a ton more work.  You'd need positional blocking, an AI with a threat vs proximity metric and release/retarget subroutine, plus a few other considerations (friendly fire for example).  Sadly though, even if it were to be executed perfectly, the game would fail.  That leap in complexity would alienate too many players that want (need is probably the better word) the static encounter to be "epic".

Steering wheels are lazy holdovers from the past on cars, but we've tried new things and keep finding our way back to them.

 

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Celcius

Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 949

1/17/13 6:51:38 PM#153
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by ghstwolf
Originally posted by Khelden

Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

 I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

 

 

Aggro systems are lazy hold overs from the past.  The trinity doesn't require an aggro system, and IMO would be much more fun without it.  Then again I am in favor of virtually any change that eliminates the DDR feel of group PvE.

"Doing it right" would be a ton more work.  You'd need positional blocking, an AI with a threat vs proximity metric and release/retarget subroutine, plus a few other considerations (friendly fire for example).  Sadly though, even if it were to be executed perfectly, the game would fail.  That leap in complexity would alienate too many players that want (need is probably the better word) the static encounter to be "epic".

Steering wheels are lazy holdovers from the past on cars, but we've tried new things and keep finding our way back to them.

 

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

What you are saying is basically that we should stop trying new ideas if something already works because it has proven successful. If that was actually the case we would live in a pretty boring world. People are sick of the old style and it is the reason that both developers are trying new stuff and players are as well. Developers don't just make games that they think will make them money believe it or not. Developers like to play games too and are sick of the same things we are. 

We have seen pretty much every MMO try something new since Rift and this is the kind of direction the MMO industry needs to continue to take in order for us to continue to enjoy them in the future.

  Allymishka

Novice Member

Joined: 7/03/12
Posts: 11

1/17/13 11:57:28 PM#154
Looks like they will be using a CC system for the tanking mechanic!  dudes talking about using a Mortal Kombat Scropian Harpoon style pull in alpha version to bring mobs to you which has a stun at the end of it, and bash stun skill which doesnt require shields, all these things using fairly hefty stamina so if your trying to control the mobs position you cant do as much crazy sword weilding damage because your spending your stamina on the CC skills instead which sounds good to me!! 
  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

1/18/13 5:57:06 AM#155

Crying 'fail' against GW2 is all well and fine - there are reasons I don't play it anymore.

But to say (with even the least credibility) that their dropping of the trinity is one of the reasons is entirely unsupportable.

This has been one of it's major successes - and I would think long and hard about going back to an aggro-trinity system - which frankly I found boring before... never mind now!

  Wicoa

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1614

1/18/13 5:59:37 AM#156

I will simply say I prefer the trinity, it provides different roles to assume and different tactics to learn. I didn't buy GW2 mainly for this reason, however I still respect the game and those who play it.

Each to their own.

  Doogiehowser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1954

1/18/13 5:59:57 AM#157
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Crying 'fail' against GW2 is all well and fine - there are reasons I don't play it anymore.

But to say (with even the least credibility) that their dropping of the trinity is one of the reasons is entirely unsupportable.

This has been one of it's major successes - and I would think long and hard about going back to an aggro-trinity system - which frankly I found boring before... never mind now!

That is how i felt till i cleared dust from Vanguard and EQ2 and realised how much i missed playing tank and healer roles. 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Abedulelpino

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 5

Hammer the sword.

1/18/13 9:14:01 AM#158

I think the aggro could be redefined, i dont like the idea of a boss being all like "OMG i can hit all the squeshies but im going to single target this beautiful giant armored men with his 2 tons shields, even if the healer its scratching my balls with his staff!" i would like the idea of the boss going against the weakest, usually in most mmorpg you find a group in the following position: 

1- Tank: infront of the boss getting healed

2- DPS Melee: Static around the boss getting healed

3- DPS Ranged: Static far away from the boss to avoid aoe damage

4- Casters, Damage: Read 3

5- Casters, Healers: Read 3

6- Casters, Invoker: Read 3

This goes on for like 1 hour sometimes... ive seen this happen in action mmorpg too

If tanks could "Pull" the monster instead of keep them on aggro it could be nice

Melee dps could trap them, hit the legs! make them fall! dont let the boss reach the healers casters and dps!

Casters could have more movement impediment skills that could affect more the pve side of the game than the pvp, come on! they are mages and priests, do walls of energy to protect your ally or block the boss feet by covering it with ice or something!

And the Ranged dps gets to use the traps to ultimately distract the boss, it could be so much better to me if the hole team would need to work as it was a real battle, more movement, more actions to do in a raid/boss/whatever

Im not saying you cant have fun today with the games we currently have... but its repetitive in most of them, adding some action and tactics to the battle should change for good the way we enjoy it, im not against the holy trinity, i like it, but it need a twist and if they decided to eliminate it instead of changing it then thats because they worked on something better, so i wont complain.

Sorry for my poor english lol im from argentina =P cheers boys TES IS HAVING AN MMORPG! lets expect the best from it.

Look! a penny!

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

1/18/13 9:23:53 AM#159
I don't get mmorpg players, they say they want something different and when someone tries something different they complain that it's not the same as other mmo's.
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

1/18/13 11:22:29 AM#160
Originally posted by Allymishka
I dont know what you guys do when your waiting for groups / tanks / healers etc, but when i ever was doing this I had a ton of fun cause thats when you find someone else waiting for a group make a great duo and go do some other content.  I guess this less fun these days cause all the content outside of a dungeon is usually for solo play which sucks for a duo working like a well oiled machine.  I hope they take a leaf out of EQ1's book and make most things almost too hard for a solo except in the starter zones. ( almost too hard with exception of the necro in eq1 of course) :p 

 

Forced grouping is a non starter these days. Any game that used that would quickly find itself in a narrow niche. Look at what happened to Dungeons and Dragons online, at its launch. It would be even worse now.
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