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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Longevity. Yes or No

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136 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 4:14:13 PM#61
Originally posted by allendale5

I feel that as long as MMO's continue to replicate the same old ideas into different formats, this game and others to come will always lack longevity.   I think that the core goal should be to completely throw out the D&D/WoW format and come up with something new.  New games like to come up with new names for stats or gear but basically they are just various ways of implementing the same material.  

Why always strength, dex, con, int, wis etc etc??  why always levels and gold?   Why not start out as 10y/o kid carrying rocks to defenders on the walls of a siege and then gradually age by actual experience?  Have player actually LEARN skills, not train them for a price or because of a level.  Why not have players randomly assigned looks, sex, race, and born into a random family of other, more advanced players?  We don't get to choose our sex or race or skills prior to being born IRL so why not try to emulate this?  Not saying this is a great idea, just saying that if a dummy like me can think of this in 5 seconds (and there are several other great ideas I read in this thread) then why can't devs?  

I feel that no game will endure until the MMO introduces more chance, requires more skill and patience, and is organic and random in it's progression.  NPC's that never move, or only know 2 sentences.. yawn.  Give us player developed content that is permenant.  

well aparently they are copying the DAOC format, which is nothing like the WOW format, just about the only thing they have in common is a WASD/hotbar UI.

As for stats, Magika / Health / Stamina just like skyrim (older tes titles did have agility and stuff though).  Also skills advance through use.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/04/13 4:20:01 PM#62
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by toddze
Originally posted by ZigZags
....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

exactly, absolutly nothing about this game stands out to me about them trying for anything more than what I quoted for above. 

It seems developers has almost perfected this model. These games a coming out like factory made items.  Cheeply made zones,  genric quests. They are all the same game with minor changes to make it look different.

I just feel sorry for the casual elder scrolls gamer, the one's that doesnt really live in forums like we do. They are going to see TESO and their eyes will light up light a christmas tree. They are going to be thinking "Skyrim online". Oh man, how he/she will be sorely dissapointed. This example is another huge red flag that they are just after box sales. They couldnt even put any effort into making the combat feel like an ES game.

 Completely agree.

To me it seems that no matter how innovative the developers try to be or even think they are, they are still acting only between the standardized boundaries existing in practically every MMO created in last 10 years.

There is always the same framework. They just slightly change details. There are always the dungeons, raids, bgs, levels, endgame, quests, you name it. And then inside these boundaries, they start making the "changes". Our dungeons will be public dungeons, our quests will be dynamic events, we wont have holy trinity, we will have non-tab-targetting combat, etc...

How about trying to change the formula completely and create something truly new. In my opinion, there will not be revolution in the genre unless someone tries to break these boundaries.

The only thing I would disagree with is the combat. I kind of like the combat from the videos I have seen.

dungeons being open or closed isnt a minor change

with an open dungeon game like daoc or eq you just rock up and take part, players are OUT IN THE WORLD.

with a closed dungeon game like wow or swtor you hang around in cities queueing and waiting to go dungeons.  

the same is true with rvr frontiers and instanced mini game pvp.

basicly ;

  •   open dungeons and rvr = Massively Multiplayer online role playing game
  •   instanced dungeons and mini game pvp = Glorified lobby game once leveled

 

  User Deleted
2/04/13 4:28:58 PM#63
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Depends how good the rvr is

 

I agree.  If ESO can be considered a GW2 / DAOC hybrid then I think the DAOC side will be largely responsible for holding players long term.

 

  Crynswind

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/10
Posts: 307

2/04/13 4:31:43 PM#64

lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

 

Themepark? check

Dumbed down? check

Casual meaningless pvp? check

IP raping? double check

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

2/04/13 6:01:13 PM#65
Originally posted by Crynswind

lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

 

Themepark? check

Dumbed down? check

Casual meaningless pvp? check

IP raping? double check

 

Casual meaningless PvP? Um.... no. Quite the opposite.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1868

2/04/13 6:24:51 PM#66

I  and my wife played DAOC on and off for 10 years.

ESOL has the potential to hold me that long if they hold end expand upon the features that made DAOC great.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2197

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

2/04/13 6:28:00 PM#67
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Depends how good the rvr is

You could have just left it at one word imo.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

2/05/13 3:05:11 AM#68

Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

You're guessing at best...

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

2/05/13 3:06:46 AM#69
Originally posted by Crynswind

lol, this game has "3 weeks and then to the garbage bin" written all over it.

 

Themepark? check

Dumbed down? check

Casual meaningless pvp? check

IP raping? double check

Evidence for the last three of the above points?

...No...

  NC-John

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/13
Posts: 112

2/05/13 3:35:28 AM#70

If they can keep content updates on a Trion pace of speed, and listen to player feedback, They may delay the ultimate problems most themparks are facing with player retention, due to content consumption not in-line with pacing mechanics.

They really need to listen to beta testers. even if after those same testers all agree the game needs more time, they should listen. Don't be like all the rest and keep saying "after release" it's truly a copout to hear that now. get it in beta and get it done. you only get one release and it has to be a good one that can last beyond the free 30 days of game play or it's the big decline and eventual F2P conversion.

 

"Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  Niburu

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/12
Posts: 303

2/05/13 3:46:53 AM#71

It will suffer from the same problems as other themeparks. You play through the content and maybe do some endgame PvP and PvE. Once you did it 2-3 times it gets boring because it is all the same.  You can't create anything like in the single player games, no freedome that the single player or sandbox games offer.

 

In the end it might be not a failure like star wars online but it will slowly die than grow like GW2 does. Doesnt mean its a bad game but the concept is simply outdated and major companies need to realize that the futur is for sandbox open world and freedome games in which players build stuff, like ArchAge.

 

However its a big industry now, companies develop for a profit and not for gameplay. So a game dies after 2 years but had enough income the companies dont care

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

2/05/13 6:05:51 AM#72
Originally posted by Niburu

It will suffer from the same problems as other themeparks. You play through the content and maybe do some endgame PvP and PvE. Once you did it 2-3 times it gets boring because it is all the same.  You can't create anything like in the single player games, no freedome that the single player or sandbox games offer.

 

In the end it might be not a failure like star wars online but it will slowly die than grow like GW2 does. Doesnt mean its a bad game but the concept is simply outdated and major companies need to realize that the futur is for sandbox open world and freedome games in which players build stuff, like ArchAge.

 

However its a big industry now, companies develop for a profit and not for gameplay. So a game dies after 2 years but had enough income the companies dont care

Show me some kind of proof that a sandbox game will do better than a themepark, because i've looked and all evedence points to the oposite

 

To my knowledge no sandbox mmo has broken half a million, yet the last 2 major themeparks released sold over 2 million, or were those sales people who had mistaken gw2 and swtor for a sandbox?

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4074

2/05/13 6:08:02 AM#73

Not read the entire thread but just wanted to say..

 

 

We have not idea at all the game is not out yet, hell its not even in beta as far as i know..

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1806

"I shall take your position into consideration"

 
OP  2/05/13 11:17:20 AM#74
Originally posted by Findariel

Longevity is also one of my main concerns. One of the reasons why I'm in favour of P2P games and not B2P + cash shop. I don´t want to quit playing a game after a few months, I love the idea of building a virtual game community where everyone can do stuff and have fun.

---------------------------------------------------------------

1. More to do than just fighting
I hope people can enjoy the game playing different roles than just "fighter". One thing I loved about EVE is that some people were fulltime miners, crafters, traders or transporters, some of which couldn't even properly fly a frigate. I hope TESO will have multiple options to specialize deeply into things like crafting, food and such.

I feel that it would greatly contribute to making it a really rpg living, breathing world. I always dreamed of a full player run village with blacksmiths, tavern keepers, masons, carpenters, tailors and the like.
---------------------------------------------------------------
2. Semi-randomized Dungeons
I just don't like the static dungeon mechanic most games offer: always the same predictable mobs in the same place doing the same things. Usually resulting in wiki and youtube walkthoughs - and that's it. People work out the best group/way to speedfarm it and the next 5 years it's basically just another farm spot - or people just ignore it because it's too hard or unrewarding.

What I'd love to see (but probably won't) is dungeons with more randomized content:

  • So let's say you enter a dungeon, kill the goblin guards protecting the brigde, evade traps while you fight off bats and meet a troll mini-boss with its goblin minions.
  • The next time you get there the bridge is broken so you have to get across the underground river where a crocodile family is swimming around. The bats are still there, but have a mini-boss, and after that you'll face a small horde of goblins circling around their dead troll boss.
  • The third time you'll get the same bridge guarded with goblins but there's netting spiders with a poison bite in the trap corridor. The troll is there again, but there's a second caster troll as well, which makes it a totally different challenge.

And so on. If every dungeon had like 5 "scenarios" for every spot (spots in the example: bridge, trapped corridor, troll spot) and the average dungeon would exist out of 10 scenarios + some random patrols, you never know what you're going to meet. It would keep the content a lot more unpredictable and challenging then static content that you can lookup on a wiki a week after release.
Especially if devs would add a few new scenarios every now and then, which is far easier than make whole new dungeons. It may take a very long time to see every scenario and perhaps you'll never see all 50.

Some scenarios would perhaps favour casters, others may be easier for melee classes, some may cater the sneaky professions better. That way you can never have an "ideal dungeon group".
And with the random scenarios and adding some new ones from time to time you'll never get a youtube or wiki walkthough.

 

Originally posted by thexrated
Not looking for longevity. Happy with few months worth of entertainment.

Exactly - as if there´s not already enough games around to cater the "gamehoppers" among us.

Thanks for the answer. I agree for the most part.

I would like to see the red part as well. I made a simple game concept where I describe this (link in my signature if you were interested).

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1806

"I shall take your position into consideration"

 
OP  2/05/13 11:20:21 AM#75
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by toddze
Originally posted by ZigZags
....it is clear they are only after box sales and hope to make back their investment plus profit in the first 3 months and could probably care less about the game doing well past their initial release.

exactly, absolutly nothing about this game stands out to me about them trying for anything more than what I quoted for above. 

It seems developers has almost perfected this model. These games a coming out like factory made items.  Cheeply made zones,  genric quests. They are all the same game with minor changes to make it look different.

I just feel sorry for the casual elder scrolls gamer, the one's that doesnt really live in forums like we do. They are going to see TESO and their eyes will light up light a christmas tree. They are going to be thinking "Skyrim online". Oh man, how he/she will be sorely dissapointed. This example is another huge red flag that they are just after box sales. They couldnt even put any effort into making the combat feel like an ES game.

 Completely agree.

To me it seems that no matter how innovative the developers try to be or even think they are, they are still acting only between the standardized boundaries existing in practically every MMO created in last 10 years.

There is always the same framework. They just slightly change details. There are always the dungeons, raids, bgs, levels, endgame, quests, you name it. And then inside these boundaries, they start making the "changes". Our dungeons will be public dungeons, our quests will be dynamic events, we wont have holy trinity, we will have non-tab-targetting combat, etc...

How about trying to change the formula completely and create something truly new. In my opinion, there will not be revolution in the genre unless someone tries to break these boundaries.

The only thing I would disagree with is the combat. I kind of like the combat from the videos I have seen.

dungeons being open or closed isnt a minor change

with an open dungeon game like daoc or eq you just rock up and take part, players are OUT IN THE WORLD.

with a closed dungeon game like wow or swtor you hang around in cities queueing and waiting to go dungeons.  

the same is true with rvr frontiers and instanced mini game pvp.

basicly ;

  •   open dungeons and rvr = Massively Multiplayer online role playing game
  •   instanced dungeons and mini game pvp = Glorified lobby game once leveled

 

You are right. Public dungeons are not as minor change as the others mentioned above.

I do like them.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1806

"I shall take your position into consideration"

 
OP  2/05/13 11:27:07 AM#76
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

You're guessing at best...

Wildly speculative? Yes

Entirely pointless? Depends on the point of view.

My point is not to prove something or reach some definite conclusion. The point is to find out other's opinions (or speculations if you will) regarding this matter.

I am dissmissive of themeparks as you say which should not be so relevant for the point of this thread described above.

Feel free to speculate if you like and if you dont, feel free not to participate in the discussion.

The answer to the question asked in the OP may be quite simple. One person may say..."for me, the longevity is in the public dungeons if they are done right". Next person may say "for me, it is the pvp that promises longevity if this and that happens".

In fact, I would be interested to hear some opinions like this. Is that entirely pointless? Maybe...

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  exile01

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/13
Posts: 147

2/05/13 11:43:32 AM#77
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

You're guessing at best...

Wildly speculative? Yes

Entirely pointless? Depends on the point of view.

My point is not to prove something or reach some definite conclusion. The point is to find out other's opinions (or speculations if you will) regarding this matter.

I am dissmissive of themeparks as you say which should not be so relevant for the point of this thread described above.

Feel free to speculate if you like and if you dont, feel free not to participate in the discussion.

The answer to the question asked in the OP may be quite simple. One person may say..."for me, the longevity is in the public dungeons if they are done right". Next person may say "for me, it is the pvp that promises longevity if this and that happens".

In fact, I would be interested to hear some opinions like this. Is that entirely pointless? Maybe...

Well it is clear for me. Hype is equal to dissapointment.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

2/06/13 3:41:19 AM#78
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Entirely pointless and wildly speculative thread considering that the longevity factor is not clear in the slightest at the moment.

The information released to date raises various questions, but longevity isn't one of them.

You are clearly dissmissive of themeparks, but you really don't know how sandbox Cyrodil is going to be - nor how big, nor how much fun, nor how challenging.

You're guessing at best...

Wildly speculative? Yes

Entirely pointless? Depends on the point of view.

My point is not to prove something or reach some definite conclusion. The point is to find out other's opinions (or speculations if you will) regarding this matter.

I am dissmissive of themeparks as you say which should not be so relevant for the point of this thread described above.

Feel free to speculate if you like and if you dont, feel free not to participate in the discussion.

The answer to the question asked in the OP may be quite simple. One person may say..."for me, the longevity is in the public dungeons if they are done right". Next person may say "for me, it is the pvp that promises longevity if this and that happens".

In fact, I would be interested to hear some opinions like this. Is that entirely pointless? Maybe...

A reasonable response, so allow me to rejoin...

We cannot - you, I or anyone, at the moment, have an informed opinion on this matter.

We can get out our crystal balls and speculate, but that's it.

My point is that there is far too much prognostication on these boards which amounts to smoke and mirrors - blurring the lines between what we can and cannot know, what we can and cannot predict, and what we can, and cannot expect to like or dislike about the game.

Creatng threads with no current basis just muddies the water - we might as well be debating whether ESO will introduce Chocobos - simply because we have no information they won't...

... but that would be just as pointless in my opinion.

If people could limit themselves to slightly more sensible debate about what we know, or can predict based on SOME evidence, at least the wild swings between this faction and that faction on the boards would have some relevance, and be of some use to those reading it.

There is in my opinion far too much 'what if' chat that gets taken as gospel truth, and feeding that ignorant fire does no-one any good whatsoever.

That said - it will continue until the end of time - but that doesn't mean I can't complain about it...

C'est la vie...

  Tibbz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 618

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in a group"

2/06/13 1:56:38 PM#79
All the new MMOs seem to have content that can be blown through in an insignificant amount of time.  They all tend to go down the line of a  single player game with a chat log.  The older styles games, and wow to an extent, still have a paying player base that is dedicated on come to and from the games.  I mean look at EQ1/EQ2; still cranking out expansions, still has a paying player base (free-mium or not).  The short answer is it should take time to “level” or skill up, require grouping/duoing/etc for efficient faring, XPing and exploration.  Honestly looking back the things that drove me crazy kept me plaing.  Rotting at a dungeon while LFG while gladly chatting with the community, Death was detrimental not a pointless try again… made you think twice, you needed a core group to get the good crafting items, gear and quest items, a well thought out character build would stomp a lets put everything into one stat char.  Etc etc….  I may just be old school when it comes to this but things like this keep a player base hooked…  

  BrianDivision

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/13
Posts: 3

2/06/13 2:36:46 PM#80

Do TESO have the balls to make endgame PVP? I mean REAL endgame PvP.

Full Loot.

I can picture it now, riding along into PVP where your adrenaline actually goes up because you have a worthy opponent who just might take that epic sword you decided to take deep into Cyrodil to sing songs of victory.

Don't ask what you have to lose, ask what you have to gain:

Full Loot gives longetivity, Full Loot gives epic wins, Full Loot gives losses someone will talk about and rage about for years.

You don't wanna be left with that dissatisfied feeling when you enter the battlefield that all your kit and your unrealistically "immortal" horse is nice and safe? Then pass this on.

Yeah. Full Loot is endgame and longetivity :)

 

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