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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Come on in, the water is fine...

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105 posts found
  bliss14

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 530

Ahh devil ether.

5/06/14 5:31:39 PM#81
Originally posted by mbd1968
Originally posted by cheyane
Do you guys recall that cool WoW Druid quest where you had to swim into the sea to get a piece of sunken thing to for the waterform. It was exciting to do that quest the first time. Underwater content .

Yeah... along with the level 60 Warlock and Paladin epic mount quests... when WoW was fun to play.

Dem were da days...what a great feeling finally getting that 'lock mount was.

  Skymourne

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 367

5/06/14 5:57:51 PM#82

 My grief with them is it's not the moving on that upsets me... it's the trashing of the game on the way out.  I have a hard time seeing why people can't just leave a game if they don't like it.  Why trash it?  Why do some continually trash something months after leaving?

Well, aside from my earlier reply being a little heated, your question i quoted is the eternal question for all games i suppose.  I believe that the answer is simple.  People either didn't like the product, felt let down by the company, or didn't think that what they invested was worth the money they spent on it and the come to say something about it.  The problem seems to be that many can't just come and say something about it and then leave, but they stay and "hate" on it repeatedly, mainly because they are still very upset about it and still feel the need to vent their frustrations and maybe warn others who play the games they do for similar reasons.  

The only time i reply is if i see someone being unreasonable to others over their opinion.  This goes both ways.  People can white-knight for a game pretty hard as well, and that is equally as atrocious as any hater on this website.  It's just as obnoxious as the negativity.  I believe people reacted negatively to your original post because it came off as pretentious and challenging, dismissing the problems with the game and telling people to spend their money anyway on a product that needs some very critical work.  The reason you see a lot of hate is because a lot of people bought this game, were sorely disappointed with many aspects of it and were likely convinced to buy it from opinions like yours.  They got burned by the game, and they come here to vent their frustrations only to get told they are vile and immature people because they don't agree with your opinion.

  strangepowers

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 605

SCAD Animation-Film-F/X

5/06/14 6:01:33 PM#83

I was bothered by the water quality and had the beach removed.

The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3180

5/06/14 6:09:40 PM#84

I used to be a swimmer like you, then I took a shark to the knee...sorry I couldn't resist lol.

 

I'm having a good time in ESO.  It's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but it's the FOTM to bash ESO. So I just ignore the bashing.  Next up is Wildstar,  everyone with switch and start bashing it instead lol.

 

Edit: If you like to RP, this is a pretty good game, there are lots of emotes, and RP addons that help a lot.  It's no Lotro (yet), but I hope they expand on the emotes, and maybe make /lute /flute /drum sync up so you can play together.  I have a good time roleplaying my vampire lord :D

  Voqar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 481

5/06/14 6:27:25 PM#85
Originally posted by DMKano
 
 

At this point the vast majority of those interested have taken a swim got out and left the beach.

(such is the nature of sub MMOs - retention rates suck, 60%+ never go beyond the first month)

 

...which is why developers should stop trying to make a niche genre be a thing of mass appeal, should stop creating games for people who don't like the genre (of pve grouping), and who should instead focus on making the "real game" (the pve grouping) be the whole game, like in the original days of MMORPGs, and forget about flashy numbers, wider appeal, and just FOCUS on making a focused good game.

 

The retention issue only really applies to modern MMORPGs, aka WoW clones, games that try to be everything to everybody, games that try to cram soloing and pvp minigames into the MMORPG setting, and it's not only obvious but it's been repeatedly proven that you can't make an MMORPG that IS everything to everyone and that the "real game" (the pve grouping) isn't for casuals and is unsuited to people who play "wider appeal" games because they either just don't want to group or can't handle challenges.

 

It really as nothing to do with subscriptions and has everything to do with how these games are designed.  F2P is the worst thing to happen to MMORPGs because F2P MMORPGs have no integrity and appeal to even lower quality players.  Nothing is free.  F2P is about profits, not doing something nice for players.  Somebody is paying - a lot more than they would via subs - to pay to win their scrub self thru games they can't win at without cash or have no patience to actually play.

 

I've only played ESO in beta and the water wasn't fine.  The water was a diluted mix of weak skyrim, weak combat, and weak MMORPG elements.  Combined they didn't make a stronger whole.  Combined they made me wish for ESVI with limited co-op and my ongoing wish for SOME devleoper to make a real MMORPG worthy of being compared to the classics (in a favorable way).

 

Sadly things are going to get worse instead of better.

 

WildStar is yet another WoW clone that not only has a box cost and a sub but has built-in RMT (CREDD) where players can buy as much gold as they like for cash to have highly malleable pay 2 win (why no credible news outlets have covered the joke that is CREDD is beyond me - so many players have no clue what it is or what it means to the integrity and quality of a so-called premium game).

 

EQN is as presented in dream and hot air talk is (well, it's mostly talk thus far) an abomination and insult to EQ(solo-heavy action game - but it has destructable content - because THAT is what's important (if you have ADD)), and since it's going to be F2P at launch it's a steaming pile of crap before it even arrives since F2P is pure trash.   Most MMORPGs at least try to have a sub and pretend to be a quality game, but not EQN or Sony, they just admit up front that their game isn't worth playing for and will cater to losers that want pay 2 win.

 

 

Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  Voqar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 481

5/06/14 6:29:28 PM#86
I still may try ESO eventually since I got a refund on WildStar.  I guess I could wait a few months for it to go F2P since it's not going to be a game worth playing for the long haul regardless.  I really hate cheating, botting, exploiting, and all that and so far things really haven't been all that appealing news-wise regarding ESO, so waiting a while to play it either way seems like a good idea, in hopes of Zenimax cleaning up the cesspool a bit.

Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  Netspook

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/01/07
Posts: 1440

5/06/14 6:48:20 PM#87
Originally posted by krulux
Originally posted by Dakeru

Funny how the OP says people should not complain that they paid for a game and only got a half finished product.

Instead they should keep on paying so the company has a chance to fix the game?

 

Just wow..

 

How's all the complaints working for you? Have they fixed any games lately? Ever?

Paying for the HOPE of something getting better - if we all did that, we would actually signal we were paying because we were satisfied.

For all the crooks out there, you're the ideal target. Naive and easy to fool.

  Skymourne

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 367

5/06/14 6:56:58 PM#88

Paying for the HOPE of something getting better - if we all did that, we would actually signal we were paying because we were satisfied.

For all the crooks out there, you're the ideal target. Naive and easy to fool.

This x1000.  Though we do have to consider that this is also a matter of perception.  What some of us may consider naive, others may feel that putting faith in to the product, which is what companies are accustomed to us doing, is a just cause.  Look i'm not saying the guy shouldn't enjoy the game, i just wish the OP wouldn't have been so pretentious with the post, dismissing real problems with the game, justifying them as normal release problems that everyone should just accept, and buy the game anyway.  It's ridiculous.

 

  krulux

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 230

 
OP  5/06/14 9:29:35 PM#89
Originally posted by Skymourne

Paying for the HOPE of something getting better - if we all did that, we would actually signal we were paying because we were satisfied.

For all the crooks out there, you're the ideal target. Naive and easy to fool.

This x1000.  Though we do have to consider that this is also a matter of perception.  What some of us may consider naive, others may feel that putting faith in to the product, which is what companies are accustomed to us doing, is a just cause.  Look i'm not saying the guy shouldn't enjoy the game, i just wish the OP wouldn't have been so pretentious with the post, dismissing real problems with the game, justifying them as normal release problems that everyone should just accept, and buy the game anyway.  It's ridiculous.

 

 

I disagree the HOPE of something will get better is the point I'm trying to make.  My point is that a game with a healthy PAYING population leads to real fixes and real content expansions.  Games that barely squeak by, so to speak, after the hatewagon has pulled out of town are left with low populations and never reach their potential. The real gamers left playing end up settling for mediocrity.  <see SWTOR or FFXIV>

 

The true naivety taking place with today's typical gamer is believing that a MMO can launch without some issues, or the game has to ship with less than "normal" release problems.  That is ridiculous.  Another ridiculousness that seems to be the trend for the past few years is the outright trollish posts that some make that are simply inaccurate or outright false.  This practice has begun to spill over into game reviews from former trusted and respected sites.  Heaven help us if the ugly act of sabotage trolling or worse taking a payoff from a competitor is becoming commonplace.  (looking at you Tom's Hardware!)

 

I admit my posts often smack of pretentiousness...Sorry if I seem to look down my nose at some.  But I've seen the decline of the MMO community fall into the hell that it is now.  I've been playing and paying for MMO games for years.  I know how good we used to have it.  I suppose one can become jaded on either side of the fence... troll or fanboy... but few can deny the level of malevolence often found in a typical post on most "game" boards, with ESO as the topic or not.  It was not always like this.  What's changed?

I can remember back when you could find real discussions on discussions boards... People actually talked about the game, tactics and planning.  Now day's it's 90% "I hate this" or "This game sucks!".  Can you not see the harm it causes?

 

 

 

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1094

5/06/14 9:31:19 PM#90
Originally posted by jdlamson75
I had my trunks on and jumped in; then, shrinkage.

Boom. Nailed it.

  Skymourne

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 367

5/07/14 1:52:05 AM#91

 

I disagree the HOPE of something will get better is the point I'm trying to make.  My point is that a game with a healthy PAYING population leads to real fixes and real content expansions.  Games that barely squeak by, so to speak, after the hatewagon has pulled out of town are left with low populations and never reach their potential. The real gamers left playing end up settling for mediocrity. 

 

The true naivety taking place with today's typical gamer is believing that a MMO can launch without some issues, or the game has to ship with less than "normal" release problems.  That is ridiculous.  Another ridiculousness that seems to be the trend for the past few years is the outright trollish posts that some make that are simply inaccurate or outright false.  This practice has begun to spill over into game reviews from former trusted and respected sites.  Heaven help us if the ugly act of sabotage trolling or worse taking a payoff from a competitor is becoming commonplace.  (looking at you Tom's Hardware!)

 

I admit my posts often smack of pretentiousness...Sorry if I seem to look down my nose at some.  But I've seen the decline of the MMO community fall into the hell that it is now.  I've been playing and paying for MMO games for years.  I know how good we used to have it.  I suppose one can become jaded on either side of the fence... troll or fanboy... but few can deny the level of malevolence often found in a typical post on most "game" boards, with ESO as the topic or not.  It was not always like this.  What's changed?

I can remember back when you could find real discussions on discussions boards... People actually talked about the game, tactics and planning.  Now day's it's 90% "I hate this" or "This game sucks!".  Can you not see the harm it causes?

 

 

 

To me it is about extremes on both sides.  There's no way that a positive post is going to remain unscathed for long.  Someone, with their opinion, is going to come in and wreck in pretty hard.  The same goes for negative posts.  The knights ride in valiantly to defend it.   People have an angle, nearly all of the time it seems, thus this is what we have now.  It is sad, and i do agree with you to some degree.  10 and 15 years ago we could come to a place like this and have civil discussion, but that was when the internet was still "clean" so to speak.  The rise of online gaming and online interaction with social media has interconnected us all, the best and the worst and everyone else in between.  There is no fix.  

Just think about it.  freshman entering high school this year were born after Everquest and UO had already been around.  It's not going to improve.  You are right though.  It does cause a great deal of harm.  The only way to keep things clean is for forums like these to have fairly extreme sets of rules.  Forums for complaining and forums for positive talk.  Keep them separated with immediate ban fear for either side swimming in the other's "pool" and there's a perfect utopia right?

Not really.  I don't know.  That just doesn't seem right either.

 

  Canibaloler

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/13
Posts: 58

5/07/14 2:01:41 AM#92
Originally posted by Myrdynn

in before, but you cant swim in ESO

 

You won the internetz  ...sir!

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

5/07/14 5:09:17 AM#93

"I used to be a swimmer like you, then I took a shark bite to the knee."

I preferred this one of Gravarg's which I have only slightly paraphrased.

The idea that a P2P MMO gets better as its funding comes in each month is not exactly a big secret. Already the bugs are dropping away, I have not had a gold spam for four days and the bots have all but gone. I had trouble finding the boss in a dungeon the other day because there were no bots. :)

  loulaki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 811

5/07/14 5:14:29 AM#94
Originally posted by krulux

Picture this:  A crowd of people on a beach, yelling to a crowd of people in the water....

"You can't have any fun in the water!"

"I don't like this beach, my old beach was much better!"

"Don't go in the water, the sharks will get you!"

"Don't go swimming there, you won't have any fun!"

"It's too cold to have fun in the water, you'll freeze!"

 

A good number of folks on the beach have their trunks on, but yet they don't seem to like swimming.  The folks on the beach can't seem to understand how anyone could enjoy swimming here.  Some folks hear the yelling and indeed are getting out... But yet there are plenty, and I mean plenty, of folks still in the water and don't seem to hear all the yelling.

This is Elder Scrolls Online.

 

Like many of you... I've played a lot of MMO's over the years, my first being in 1999.  I've seen and done just about everything that can be done in a MMO.  Does ESO measure up to what I think it should be?  No, it does not.  Given time, could it grow to be better?  Yes, yes it could.  For those who care about MMO's, and care about ESO, we need to support it and give it time to grow... and some of us just need to take off the rose-colored glasses and learn to like again.

I won't try to say what is good or bad about the game. I feel it is good enough to stand on its own merit.  I like a good deal of what I've seen so far... but it does need some work.  I do feel they have a solid platform to build something good.

I realize that complaining about everything is in vogue these days.  But seriously, if you can't find online fun in a game like Elder Scrolls Online, then you may want to evaluate your position as a MMO'er.  Is the game perfect?  No, but what game is?  We've all got opinions and we may not like the same things.  That's fine I suppose...

 

I posted this thread for those that have their trunks on and are looking to go swimming - but are still standing the beach... 

Come on in, the water is fine.  

 

"Shallow, generic, bland, meh, flavorless, vapid, uninspiring, monotonous, ho hum, pedestrian, plodding, mundane, trite, empty, devoid. I’m terribly reminded of the seminal 80s flick “The Neverending Story”, where hero Bastian fights to save Fantasia from “The Nothing”, an elemental force of the absence of content that ate through pages of interesting story and engaging plot. The Elder Scrolls Online is the game you’d get if The Nothing had won and decided to release an MMO based on a best-selling gaming franchise."

 

 source

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

5/07/14 5:57:56 AM#95

loulaki, do you believe that any P2P MMO released has ever deserved that sort of description? Does that not make you think 'hang on, is there a game ever released that was as bad as that reviewer is suggesting?' Do a string of ranting negative adjectives not make you question the validity of a statement? Which in turn makes you realise that Tom's review is cobblers.

I see from checking your previous posts you are a fan of GW2 and AA. Need I say more?

  askdaboss

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 429

5/07/14 6:19:08 AM#96
Originally posted by krulux

I disagree the HOPE of something will get better is the point I'm trying to make.  My point is that a game with a healthy PAYING population leads to real fixes and real content expansions.  Games that barely squeak by, so to speak, after the hatewagon has pulled out of town are left with low populations and never reach their potential. The real gamers left playing end up settling for mediocrity. 

 The true naivety taking place with today's typical gamer is believing that a MMO can launch without some issues, or the game has to ship with less than "normal" release problems.  That is ridiculous. 

Personally, my time is precious. I think you are wasting your time playing an inferior, unfinished product.

There is a massive opportunity cost playing (and paying for) ESO.

Opportunity Cost: The cost of an alternative that must be forgone in order to pursue a certain action. Put another way, the benefits you could have received by taking an alternative action.

 

There are thousands of other activities that just "work" without hassle, for the same price or cheaper, that I could be doing instead of playing ESO. There are thousands of games that just "work", without the need for an hypothetical fix and that are available - out there - already.

This is what ESO is competing with, not just with itself.

 

For me, the best option is holding off until I can play a polished product, that is competitive with other activities I could do instead.

This is why I am holding off for the moment.

 

I am glad you are holding with the game on so that later, if they fix things, I can enjoy the game as well. Thank you.

If you don't want to pay for the game any more, that's fine. There will still be thousands of things to do with or without ESO.

  Kickaxe

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 85

5/07/14 6:52:07 AM#97
Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
Originally posted by Kickaxe
Does anybody have a source for average retention numbers for MMORPGs?  I'm not having much luck finding anything terribly reputable.

Gamasutra used to have such numbers, but I haven't checked back on that site in years (used to be one of the original members).  They have long since reorganized their site several times and I have no idea what has been archived and what is still available for general search.

However, for a quick look, without even trying hard, I just googled "retention rates for MMORPGs":

For Social Games:
"An appropriate benchmark for duration is somewhere between two months and six months. That implies a churn of 15%-50% and a retention rate of 50-85%. According to flurry, for iOS and Android apps, 24% of customers continue using after three months. After 6 months, this percent shrinks to 14%, and, by 12 months, only 4% are left.
 
Raf Keustermanns of Plumbee also stated at the Social Games Summit 2011 that any dev should expect to lose 96% of their user base within 12 months. Playnomics have found that approximately 85% of players do not return after the first day."

From right here on MMORPG.com:
"...player retention rates, or even initial vs concurrent subscriber values, should be the governing factor in how successful an MMORPG is, because that by definition is how these games operate.

The example that many people seem to cite for 'failures' is Warhammer Online. They boasted 1.2 million boxsales, and the server closures and mergers was making headlines a few months later, and we can gather that the current subscriber base is somewhere around 300k, which is a comfortable operating margin for all purposes. Age of Conan went through a similar phenomenon, so let us say that the retention ratio for these games is .. 300,000 / 1,200,000 = 0.25."

(Academic study) Portland State University:
Long term study of behavior in Eve Online (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.thefengs.com/wuchang/work/cstrike/netgames07_long.pdf

(Academic study) University of Califoornia, Irvine:
Long term study of behavior in WoW (beware: heavy reading)
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~tdebeauv/files/2011-WoWretention.pdf

http://www.manaobscura.com/2012/01/20/swtor-the-retention-rate-question/
"...analysts have historically pegged Warcarft’s churn rate at around the same as Netflix with 4-5%. That article’s from nearly 5 years back though, so it’s unclear if this figure is still accurate. There’s also some research from Nick Yee (a research scientist at PARC). His own research (PDF link, ‘Building an MMO With Mass Appeal’, pg 292)  indicates that “only 40% of new subscribers remain in a game for more than two months”.

http://gamepolitics.com/2012/08/14/developer-thirty-percent-player-retention-rate-success-free-play-game
"Total War designer Jan van der Crabben offered a dire prediction for companies thinking of swimming in the free-to-play pond: expect a 70 percent drop in initial registered users.
 
From Gamescom:

"Crabben said that player retention is key to a free-to-play title's success and that most free-to-play games lose a freshly registered play in the first three minutes of play. If that player sticks around for more than four days, chances are he or she will be playing for a long time, Crabben says. Crabben added that a 30 percent retention rate for users should be considered very successful for any free-to-play game.
 
He goes on to say that the reward system in games like World of Warcraft is the best method for retaining players. In Wow he says users "kill stuff to get better to get more abilities to kill more stuff."

Nice work, Yoda.  Unsurprisingly, my google search yielded the same results.  Kind of all over the place numbers of dubious or not generic enough nature to contradict or verify DMKano's 60% number, was my feeling in not posting those links.  That Portland University Eve Online study was an interesting read, though.

But I think there is enough data there to show DMKano was not pulling numbers out of nowhere, anyway.

Originally posted by gervaise1

Not that many people buy a beach pass at all.

No numbers for TESO of course but regarding "the nature of sub based mmos" based on actual numbers released by developers / publishers:

SWTRO: 2.1M sales, 1.7M subscribers of which "just about half" were recurring subs; so 850k/2.1M = 40.4%

WAR: 750-800k initial sales; initial subs 300k. So 40% and below.

AoC: 800-850k initial sales; no actual initial sub numbers but based on their revenue results (back in 2008) max. initial subs - assuming 100% of the increased revenue was AoC related was c. 375k. So about 45% maximum.

So no smoke. Infact SoE, on one of EQ1's anniversary's (5th?), said that monthly churn was 60%. That's 60% loss a month. Which is why there were so many new xpacs - to bring people back.

 

And "the nature of sub based mmos" is that numbers continue to fall with drops after +1 month, +3 months and +6 months - when sub 20% is the norm. Again based on published data.

Doesn't mean that TESO isn't a "great game" just that "most people get bored and move on".

 

Edit: in a Gamasutra article just before TESO launched the writer - a game dev involved in publishing - said that they were using a 20% initial retention figure in their cost modelling.

 

 

A Grim reality for MMORPGs, indeed.  I think however, that part of the current problem for new MMOs like ESO is that SWTOR and GW2, and to a lesser extent FFXIV and Rift--perhaps a few others, are actually doing decently well in player churn and acquisition.  Definitely hard for me to support that belief since their is hardly any good insider data available, but I sure don't have any impression that ESO is breaking any sales records.  Recent WoW numbers appear more stable than the last couple of years also.  So, maybe there's just less MMORPG inclined players for the newer offerings.  More speculations for our oversaturated in speculation discussions.  :p

  Netspook

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/01/07
Posts: 1440

5/08/14 9:33:48 PM#98
Originally posted by krulux
Originally posted by Skymourne

Paying for the HOPE of something getting better - if we all did that, we would actually signal we were paying because we were satisfied.

For all the crooks out there, you're the ideal target. Naive and easy to fool.

This x1000.  Though we do have to consider that this is also a matter of perception.  What some of us may consider naive, others may feel that putting faith in to the product, which is what companies are accustomed to us doing, is a just cause.  Look i'm not saying the guy shouldn't enjoy the game, i just wish the OP wouldn't have been so pretentious with the post, dismissing real problems with the game, justifying them as normal release problems that everyone should just accept, and buy the game anyway.  It's ridiculous.

 

 

I disagree the HOPE of something will get better is the point I'm trying to make.  My point is that a game with a healthy PAYING population leads to real fixes and real content expansions.  Games that barely squeak by, so to speak, after the hatewagon has pulled out of town are left with low populations and never reach their potential. The real gamers left playing end up settling for mediocrity. 

 

So basically it's ok for you that half-finished games are released, because we should keep on paying till it's playable.

No wonder we see so many crappy releases, when people like you support it with heart, soul and wallet.

If a company can't deliver quality worth paying for (not talking about ESO, but in general), then we shouldn't buy it. It's really that simple. It's even worse to suggest we should pay for "potential". First of all, that would be paying for something we MAY get, when we should be judging what we DO get, and decide if that's worth paying for as it is. Second, we would have to support EVERY game, because regardless of how bad they are, they all have some kind of "potential".

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

5/09/14 8:57:36 AM#99

If you were correct Netspook no one would buy a product from EA. That's the way gaming works these days, funnily enough MMO's are held to account as much as solo games when it comes to launch polish.

MMOs have tightened up over the years to please players who expect them to release like solo games. While solo games have increasingly over the years needed updates to get them working 100%. There is a certain irony there.

Preorder is the big culprit here of course, it lets gaming companies get away with poor releases. They will work fine a couple of days down the line, or weeks; in the case of a couple of EA titles I had it was six months down the line.

  SpottyGekko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

5/09/14 9:26:55 AM#100
Originally posted by Netspook
Originally posted by krulux
Originally posted by Skymourne

Paying for the HOPE of something getting better - if we all did that, we would actually signal we were paying because we were satisfied.

For all the crooks out there, you're the ideal target. Naive and easy to fool.

This x1000.  Though we do have to consider that this is also a matter of perception.  What some of us may consider naive, others may feel that putting faith in to the product, which is what companies are accustomed to us doing, is a just cause.  Look i'm not saying the guy shouldn't enjoy the game, i just wish the OP wouldn't have been so pretentious with the post, dismissing real problems with the game, justifying them as normal release problems that everyone should just accept, and buy the game anyway.  It's ridiculous.

 

 

I disagree the HOPE of something will get better is the point I'm trying to make.  My point is that a game with a healthy PAYING population leads to real fixes and real content expansions.  Games that barely squeak by, so to speak, after the hatewagon has pulled out of town are left with low populations and never reach their potential. The real gamers left playing end up settling for mediocrity. 

 

So basically it's ok for you that half-finished games are released, because we should keep on paying till it's playable.

No wonder we see so many crappy releases, when people like you support it with heart, soul and wallet.

If a company can't deliver quality worth paying for (not talking about ESO, but in general), then we shouldn't buy it. It's really that simple. It's even worse to suggest we should pay for "potential". First of all, that would be paying for something we MAY get, when we should be judging what we DO get, and decide if that's worth paying for as it is. Second, we would have to support EVERY game, because regardless of how bad they are, they all have some kind of "potential".

Lol, if you only paid $60+sub to "be allowed to beta test ESO", then you've clearly got a fantastic deal ! 

 

A few months ago, people were rushing to pay $199 to ALPHA test EQN:Landmark. Right now, people are lining-up to give Trion $150 for the huge privilige of ALPHA testing Archeage...

 

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