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MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 04/04/14)  | Pub:Bethesda Softworks
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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » Reviews & Impressions » This MMO Doesn't Have Much Re-playability, Not The Type Of MMO You Play for 2-5 Years!

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94 posts found
  ohioastro

Elite Member

Joined: 4/07/14
Posts: 376

4/29/14 8:57:19 AM#41

I find that sandbox games get boring far more quickly than ones with stories.  In MMORPG it seems as if "sandbox" is a glowing term of praise and "themepark" is something that people say with a sneer.  Well, not everyone likes to play Minecraft.  And sandbox games are limited by the tools that they provide and the structures in the game; killing mobs without a reason is not more engaging than following a story line.

My real issue with MMOs is that the story lines have become so sloppy and thin, and the things that you have to do to progress them are so repetitive and trivial.  In that respect, ESO stands out in the quality of the stories and in tying the tasks to the story lines in some coherent way.

There are 300+ hours of things to do at launch.  If you play 10 hours a week that's eight months of things to do, and that is a hell of a lot of content for a newly released game.  If you don't like the style, of course, that's a defect.  But for people who do that's a lot - and we'll have to see what else they add.  The longer term game is still being formed, with PvP and adventure zones.  But I'm perfectly OK just noodling around for a few months and letting them shake out the end game structures.

  sketocafe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 657

4/29/14 9:12:04 AM#42

I've yet to see anyone who claims that this is singleplayer or doesn't do enough to encourage grouping explain themselves. You're just stating it as if it's a given without backing up your assertions. I've grouped all over the fucking place while leveling. In quests, for the skull and crossbones bosses, for public dungeons, in delves, just while doing quests. I've worked with other players more for the leveling content of this game than I have in any other MMO I've played. Except EVE but that's a sandbox. And it doesn't really have leveling content. Just grinding content. Grinding is boring without people to talk to.

What exactly is it you want? Quests so hard they can't be done solo? That may work at launch but even with the megaserver design players who come in late will be punished by this. You don't need a mechanic to force you into grouping, just group.

  cmorris975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/10
Posts: 107

4/29/14 9:16:44 AM#43
Agree with OP.  In my case I couldn't even play it a month (quest-centric gameplay, lack of community, no meaningful death penalty, on rails zone structure, fast travel trivializing movement around the game world being a few of the issues).
  Kuinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2093

4/29/14 9:56:17 AM#44
Originally posted by Azzras
Originally posted by Nemesis7884
has nothing to do with trolling - its a simple fact that themepark mmos rely on constant new content being released - name one themepark where this has been different?

Sandbox MMOs aren't that popular or there would be more.

Sandbox MMOs would be easier to develop and maintain, yet most all MMOs are still Themeparks.

Sandbox may be what you like, but it seems there are a LOT of people who prefer the other.

There isn't a single big-budget/high-quality sandbox, so we don't know actually. Those are your assumptions, when we get big sandbox games and more variety in sandboxes we can actually start talking about the subject with any reference to reality.

 

We've been getting years and years new themeparks based on Wow's success, and because there's guaranteed initial sales before the unavoidable "I'm not satisfied with this game" (you can replace the word 'game' with 'themepark').

 

It's a lot scarier for a studio to start working on a huge sandbox with unknown reception and results, compared to working on a big themepark with at least almost guaranteed limited success, and with luck chances for big success (these companies under their delusions aim for that big success, which has not happened since Wow).

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5357

4/29/14 9:58:08 AM#45

Another guy who has joined the site to complain about TESO, once again I have to question the validity of posters who just turn up to slate the game, then if he is like the last two disappear.

This one tells us he has not even played the game after Beta!

I would ask the OP, what is the last MMO you played for five years?

  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

4/29/14 10:00:31 AM#46
Originally posted by Scot

Another guy who has joined the site to complain about TESO, once again I have to question the validity of posters who just turn up to slate the game, then if he is like the last two disappear.

I would ask the OP, what is the last MMO you played for five years?

It's the same people making alt accounts. The posts are the exact same every time. Just ignore them and move on, WildStar comes out soon, they will start blindly hating that with frothing mouths and much nerd rage.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Kuinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2093

4/29/14 10:01:37 AM#47
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by MeridiasBeacon
Originally posted by Yamota
I almost dont believe saying this but, after trying out the boring, repetetive PvP in Cyrodil, I think this games need instanced PvP arenas. I had much more fun in WAR instanced PvP arenas than I have close to in Cyrodil PvP which is all zerg with pointless of flipping keeps back and forth and no side actually seem to score a true victory. And a game where a side can't score a decisive victory is simply no fun.

I wouldn't be surprised if BGs are added. Arena matches should suffice and won't break lore. :)

If they do add arena ever  I hope there is an option for 1vs1 as well.  Gladiator style...

Me too, it's annoying that every game so far which has arena does not have 1v1. "But there's duels, and classes are not balanced 1v1" I dont care, I want to fight 1v1 in arena with rewards, duels does not come even close, and unbalance has very little meaning to me, especially in a game like ESO that has very open character building with tons of abilities coming outside of the chosen class.

  Joejc7135

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 220

4/29/14 10:13:55 AM#48
I tried grouping in ESO but I spent more time fighting to get in the same phase as my group then actually doing content.
  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2928

4/29/14 1:10:41 PM#49
Originally posted by DAS1337
Originally posted by fivoroth
No MMO has enough content to lAst you 2-5years. The only way to play an mmo for this long is if like doing the same content over and over and over again.

I don't get where people get the whole notion that mmos can last for years. That's only if you are content of grinding like crazy and repeating the same content for infinity. It's all grinding for pointless stuff after you go through the real unique content.

You are completely wrong, and it's probably not your fault.  Ultima Online lasted me five years, and it should have been longer.  In fact, it's still running a sub today, and it's been 17 years.  While it's mostly nostalgia, still, you can't really argue with it's success.

 

The game wasn't structured to feed you content.  It was structured to provide you with the tools to create your own.  It also provided you with just as much reward as there was consequence.  Your actions meant something.  You owned a piece of the world, which is lost on most people.  Today, kids consider housing an extension of your bank vault, but it means so much more than that in regards to retention rate.  There were little sub-economies in the game, such as selling mounts and houses for example.  I think having multiple layers of economy is brutally important for the longevity of a game.  Progression came fairly slowly, but not TOO slow to dissuade you from playing.  There was a sense of fear when leaving town, but the 'over the top' view and lack of grouping functionality promoted small group PvP or solo PvP.  You never got caught up in a zerg, and rarely in a situation where you were grossly outnumbered.  

 

Don't get me wrong, that game had a ton of flaws that have been fixed over the years.  But some of the most important things that that game did to bring you into the world and keep you there, are lost to today's MMO developers.  Most of you can't understand, because you think that your game does it best.  You haven't experienced it done right, and it's not your fault.  Though, I've played many typed of MMO's, and I know which one does the best.  There is a reason games in the past often stayed in their prime for years, while games today will be lucky to make it past three months.  

 

It's not because us old timers are wrong.  That much I know.

When I was writing my post, the only two games which I could think of that could be potentially played for ages if they float your boat were UO and EVE online.

UO was actually the very first MMO I tried. I didn't play at release mind you but I really enjoyed it for a few months. I could've probably gone on playing it for ages but it proved way too slow paced for me. UO seemed like a very nice concept at a time, a huge world where you get better by doing things - aka purely skill based progression. I loved the idea but didn't hook me up.

Then I tried EQ and I thought that that game was an abomination. Progress was painfully slow and what you were actually doing felt like ultra mega grinding, aka Lineage 2 style.

I am so sad that WoW decided to copy EQ and not UO. If WoW copied UO, probably the vast majority of MMOs nowadays would be using skill based horizontal progression.

Which oldschool games stayed in their prime for years? What does EQ/DAOC have that current MMOs don't have other than the fact that a lot of you guys started with those games? They had just as much content as current MMOs. But people were willing to do mindless grinding at the time. That's the main difference.

WoW's model must be the best then. Cause it is a game which is kicking everyone's collective asses for over a decade. It must be the best thing since sliced bread if it has such crazy retention.

 

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Moar61

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/14
Posts: 243

4/29/14 1:15:07 PM#50

We'll have to see what the additional content brings, a few smart moves could change that. 

Even so, I'll definitely get my money's worth. Haven't been this into an mmo in quite some time.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5078

4/29/14 2:43:08 PM#51
Originally posted by ImperatorBellus

ESO doesn't really feel like an mmo, there is not much incentive to group and no world pvp outside Cyrodiil, you only group for dungeons and pvp groups. It is a good game but it seems like it is the type of game you beat and never touch again instead of an MMO that captures your attention for playing even after you complete end game content. 

Lets say someone played this slowly and completed all the content and pve quests in cyodiil and achieved the top veteran rank. This would take about 1-3 months depending on how long you play each day. After you do this, you are not gonna wanna repeat it with a new class, not me anyway, I hate repeating quests in Elder Scrolls games. So now you can run dungeons and get some gear, they also have the adventure zones but those will get old quick, there isn't many but will be more with content updates and the eventual expansion.

Still, I like PVE in a MMO but what keeps me playing long term is PVP, the pvp in this is simply repetitive! It is fun at first but gets boring quickly, I didn't sub after playing the beta because of this. If you have played large scale pvp games before as I have, like planetside 2 then your standards will be very high. Planetside 2 has a lot of variety and almost every single battle feels new and different, it only feels repetitive if you are zerging the enemy and outnumber them a lot, but if you can find big battles where both sides are almost even or smaller battles like that then it doesn't feel repetitive at all and always feels new, every battle progresses different with the positions of the enemy and your team and coordination among the group if you are in an organized outfit or even just in the chat.

ESO pvp has no strategy a all, its just a zerg vs zerg fest. All you do is seige a keep, then rush it, that is it, it gets old quickly because the Terrain has almost no variety, it all looks similar, there are no vehicles or air vehicles (obviously not because its a fantasy mmo but still, it makes it have less variety).  Simply put, ESO is not for anyone who likes PVP more than PVE in a MMO, there are no arenas, no battlegrounds, it isn't truly open world pvp since all pvp is limited to Cryodiil and it just becomes a zerg fest in the end. 

If you want good pvp, play planetside 2 or wait for everquest next, warhammer 40,000 eternal crusade and Wildstar.

I'll be critical of ESO where criticism is due, but it's not here.

Any game that tries to reduce the need for alts and make a game that tries to keep the focus on one character is good IMO.

 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 730

4/29/14 2:51:07 PM#52

I'm personally struggling to log in after playing for like a week. The quest grind with little reward from other features makes it a bit of a bland experience while leveling. I'm gonna continue trying to push to 50, though and finish the story.

Yes, this is coming from someone who has read everything in the quests, and even the optional information not necessary to completing them (for most anyway). There are a few exciting quests, but most aren't a lot of fun or rewarding.

Enjoying the exploration, though, for what it's worth.

  Bad.dog

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 1145

4/29/14 4:43:31 PM#53
Originally posted by Joejc7135
I tried grouping in ESO but I spent more time fighting to get in the same phase as my group then actually doing content.

That's not something I'd brag about it takes about 10 seconds to get everyone into the same phase

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2928

4/29/14 6:09:14 PM#54
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by Joejc7135
I tried grouping in ESO but I spent more time fighting to get in the same phase as my group then actually doing content.

That's not something I'd brag about it takes about 10 seconds to get everyone into the same phase

10 sec? More like 5 :D

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by ImperatorBellus

ESO doesn't really feel like an mmo, there is not much incentive to group and no world pvp outside Cyrodiil, you only group for dungeons and pvp groups. It is a good game but it seems like it is the type of game you beat and never touch again instead of an MMO that captures your attention for playing even after you complete end game content. 

Lets say someone played this slowly and completed all the content and pve quests in cyodiil and achieved the top veteran rank. This would take about 1-3 months depending on how long you play each day. After you do this, you are not gonna wanna repeat it with a new class, not me anyway, I hate repeating quests in Elder Scrolls games. So now you can run dungeons and get some gear, they also have the adventure zones but those will get old quick, there isn't many but will be more with content updates and the eventual expansion.

Still, I like PVE in a MMO but what keeps me playing long term is PVP, the pvp in this is simply repetitive! It is fun at first but gets boring quickly, I didn't sub after playing the beta because of this. If you have played large scale pvp games before as I have, like planetside 2 then your standards will be very high. Planetside 2 has a lot of variety and almost every single battle feels new and different, it only feels repetitive if you are zerging the enemy and outnumber them a lot, but if you can find big battles where both sides are almost even or smaller battles like that then it doesn't feel repetitive at all and always feels new, every battle progresses different with the positions of the enemy and your team and coordination among the group if you are in an organized outfit or even just in the chat.

ESO pvp has no strategy a all, its just a zerg vs zerg fest. All you do is seige a keep, then rush it, that is it, it gets old quickly because the Terrain has almost no variety, it all looks similar, there are no vehicles or air vehicles (obviously not because its a fantasy mmo but still, it makes it have less variety).  Simply put, ESO is not for anyone who likes PVP more than PVE in a MMO, there are no arenas, no battlegrounds, it isn't truly open world pvp since all pvp is limited to Cryodiil and it just becomes a zerg fest in the end. 

If you want good pvp, play planetside 2 or wait for everquest next, warhammer 40,000 eternal crusade and Wildstar.

I'll be critical of ESO where criticism is due, but it's not here.

Any game that tries to reduce the need for alts and make a game that tries to keep the focus on one character is good IMO.

 

I agree. That's why the secret world appealed to me so much. I think ESO would be even better if all 12 class trees were available to your toon. Would've made for some really interesting combinations.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  ImperatorBellus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/14
Posts: 28

 
OP  4/29/14 6:34:12 PM#55
Originally posted by ohioastro

I find that sandbox games get boring far more quickly than ones with stories.  In MMORPG it seems as if "sandbox" is a glowing term of praise and "themepark" is something that people say with a sneer.  Well, not everyone likes to play Minecraft.  And sandbox games are limited by the tools that they provide and the structures in the game; killing mobs without a reason is not more engaging than following a story line.

My real issue with MMOs is that the story lines have become so sloppy and thin, and the things that you have to do to progress them are so repetitive and trivial.  In that respect, ESO stands out in the quality of the stories and in tying the tasks to the story lines in some coherent way.

There are 300+ hours of things to do at launch.  If you play 10 hours a week that's eight months of things to do, and that is a hell of a lot of content for a newly released game.  If you don't like the style, of course, that's a defect.  But for people who do that's a lot - and we'll have to see what else they add.  The longer term game is still being formed, with PvP and adventure zones.  But I'm perfectly OK just noodling around for a few months and letting them shake out the end game structures.

 

Not exactly, most MMO gamers play 1 MMO at least 3 hours a day. That is really only 3-4 months of playing, I doubt there is more than 300 hours of things to do. There is just not enough incentive to keep playing this game once you complete all the content, even though I love Elder Scrolls games and have been playing since Oblivion, I don't think I will buy this game, even if the PVE experience is great, it is just not worth it for a MMO.

  ImperatorBellus

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/14
Posts: 28

 
OP  4/29/14 6:38:10 PM#56
Originally posted by Necropsie

In that matter, ESO makes the same mistake that all mmo's released after WoW did: It puts you on stage for the story.

You are the hero. You are the world savior. Everything shapes around you. Your choices do matter.

Thing is, these are bad ideas in a mmo. They are the core aspects of a single player rpg, but not a mmo.

Think of WoW: You start the game as a nobody. There is a big story going on but you are not the part of it, you just watch (in the beginning of the game at least). You try to explore. Nobody takes you serious. Some stories expand in front of your eyes but you just watch. You are just another peon in a very very big universe, story continues you are there or not. You are unimportant.

Actually, this is the epic feeling of WoW we all try to replace.

I believe this is the "secret" of WoW which no other game managed to do. All others went for a "you are the king of the world, story is what you want to be" approach and failed.

I sincerely believe something this simple lies behind the success of WoW.

Even the most succesful clone of WoW (RIFT) couldn't do that. You were not a nobody in that game too.

Want to have a success in an mmo? Do not use single player oriented stories. Because once we finish those (SwTor, ESO, etc.) there really is nothing else left to do.

The true WoW killer game will be made under this idea. While all others will just simply fail.

EDIT: WildStar is probably the only game that uses this "you are nobody" idea but it will fail too: It's universe is so silly that you don't get the "epic" feeling.

Yea, I hate that so many MMO's try to make you the center of the story, it is really stupid since everyone else is experiencing this same story, ESO does it, Star Trek Online does this, TERA probably does to. I agree, Wildstar will probably fail, even though when they fix the UI, the pvp might be really fun but the graphics really do take away any sense of an epic world, its even more cartoon like than world of warcrap. I don't know why these stupid devs are going with such childish graphics so much, the main player base of a MMO are not younger teens, most younger teens are playing on consoles. 

The only game we can rest hope in capturing the "epic you are nobody" theme as well as WoW did is Everquest Next, I just wish they would do away with the cartoon like player models but at least the game world isn't cartoon like and the graphics are simply amazing.

  Englefield

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/12
Posts: 23

4/30/14 8:36:03 AM#57
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

 

 

Do you only buy single-player games that have "longevity" ? Why should an MMORPG be held to different standards ?

 

This was a strange thing to say. If MMO developers expect us to fork out $15 a month it had better have some longevity and if they expect to hook my sub I will absolutely hold them to a different standard.

  LordZeik

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/17/08
Posts: 186

4/30/14 8:58:45 AM#58
Originally posted by Englefield
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

 

 

Do you only buy single-player games that have "longevity" ? Why should an MMORPG be held to different standards ?

 

This was a strange thing to say. If MMO developers expect us to fork out $15 a month it had better have some longevity and if they expect to hook my sub I will absolutely hold them to a different standard.

Hate to say it but times are changing. After what Konami did with ground zero I expect more high priced demos in the future. If people will pay 30 dollars for 6 hours of gameplay. What is going to stop someone from paying monthly for something that may or may not have the content you're looking for? I'm personally waiting to see what comes with the craglorn patch. Along with any information on if pvp is getting the imperial city for the 2nd content update. Time will tell if our decisions were the correct ones.

  ohioastro

Elite Member

Joined: 4/07/14
Posts: 376

4/30/14 10:39:09 AM#59
Originally posted by ImperatorBellus
Originally posted by ohioastro

I find that sandbox games get boring far more quickly than ones with stories.  In MMORPG it seems as if "sandbox" is a glowing term of praise and "themepark" is something that people say with a sneer.  Well, not everyone likes to play Minecraft.  And sandbox games are limited by the tools that they provide and the structures in the game; killing mobs without a reason is not more engaging than following a story line.

My real issue with MMOs is that the story lines have become so sloppy and thin, and the things that you have to do to progress them are so repetitive and trivial.  In that respect, ESO stands out in the quality of the stories and in tying the tasks to the story lines in some coherent way.

There are 300+ hours of things to do at launch.  If you play 10 hours a week that's eight months of things to do, and that is a hell of a lot of content for a newly released game.  If you don't like the style, of course, that's a defect.  But for people who do that's a lot - and we'll have to see what else they add.  The longer term game is still being formed, with PvP and adventure zones.  But I'm perfectly OK just noodling around for a few months and letting them shake out the end game structures.

 

Not exactly, most MMO gamers play 1 MMO at least 3 hours a day. That is really only 3-4 months of playing, I doubt there is more than 300 hours of things to do. There is just not enough incentive to keep playing this game once you complete all the content, even though I love Elder Scrolls games and have been playing since Oblivion, I don't think I will buy this game, even if the PVE experience is great, it is just not worth it for a MMO.

Play through all of the quest lines; you'll definitely get your money's worth if you like ES games.  And, yes, there really are 300+ hours of things to do - that's why the MMO crowd are coming in with all of these "boring grind" complaints.  It's because they don't like the quests and stories and view them as junk that they have to suffer through to reach the end game.  If you view them as the game, it's not so awful that there are a lot of them.

  Talemire

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 758

Jesus is Lord.

4/30/14 3:14:50 PM#60
Originally posted by Nemesis7884

what you say is true for most of your recommendations...

look, its a themepark mmo - themepark mmo live from additional content being released...

sandboxes live from meaningful player interaction - as simple as that...

themeparks will always only have longevity if they a) release more content or b) move more towards sandbox features

This. I would really like Zenimax to go in this direction.

------------------------------
MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

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