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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Target based combat ? Really?

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72 posts found
  Pyuk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 659

10/18/13 3:24:13 PM#41
BECAUSE WoW DOES IT, THAT'S WHY! ESO is the next SWTOR, guaranteed. Makes me sad.

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

10/18/13 5:11:38 PM#42

I cant believe people are comparing teso's projectile combat to chivalry (small instances) and firefall (instant hit bullets).

The system ZoS is using is a happy middle ground, as it would get frustrating for lots of ranged players when up against moving targets, its still real time action combat, but there's a soft lock, which is basically the same as how mass effect 1/2/3 did it with their slower projectiles (and that's a sp game), you still have to aim regardless of if you have someone tab targeted or not, you still have to block/interrupt/dodge at the right time etc, just means your less likely to get screwed by lag

  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1565

10/18/13 5:35:28 PM#43
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by tom_gore
Because it looks like only SOE can make FPS mechanics work in an MMO (and Aventurine, sort of).

You are forgetting about Firefall and Defiance.

 

And let's not forget The Chronicles Of The Spellborn.

No stats on gear and real aiming in real time.

Bring this game back please.

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  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

10/18/13 5:40:53 PM#44

ya soft-tab targeting for players and hard-tab targeting for mobs. if they shoot at you you cannot dodge or hide behind anything as the missile will go around corners if it has to in order to hit you.

 

i am more disappointed with this game as time goes on. usually its the opposite for me.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

10/18/13 5:50:36 PM#45
For anyone who has seen it in action, does this system sound a lot like what DDO uses for projectile combat?

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  ryacual

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 1

10/19/13 4:39:36 PM#46

I'm not sure what you expect. This game is on consoles too. How can you have no assisted targeting when using a controller. In pvp that would be a huge disadvantage to someone without. Besides it doesn't seem that big of a deal. If it was true aiming everyone would probably never be an archer because they would miss so much when they lag for a spit second or someone simply moves. some games you just take off full speed so you cant lead a still person.  its still a game its not real life so calm down. Having the reticle close sounds exactly like I don't know maybe every COD game. Look you can quick snipe with a bow. No skill so what. Not everyone is interested in lame pvp combat in mmos. It has potential to be fun with blocking but its not going to be skyrim online. I don't even think that was true aiming. Hold button longer and you kill it. Besides tabbing is probably better because you have no peripheral vision on a monitor.  Tabbing is an alternate to turning your head really fast. If you don't like it don't play it. Soft lock = good, arrows bend around objects and corners = bad. or auto hit = bad. It doesn't seem like a big deal unless they have some fully automatic daedric xbow of doom.

If you can't beat the pesky archers and their tab aim then join them or run really really close with a battle axe. Cheer up the mmo community needs this game to succeed. the last decent mmo was uo...so we are lookin at 15 years of mediocrity and wow clones. and whoever said positioning is key is correct. if you cant beat them then hide behind something. Id imagine that if they cannot see you they cannot target you. do aoe spells need a target?

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/19/13 5:27:53 PM#47
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

but thats not true is it

planetside and darkfall are real time

rift & swtor are tab target

tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

 

  deakon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/11
Posts: 588

10/19/13 5:37:31 PM#48
Originally posted by goldtoof
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

but thats not true is it

planetside and darkfall are real time

rift & swtor are tab target

tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

 

 

 

Bullets are easier to do though (especially in games where the combat is 99% ranged) as they hit pretty much instantly and don't need to rely on realistic physics, or need anywhere near the accuracy (leading shots etc), the slower the projectile moves the harder it is to hit a target that can move, once you add latency to that your looking at a very frustrating time for a lot of ranged players

  irnbru69

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/09/11
Posts: 36

10/19/13 5:56:06 PM#49
RaiderZ has real aiming, so does fallen earth.. =/
  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/19/13 6:16:49 PM#50
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by goldtoof
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

but thats not true is it

planetside and darkfall are real time

rift & swtor are tab target

tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

 

 

 

Bullets are easier to do though (especially in games where the combat is 99% ranged) as they hit pretty much instantly and don't need to rely on realistic physics, or need anywhere near the accuracy (leading shots etc), the slower the projectile moves the harder it is to hit a target that can move, once you add latency to that your looking at a very frustrating time for a lot of ranged players

tab target is decided at the moment you press the button, that slow fireball will hit the target regardless - hence people shooting them backwards and stuff in games like wow.  There is no projectile to follow in a tab target game, there is no collision detection, they just need to animate its journey.

The projectiles in PS2 and darkfall are not instantaneous, the have a travel time and a parabolic curve.

  Vidir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

10/19/13 6:25:15 PM#51
Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

What happened to aiming?

What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

 

 

What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

Some people like the old style targetting in mmo's. I cant see how aiming makes mmo's better, it seem more like a fps then.

Active blocking has allways been ther but in a different form you used a skill to block an attack from a foe.

I would rather keep the old style than fusing the mmorpg's with fps.

 

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

10/19/13 6:32:08 PM#52
I think your point is kinda funny.  If anything, having action based combat would make it a clone/copy as that's the mainstream these days.  This especially made me chuckle: " In 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?"  Those real-time combat games are all copies too.  lol

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/19/13 6:51:58 PM#53
Originally posted by Vidir
Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

What happened to aiming?

What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

 

 

What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

Some people like the old style targetting in mmo's. I cant see how aiming makes mmo's better, it seem more like a fps then.

Active blocking has allways been ther but in a different form you used a skill to block an attack from a foe.

I would rather keep the old style than fusing the mmorpg's with fps.

 

i would rather different developers do both and perhaps some others come up with a brand new system.  Variety is good.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

10/19/13 6:57:12 PM#54
"If your reticle is clearly on one target but your target-aid is on another target, you will still hit the target your reticle is on."

Sounds great on paper, but in the case of one enemy targetted directly behind another, this could be confusing. Technically the reticle is in the right spot, so who gets hit? The untargetted one in front or the targetted one in behind?

"In the case of monsters that are closely stacked on each other, the one you have ‘selected’ is the one your attacks will hit."

This makes it sound like the one in behind would get hit, which now makes me think enemies might not be solid. Is this true?

This system sounds a bit... awkward.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Kayo45

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/13
Posts: 296

10/21/13 11:44:01 AM#55
Oh god get over it! I dont see anyone whining about every single FPS game because its "just another point and click," do you?
  Prepared

Novice Member

Joined: 3/11/13
Posts: 87

10/22/13 1:57:22 AM#56
Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

What happened to aiming?

What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

 

 

What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

 

This is GREAT NEWS!  I hadn't been paying attention to Elder Scrolls Online for awhile given that their targeting system was based on the failed aiming method used in Tera.  But if this is true, there is a better chance Elder Scrolls Online will make it as an MMORPG after all.  Seriously, I had written it off entirely as a game I wasn't in the least bit interested because the development team had failed to understand the market for MMOs.

The things that will make this game different from other MMOs:

1. Based on the Elder Scrolls games.  The graphics look great.

2. Three faction based PvP environment instead of the standard two faction PvP system that most MMOs have.

 

All the development team has to do is place every possible feature and option in the game and they will make it huge.  If they do what ANet did with GW2 and decide to not include all of the MMOs features and options out there from the game, they will fail.  Say what you want, but GW2 failed in the goals that Anet had for the game.

 

  wooflikeabear

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/04/13
Posts: 4

10/28/13 3:34:51 PM#57

I just hope their soft-target system makes some allowance for players with higher ping. If you've tried to PvP in Tera (or other FPS crosshair games) with high pings you know what an exercise in frustration that is. This is an illustration of how bad it is for Aussies vs. a player in North America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3v_3X-2ps

There's a reason most MMOs go with target based rather than crosshair aiming. It's to even the playing field between players with high latency and those with fast ping. If you design your game so that only those with ultra-fast ping will be able to successfully PvP or top the damage/healing meters in raids, you're alienating a rather large player base who may not tolerate being treated as second class players just because of their ping.

 

  holdenhamlet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

11/05/13 12:42:34 PM#58
Originally posted by Prepared
Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

What happened to aiming?

What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

 

 

What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

 

This is GREAT NEWS!  I hadn't been paying attention to Elder Scrolls Online for awhile given that their targeting system was based on the failed aiming method used in Tera.  But if this is true, there is a better chance Elder Scrolls Online will make it as an MMORPG after all.  Seriously, I had written it off entirely as a game I wasn't in the least bit interested because the development team had failed to understand the market for MMOs.

The things that will make this game different from other MMOs:

1. Based on the Elder Scrolls games.  The graphics look great.

2. Three faction based PvP environment instead of the standard two faction PvP system that most MMOs have.

 

All the development team has to do is place every possible feature and option in the game and they will make it huge.  If they do what ANet did with GW2 and decide to not include all of the MMOs features and options out there from the game, they will fail.  Say what you want, but GW2 failed in the goals that Anet had for the game.

 

You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

More time for SMITE I guess...

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

11/05/13 12:46:48 PM#59


Originally posted by holdenhamlet
You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

More time for SMITE I guess...


I tend to agree with the others. Tera's combat was a failed experiment. Maybe it is because I played a healer but the targeting system was just awful. The game ended up way to AE focused. The PvP was a hot mess, especially if you got a lot of effects on screen so lag started to hit.

I think GW2 probably has the right idea. Action based combat with targeting thrown in as well and with hit detection so I can't fire through one mob to hit another etc.

If the combat is like WoW where everything is just targeted it wouldn't really fit the feel of their other games so I wouldn't think they would go that path. Full tab targeting systems can work but your game has to be top notch to make it work, otherwise you end up with a really boring combat system like a WAR or Rift.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5785

11/05/13 1:01:22 PM#60
Originally posted by holdenhamlet

You and other people in this thread are insane, or just like being able to eat potato chips and play an MMORPG at the same time.

The combat in TERA is amazing.  It is so good that I can't play other MMORPGS anymore because they are so incredibly boring.

TERA has some problems, but the combat is not one of them.

As for this "aiming reasonably close" thing, it seems little different than the fact that you have to face targets in tab-targeting combat systems.  So really it's tab-target.  And it's another MMORPG I'll have to pass because of it using this archaic targeting system.

More time for SMITE I guess...

I agree. The combat in Tera is the standard by which I measure other action combat systems now.

Soft targeting with a reticule can be down well and I think Neverwinter does a good job at this, but it has a few problems especially as a healer. It also makes some targeting decisions for you which I don't always like.

My favorite combat systems go in pretty much this order:

Tera - I love this system because it's not just skill spam, block, move like the other action or hybrids lower on the list

Firefall - A lot like Tera only more mobile and if you're a squishy definitely relies a lot on kiting. Still a great combat system.

Neverwinter, Defiance (this one might rate higher if the UI wasn't so hideous on the PC)

GW2, TSW - Hybrid systems that are much better than the old school, but have less individual tactical thought. Although the group tactics for these games is pretty cool. Still fun systems imo.

EQ2, LotRO, and all the other full on tab-target + rng style games.

Curse you AquaScum!

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