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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » PvP/Mordred server...Please

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51 posts found
  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

8/22/13 5:46:53 PM#41
Originally posted by Sleepyfish  I doubt they will introduce that, however I and sick of these lore breaking forced faction systems for game worlds that have no history of it before. Trying to turn Star wars into CATACLYSM was a disaster.  It scares me that what we will end up with is a scarcity of any new ideas and just rehash of DAOC with some MOP elements thrown in, Dark age of Pandas. I have seen the pve videos, which are fine but meaningless since that kind of AI has been possible for 6 years now. 

But there will have to be some world pvp in ESO for it to survive. There are two kinds of Elder Scroll players good guys who want to murder bad guys and Bad guys who want to murder good guys and steal things. This does not translate into an mmo where people will be content to go to designated pvp only areas and shoot catapults. Or zip around looking for raid parties 24/7. You ignore those people and just make a MOP clone with DAOC carrots thrown in, you will just get DAOC refugees and some bored WOW players, for 3 months or so. 

 

Totally disagree. Their design is a nice balance between PvE and PvP, just like the original DAoC was. If open world pvp was so wildly popular, there would have been a dozen mordred servers in DAoC and only 1-2 PvE/PvP server instead of the other way around. Many people want to do some PvP but don't want to do it 24/7 within seconds when they log in. No system is going to please everyone, but theirs goes a long way to striking a nice balance that makes good business sense and will please a lot of players.

 

And by the way, its not fair to compare DAoC's player base from the early 2000s to today's, because so many fewer players played MMORPGs 10 years ago. Its gone up by a factor of 10 since then. Instead of looking at player numbers, think market share. If ESO only gets the same market share that DAoC got, that would be a 1-2 million subs, which would be enough all by itself to make the game profitable. And ESO has the big advantage of having the Elder Scrolls name attached to it, which will certainly attract some RPG players too.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Sleepyfish

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 322

8/22/13 7:20:37 PM#42
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Sleepyfish  I doubt they will introduce that, however I and sick of these lore breaking forced faction systems for game worlds that have no history of it before. Trying to turn Star wars into CATACLYSM was a disaster.  It scares me that what we will end up with is a scarcity of any new ideas and just rehash of DAOC with some MOP elements thrown in, Dark age of Pandas. I have seen the pve videos, which are fine but meaningless since that kind of AI has been possible for 6 years now. 

But there will have to be some world pvp in ESO for it to survive. There are two kinds of Elder Scroll players good guys who want to murder bad guys and Bad guys who want to murder good guys and steal things. This does not translate into an mmo where people will be content to go to designated pvp only areas and shoot catapults. Or zip around looking for raid parties 24/7. You ignore those people and just make a MOP clone with DAOC carrots thrown in, you will just get DAOC refugees and some bored WOW players, for 3 months or so. 

 

Totally disagree. Their design is a nice balance between PvE and PvP, just like the original DAoC was. If open world pvp was so wildly popular, there would have been a dozen mordred servers in DAoC and only 1-2 PvE/PvP server instead of the other way around. Many people want to do some PvP but don't want to do it 24/7 within seconds when they log in. No system is going to please everyone, but theirs goes a long way to striking a nice balance that makes good business sense and will please a lot of players.

 

And by the way, its not fair to compare DAoC's player base from the early 2000s to today's, because so many fewer players played MMORPGs 10 years ago. Its gone up by a factor of 10 since then. Instead of looking at player numbers, think market share. If ESO only gets the same market share that DAoC got, that would be a 1-2 million subs, which would be enough all by itself to make the game profitable. And ESO has the big advantage of having the Elder Scrolls name attached to it, which will certainly attract some RPG players too.

 

 

You are right it is not fair to compare sub numbers from a game in 2002 to 2004 just like its not fair to somehow think a game trying to attract at least 3 to 4 million people can survive on the percentage of DAOC vets who still actively play mmorpgs. You need new customers and you need to play up to your fan base for a game with this well known of an IP. If just copying a model  and ignoring the fan base did the trick, TOR wold be worth playing right now and GW2 would be interesting. 

 

Open world pvp is popular that is why WIOW had so many areas dedicated to it. Besides the Instance portal it was the entire reason STV existed. If  people had not wanted that so many would have not left EQ2 in the first place. 

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

8/22/13 8:44:49 PM#43
Originally posted by Sleepyfish

 

You are right it is not fair to compare sub numbers from a game in 2002 to 2004 just like its not fair to somehow think a game trying to attract at least 3 to 4 million people can survive on the percentage of DAOC vets who still actively play mmorpgs. You need new customers and you need to play up to your fan base for a game with this well known of an IP. If just copying a model  and ignoring the fan base did the trick, TOR wold be worth playing right now and GW2 would be interesting. 

 Open world pvp is popular that is why WIOW had so many areas dedicated to it. Besides the Instance portal it was the entire reason STV existed. If  people had not wanted that so many would have not left EQ2 in the first place. 

 

who the hell is saying that ESO can survive on DAoC vets? The MMORPG audience is 10 times larger today, which means its reasonable to think that the audience for any MMORPG is potentially far larger than it was a decade ago. Its not just daoc vets, its anyone to whom a daoc-type game might appeal. I mean, that's so stupid, its like saying WoW's audience was limited to EQ vets. What a silly strawman.

I don't know what TOR has to do with this at all, another strawman. Or GW2. ESO is very different from those games in its emphasis on 3 realms with their own pve plus a huge pvp region.

As far as open world pvp being popular in wow, I guess that relative, because isn't that still a relatively small portion of WoW, just like Mordred was a small portion of DAoC's player base.

Listen, I am not saying that open world pvp isn't popular with some folks. Of course it is. But its not nearly as popular as pve or regional pvp. I think ESO has struck a pretty good balance, with traditional pve within the realms but endgame pvp outside of them. It has a pretty good chance to break the mold the endgame boss raid model that EQ made popular and WoW expanded on. I for one do not want to do endless repeats of endgame dungeons to win loot rolls and get my gear. I think there are a lot of others like that. I think open world pvp types would be better off in another game, just like I am better off not in WoW. I also think that ESO will more be more mainstream, casual game than DAoC and might turn off some of the hardcore DAoC pvp crowd. Which again I think is a smart business decision, one daoc itself probably wishes it could do over.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Sleepyfish

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 322

8/22/13 9:27:07 PM#44
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by Sleepyfish

 

You are right it is not fair to compare sub numbers from a game in 2002 to 2004 just like its not fair to somehow think a game trying to attract at least 3 to 4 million people can survive on the percentage of DAOC vets who still actively play mmorpgs. You need new customers and you need to play up to your fan base for a game with this well known of an IP. If just copying a model  and ignoring the fan base did the trick, TOR wold be worth playing right now and GW2 would be interesting. 

 Open world pvp is popular that is why WIOW had so many areas dedicated to it. Besides the Instance portal it was the entire reason STV existed. If  people had not wanted that so many would have not left EQ2 in the first place. 

 

who the hell is saying that ESO can survive on DAoC vets? The MMORPG audience is 10 times larger today, which means its reasonable to think that the audience for any MMORPG is potentially far larger than it was a decade ago. Its not just daoc vets, its anyone to whom a daoc-type game might appeal. I mean, that's so stupid, its like saying WoW's audience was limited to EQ vets. What a silly strawman.

I don't know what TOR has to do with this at all, another strawman. Or GW2. ESO is very different from those games in its emphasis on 3 realms with their own pve plus a huge pvp region.

As far as open world pvp being popular in wow, I guess that relative, because isn't that still a relatively small portion of WoW, just like Mordred was a small portion of DAoC's player base.

Listen, I am not saying that open world pvp isn't popular with some folks. Of course it is. But its not nearly as popular as pve or regional pvp. I think ESO has struck a pretty good balance, with traditional pve within the realms but endgame pvp outside of them. It has a pretty good chance to break the mold the endgame boss raid model that EQ made popular and WoW expanded on. I for one do not want to do endless repeats of endgame dungeons to win loot rolls and get my gear. I think there are a lot of others like that. I think open world pvp types would be better off in another game, just like I am better off not in WoW. I also think that ESO will more be more mainstream, casual game than DAoC and might turn off some of the hardcore DAoC pvp crowd. Which again I think is a smart business decision, one daoc itself probably wishes it could do over.

 

 

 

Agree to disagree on a few points however I don't agree PVE is more popular than open world pvp. I think that its easy to muddy the water between normal monster killing quest pve and raid pvp which are not the same thing. Just like for PVP there is a difference for those of us who are active in it, in battlegrounds, arenas and world pvp. I think most players like to kill creatures for mats, quests, loot and such, but I think the number of people who enjoy hard core raiding are about the same that enjoy hard core PVP, which is why if I take a game like EVE and compare it to a well done pure pve game with little to no pvp the numbers will be pretty similar 200 to 400k ish. 

That being my opinion I think they at least have to let the option be open and I worry they will make pvp too constrictive and when they marginalize that player group their just going to leave. Now I have to make the point that offering a product to a player leads to them buying into other things. Just offering hard core pve and pvp will lead to those players doing other casual things, putting money into the system and making the casuals feel like they are playing a game with some, whats the word legitimacy.

But honestly world pvp in most cases is not a hard core activity. Its a casual and fun activity thats probably a bit more stimulating than hunting quest rabbits. Look the whole world does not have to be hard core but there does need to be some scary world pvp areas that are not centralized designated areas at least I feel like thats the right decision for this game. At least some PvPvE content. 

Also on the first point I dont think its a strawman but I do think your point of view is just different than mine on that. The only reason I bring up those games is because they are either in decline for copying a model or adding that model in later. All I am saying is they should take care to model the game carefully to the lore and fan base and not something that is alien to them. TOR was just an example of a model that probably would not have been so bad if not for the well known IP. Instead they took something well known and made something familiar to WoW players and very very unlike a Star Wars movie, bounty hunters and smugglers faction locked a travesty. 

  User Deleted
8/26/13 9:49:12 PM#45
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Mordred as the worst thing Mythic ever did... many tried it but only a very few stayed, the majorrity of people concluded that RvR PvP was far supperior to FFA.

 

Absolutely.....not.

 

Have you even played DAOC in its prime? Mordred was always a popular server and had ~1000 players on peaktime, which was very good for a DAOC server. 

Granted, Mordred was not a server for mains, it was a server for when you wanted to goof around. But it was popular and exciting in its chaos. Many people played Mordred when they got tired of RvR. Why? Because there was real excitement, and a purpose; competition.

FFA PvP is always a fantastic experience, as it brings out the true nature of players and allows real consequences. It centers around the player, not the world. 

 

TES, from the looks of it will be another run of the mill overhyped MMO just like GW2, LOTRO, DDO etc. All hand holding, instanced BS, questing, "At level 50 the game really opens up" what a load of crap. 

 

  killahh

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 454

As famous as the unknown soldier

8/26/13 9:55:12 PM#46
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Mordred as the worst thing Mythic ever did... many tried it but only a very few stayed, the majorrity of people concluded that RvR PvP was far supperior to FFA.

sorry, that is simply not true.

 mordred was  the definition of pvp. 

 

nowhere was safe, you needed to form alliances good solid guilds to be able to achieve greatness.

 i started characters on mordred and  a regular server, and stayed mordred, if you want to pvp, you pvp. 

imho there is no such thing as a convenience pvp player, or a part time pvp player, you either pvp or you dont.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  PsychoticHamster

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/01/12
Posts: 97

8/26/13 10:08:13 PM#47
You'd think people would take the time to actually learn about a game before just spouting stuff off. PvP is handled entirely inside Cyrodiil, which is supposed to be larger than any other province within the game. Outside of that there is no PvP/interaction with other factions. ZOS has been pretty adamant  about keeping it that way, and if you want to blame somebody; its Matt Firor. Think of ESO as the 2nd incarnation of DAoC, its PvP is nearly identical to it.

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

8/28/13 11:22:05 AM#48
Originally posted by killahh
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Mordred as the worst thing Mythic ever did... many tried it but only a very few stayed, the majorrity of people concluded that RvR PvP was far supperior to FFA.

sorry, that is simply not true.

 mordred was  the definition of pvp. 

 

nowhere was safe, you needed to form alliances good solid guilds to be able to achieve greatness.

 i started characters on mordred and  a regular server, and stayed mordred, if you want to pvp, you pvp. 

imho there is no such thing as a convenience pvp player, or a part time pvp player, you either pvp or you dont.

the problem is that on world pvp servers, over time, a few guilds become dominant, and often one guild becomes dominant, and other folks stop logging on. That is a big reasons why those servers have such big population drops. Also its very hard to bring in new players unless they are aligned with the dominant guild(s) because the high level players are entrenched on top and its very hard for new players to progress and almost impossible to catch up when there is continual advancement (realm rank, gear, whatever).

I don't think Mordred was the worst thing Mythic ever did, far from it, it was successful (at first) and gave open world pvp types a place to play. But I totally disagree that Mordred-type servers would make a good base game, at least not a financially successful one. They are much more of a fringe element around a base game with closed realms and pvp in a separate region. It would be a horrible business decision for a game with mainstream appeal like ESO. If they want to have a Mordred server, fine, but watch the fast population dropoff when the top guilds get entrenched and new blood dries up.

And by the way, saying either you pvp or you don't, isn't that ridiculous? The majority of players did both PvE and PvP in DAoC. Its ridiculous to say someone cant do both and still enjoy PvP. Come on.

In any event, this decision has been made, ESO is what it is. Not every game is for every person. Find one you like better if you want pure hardcore open world PvP. ESO is clearly taking a more mainstream approach, which is a wise business decision even if some folks wont like it. It would be pretty stupid for a game linked to Elder Scrolls, with such a wide fan base, to do a 180 when it became a MMORPG and be hardcore open world. Jeesh. 

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 554

 
OP  8/28/13 12:10:32 PM#49
Originally posted by Eol-

the problem is that on world pvp servers, over time, a few guilds become dominant, and often one guild becomes dominant, and other folks stop logging on. That is a big reasons why those servers have such big population drops. Also its very hard to bring in new players unless they are aligned with the dominant guild(s) because the high level players are entrenched on top and its very hard for new players to progress and almost impossible to catch up when there is continual advancement (realm rank, gear, whatever).

I don't think Mordred was the worst thing Mythic ever did, far from it, it was successful (at first) and gave open world pvp types a place to play. But I totally disagree that Mordred-type servers would make a good base game, at least not a financially successful one. They are much more of a fringe element around a base game with closed realms and pvp in a separate region. It would be a horrible business decision for a game with mainstream appeal like ESO. If they want to have a Mordred server, fine, but watch the fast population dropoff when the top guilds get entrenched and new blood dries up.

And by the way, saying either you pvp or you don't, isn't that ridiculous? The majority of players did both PvE and PvP in DAoC. Its ridiculous to say someone cant do both and still enjoy PvP. Come on.

In any event, this decision has been made, ESO is what it is. Not every game is for every person. Find one you like better if you want pure hardcore open world PvP. ESO is clearly taking a more mainstream approach, which is a wise business decision even if some folks wont like it. It would be pretty stupid for a game linked to Elder Scrolls, with such a wide fan base, to do a 180 when it became a MMORPG and be hardcore open world. Jeesh. 

Once again, I don't think anyone is suggesting making open world PvP the common ruleset, but it would be great to have that option on a separate non-instanced server.

 

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 554

 
OP  8/28/13 12:12:15 PM#50
Originally posted by PsychoticHamster
You'd think people would take the time to actually learn about a game before just spouting stuff off. PvP is handled entirely inside Cyrodiil, which is supposed to be larger than any other province within the game. Outside of that there is no PvP/interaction with other factions. ZOS has been pretty adamant  about keeping it that way, and if you want to blame somebody; its Matt Firor. Think of ESO as the 2nd incarnation of DAoC, its PvP is nearly identical to it.

We understand, we just want that to change. 

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

8/28/13 2:11:43 PM#51
Originally posted by Grixxitt

Once again, I don't think anyone is suggesting making open world PvP the common ruleset, but it would be great to have that option on a separate non-instanced server.

 

understood. Since there aren't really 'servers' but rather 'campaigns' where you are assigned based on friends and play patterns etc, not sure if it would be that simple. Even with DAoC, the Mordred servers came well long after the game was released. That's probably a more realistic goal here, a separate campaign with a separate ruleset implemented well after release. They will probably have their hands full for release; a bad release will ruin a game.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

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