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102 posts found
  jimprouner

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 152

7/06/13 10:07:13 PM#61
Originally posted by Battlerock
Originally posted by Carnicide
I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

 

Yeah without trinity at least a trinity, the whole "role playing" goes out the window and all your left with is gw2 pve. Gw2 pve is, well I dont know what it is, but it makes me want to shoot myself.

Problem is the trinity as they described it was inconsistent.  One minute they are saying, yah you need tank, and the next they are saying everyone can take hits.  Then they say you need someone to heal, UNLESS everyone can manage their own health. 

Everything from these people is so inconsistent and shaky.  ZOS is acting like a virgin about to have sex, afraid to make any move.

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1258

7/07/13 3:16:27 AM#62
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by immodium

MMO's don't have to be worlds or even persistent though. MMORPG's possibly, but MMO's no.

I can still interact with people in different instances by changing to that instance or vice versa. Instances DO NOT stop me from interacting with everyone on the server.

I think this boils down to "I do/don't like it so they must/mustn't work".

You have that backwards. You need that in MMOs, not necessarily MMO-RPGs though.

Regardless, this IS an RPG. Instances have no place in a true MMO.

I think your confused. An MMO can be heavily instanced. If there's a 'Massive' amount of people 'Online' I can play/interact with it's an MMO.

If you had a chat room capable of having 2000+ people who could enter lobby based games with multiple players, it's an MMO.

Sorry for de-railing :)


Sorry bud, MMO doesn't stand for massive multiplayer.

 

It stands for massiveLY multiplayer. Meaning, you have to have upwards of hundreds of people you can actually play with at the same time. That's been the staple of the genre since the term was coined. Instanced small scale diablo like games have existed for a long time and no one calls them MMOs. Because they aren't. What makes an MMO is the persistent uninstanced world and the thousands of people in it.

I see your point, regarding the massively. However, nothing states an MMO has to be persistent and/or a world.

Instanced arena based comabt that lasts 2 hours with upwards of hundreds of players competing with or against is an MMO.

You said it yourself in red.

Except that there aren't any instanced arena combat games that have 100vs100 matches.

The key features that differentiated MMOs from other online games were the persistent virtual world, and the thousands of people that existed inside it. When the term MMO was coined, THOSE are the features that created the genre.

No, the key feature is the massive amount of people playing together online. Being a world or persistant is irrelevant to whether a game is an MMO or not.

Whether a game like that has been released or not is also irrelevant as if one was, it would be an MMO.

An MMOFPS for example.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

7/07/13 11:12:49 AM#63
Originally posted by Kuanshu

GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

  Kuanshu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/07/13 12:03:33 PM#64
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu

GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

Oh ya maybe you didn't play on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call as they introduced instances to the game sometime after the game was released...go figure (of course they didn't add it in beta as I was there and stated I beta tested it and played it for sometime there after....discredit this...)

Oh and ya ask some of the old school pvpers in Darkfall if they know my forum name...I have killed many of them many times, many, many times in previous MMORPGs...maybe Darkfall 3 will be worthy of my time/energy

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

7/07/13 4:02:15 PM#65
Originally posted by Kuanshu
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Kuanshu

GG stop bringin up Darkfall already....if anyone wants a real laugh on a bad day just load up some you tube videos of gameplay for Darkfall, LOL.

AC didn't add instancing in beta. So, you couldn't counter my argument, because it destroys yours, so you just discredit the game instead... good job buddy.

Oh ya maybe you didn't play on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call as they introduced instances to the game sometime after the game was released...

Okay so first you say they put in instancing in beta, then you said "sometime after release", you're quite confused about a great many things.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3702

7/07/13 4:50:27 PM#66

Just a couple of quick questions...

Is a server not an instance? One that you're trapped in forever or until the population dries up and it merges with another instance? So if you don't like instances I guess you don't like servers...

In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server/instance, or are most of them just part of the scenery for you and the couple of hundred other players you actually interact with on a daily basis?

And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in?

 

People here, especially the ones who start every post with "everyone knows that..." have all kinds of theoretical dogma and buzzwords they like to throw around as if they were unquestionable, when in fact it's just shallow and often meaningless opinionated shit. Reminds me of the worst religious zealotry.

  Kuanshu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 277

7/07/13 5:12:01 PM#67

Sigh, some people just gotta badger others on forums...good thing we have options (Block)... MMORPGs have options for this as well...

The exception bring PvP centric MMORPGs which cater to communities of degenerates...

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

7/08/13 12:24:34 AM#68
Originally posted by Iselin

Just a couple of quick questions...

Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

 

Done

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1158

7/08/13 5:56:34 AM#69

DavisFlight posted (in response to 5) Waiting for MOB resets and timers

"A properly designed MMO does not have resets and timers in their dungeons. "

 

What should it have?

(This is a key issues when it comes to instancing - forget things like bandwidth, loading screens, how you communicate with 5 or 5,000 other people etc. )

You have talked about just moving to another room in DAoC whilst the boss respawned - which is a reset of the boss btw - is this what you are suggesting? If so how frequently should the boss respawn? (Is this immersive - should boss even respawn?)

If the boss should respawn should the mobs that you have killed to get to the boss respawn or not?

- If yes you get to fight them again on the way out  - no immersion there.

- If no anyone else entering the dungeon get a free walk to the boss, no immersion there.

And from there you can go on to discuss stealing spawns etc. but the key question is boss respawns. You can randomise the locations and times of trash mobs but "bosses" or the big set piece encounters is another matter.

 

I totally agree that badly, needlessly and inappropriately used instancing sucks and that issues like bandwidth are irrelevant. Like Iselin however I believe that instancing has a place but I am interested in how you would handle what I see as being their key advantage. Not for nothing did EverQuest get the nickname Evercamp and taking 20 minutes to get to Lynn Barfog in DAoC and finding the bosses were not up sucked.

So what is your non-instanced solution?

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

7/09/13 2:17:44 PM#70

DAoC had in game lore that explained why most monsters respawned. I find it far more immersive to have zombies come back from the dead, then for a random bit of underground dungeon to be totally empty of other players. If in your instance, a boss only dies once and drops his sword...then you leave the instance and you see 100 other players with the same sword. There's no immersion either way, but at least without instancing their are in game explanations and socialization.

The solution is simply to have the mobs spread out and balanced well enough so that you don't run for 20 minutes and get nothing for it. If you have certain mobs that are SO MUCH BETTER than anything else, they're going to get camped. DAoC fixed those problems pretty quickly by making mobs in Stonehenge just as good as the trees and goblins. Its a matter of content vs server population, vs respawn times. It's a number that you tweak in beta testing.

Having to fight x boss instead of y boss is not enough justification for removing the most social part of PvE in MMOs.

  jimprouner

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 152

7/09/13 4:11:08 PM#71
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Iselin

Just a couple of quick questions...

Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

 

Done

Servers are temporary. as they go offline.  Often times updated, without any player interaction.  Why are trying to expand the definition of instance anyways? 

No, he does not.  You will only interact in a meaningful way to a few dozen people in game.    Most interactions are slam, bam, thank you ma'am.

No, it is not.

  Uccisore

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 89

7/10/13 9:41:03 AM#72

Instancing and Non-instancing can both be immersive. 

 

Instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're doing a quest that must be done, and you're the only one to do it- which is how so many quests are set up, lore-wise. It create a feeling heroism and being unique and central to the game's world. 

Non-instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're just one cog in a much bigger machine- there's thousands of adventurers just like you, most of them better than you.  There's room for that, but very few, if any of the MMOs I play treat your character that way in the cutscenes/lore/quest info. 

It really just depends on what you want to be immersed IN.     Personally,  if I'm on a quest to save a villiage from an ancient evil, and when I get there there's already some other guy in hot pink armor teabagging the monster's corpse, well, I don't find that to be very immersive, nor do I find standing around 5 minutes waiting for the monster to magically re-appear so me and Pink Armor Man can kill it again  to be very immersive. 

  Uccisore

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/16/07
Posts: 89

7/10/13 9:54:17 AM#73
Originally posted by DavisFlight

DAoC had in game lore that explained why most monsters respawned. I find it far more immersive to have zombies come back from the dead, What about Khajit? Is it immersive to have Khaijit come back from the dead? You pick the one example where it actually makes sense, ignoring the fact that in Elder Scrolls Online, there's going to  be (hopefully) hundreds of situations where it doesn't.  Unless Skyrim didn't make you sick of Draugr yet....

then for a random bit of underground dungeon to be totally empty of other players.

Do you want to be immersed in a video game, or a fantasy world? In a video game, there should be other players up your ass every moment of the day trying to kill monsters before you can, spamming retarded emoticons, and etc.  You seem to  be using 'immersion' to mean 'constantly remind me that I'm playing an MMORPG'. That's not how it's usually used. It's usually used to mean "Make me feel as though I'm really in the world the game describes."   In fantasy setting that's supposed to feel heroic, instancing is thus often more immersive than non-instancing. 

If in your instance, a boss only dies once and drops his sword...then you leave the instance and you see 100 other players with the same sword. There's no immersion either way, but at least without instancing their are in game explanations and socialization.

You talk about 'in game explanations' as if instanced games are incapable of having them.  What's easier- explaining why every monster in the game world, no matter how weak or how strong, simply gets back up 3 minutes after being killed, and ALWAYS WILL NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO,  or simply having a game where none of the items are described as one of a kind?  It's a simple thing to just avoid saying "This sword is the only one of it's kind in the whole world I swear" in your quests; after all, it's how reality works, it requires no special explanation, unlike immortal-everything. 

 

The solution is simply to have the mobs spread out and balanced well enough so that you don't run for 20 minutes and get nothing for it. If you have certain mobs that are SO MUCH BETTER than anything else, they're going to get camped.

Unless they are in an instance. 

 

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

7/10/13 2:28:10 PM#74
Originally posted by s4mus
Originally posted by Carnicide
I have no idea why people would complain about the trinity class system......... ZERG-fest gw2 style is soooooo boring in pve. Works well in pvp, but I and plenty others would prefer a role.

i agree, the trinity is the only system that works atm.

GW2 dungeons are a boring mess.

Also i like to play healer/tank those roles often have the most influence in battles.

 

its like a company Tank(Boss) Healer(Assistant) DD's(brainless worker bees ;p)

 

even in the sandboxiest sandbox game where you can do anything there will always be ppl that tank and ppl that heal its just the most efficient way.

but yeah i know anyone wants to do anything... that'll work for sure....

Yeah, unfortunately I will agree with you. Currently The trinity is still the prefered method in MMO. I think companies should turn their focus around, and start making the behaviors of the AI differently but keep the Trinity, so that its that much more interesting when you are the healer and the tank.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

7/10/13 2:33:05 PM#75
Originally posted by Uccisore

Instancing and Non-instancing can both be immersive. 

 

Instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're doing a quest that must be done, and you're the only one to do it- which is how so many quests are set up, lore-wise. It create a feeling heroism and being unique and central to the game's world. 

Non-instancing is good for giving the feeling that you're just one cog in a much bigger machine- there's thousands of adventurers just like you, most of them better than you.  There's room for that, but very few, if any of the MMOs I play treat your character that way in the cutscenes/lore/quest info. 

It really just depends on what you want to be immersed IN.     Personally,  if I'm on a quest to save a villiage from an ancient evil, and when I get there there's already some other guy in hot pink armor teabagging the monster's corpse, well, I don't find that to be very immersive, nor do I find standing around 5 minutes waiting for the monster to magically re-appear so me and Pink Armor Man can kill it again  to be very immersive. 

To those that argues against instance, you must have forgotten the feeling of over 10 players each with Macros afk and camping the spawns. Thats what Instances fix, it stops players from camping, and the mobs are all unique to each player.

Sure Non-instance is great and all, but then they will have to create random wondering Mobs that might never be found ever in game.

Atleast that could be a good job for hunters in game. But still, I doubt anyone would do that.

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3702

7/10/13 3:26:45 PM#76
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Iselin

Just a couple of quick questions...

Is a server not an instance? By computer science terms, every single game, multiplayer or not, is an instance. By MMO terms, no a server is not an instance, as it is not temporary.

In a "real MMO" open world, do you know and actively play with all 5,000 people in your server. Yes, because in a real MMO, all those other players impact the game world in some way.

And while we're at it... is every square foot of a "virtual world" equally interesting to be in? Not even slightly relavent.

 

Done

Servers are also temporary but of longer duration--megaservers have made this pretty obvious: they create mini server-like instances that are just duplicate versions of a crowded area on the fly. Instances come in different sizes and duration. Cyrodiil in this game will be multiple instances and have long durations. Those instances, called "campaigns" will last for a long time. They will also be huge instances.

In any MMO the population impacts the game in whichever way the game is designed to be impacted (economically, structurally, whatever) neither Instances nor their absence have anything to do with it one way or the other. The vast majority of people are strangers that you never directly interact with...background scenery.

And just because you miss the point it doesn't make irrelevant. The point is simple: in MMO people congregate in places that have some appeal. Be it towns, dungeons or somewhere where the currently unbalance uber item du jour comes from. And the fact that good developers try to spread the load around by creating alternate equally desirable areas is not just about trying to keep the world open through good design--it's mostly about trying to limit the number of players with all their polygons and special effects to a number that can be managed by the minimum spec rigs. One way they deal with that if people continue to congregate in the one place anyway is instancing.

Asheron's Call didn't have instancing. The way they dealt with that same crowd problem that has always existed in all MMOs--more so the ones with large scale PvP-- was to create "portal storms" that semi-randomly chose a bunch of players and kicked them away into the surrounding countryside. Instancing would have been much less annoying.

At any rate, from now on I'll just say "no" anytime you say "yes" and the reason will be "because I say so." That seems to work for you. I'll give it a shot.

  mazut

Novice Member

Joined: 4/23/08
Posts: 824

7/11/13 1:30:24 AM#77
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Well that's it. The last interesting feature of this game is gone.

 

This has gone through so much back peddling and revision it's scary. Matt Frior had a vision for a good game. Whoever is publishing this, has stripped it of that vision.

 

One of the very first things Matt said about the game was that the dungeons would be PUBLIC and huge, focused on people sharing the space, like DAoC dungeons. 

 

Now that's gone.

And so now, my interest is gone.

 

I suspected it was axed ages ago when they stopped mentioning it and started lauding instances and phased gameplay. You can't have proper public dungeons AS WELL as instanced dungeons. One gets undermined by the other. So, they scrapped the good dungeons and went with WoW dungeons.

I think you are the closest to the reality, still may turn playable, but average at best. :/

  jimprouner

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 152

7/11/13 2:41:42 AM#78
Originally posted by mazut
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Well that's it. The last interesting feature of this game is gone.

 

This has gone through so much back peddling and revision it's scary. Matt Frior had a vision for a good game. Whoever is publishing this, has stripped it of that vision.

 

One of the very first things Matt said about the game was that the dungeons would be PUBLIC and huge, focused on people sharing the space, like DAoC dungeons. 

 

Now that's gone.

And so now, my interest is gone.

 

I suspected it was axed ages ago when they stopped mentioning it and started lauding instances and phased gameplay. You can't have proper public dungeons AS WELL as instanced dungeons. One gets undermined by the other. So, they scrapped the good dungeons and went with WoW dungeons.

I think you are the closest to the reality, still may turn playable, but average at best. :/

Wait, how are zerg dungeons good?

  stayBlind

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 509

7/11/13 2:53:38 AM#79
Originally posted by Kenaoshi
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Did you guys even read it? It talks about mixing roles and being able to switch on the fly if need be. What more could you want? I will take this over some DPS spam fest any day. 

For what i read it is exactly what your describing.

"Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group."

That's what triggered the  "oh wait' moment.

lol at least this game will have some AI unlike GW2

Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

  jimprouner

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 152

7/11/13 3:17:24 AM#80
Originally posted by stayBlind
Originally posted by Kenaoshi
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Did you guys even read it? It talks about mixing roles and being able to switch on the fly if need be. What more could you want? I will take this over some DPS spam fest any day. 

For what i read it is exactly what your describing.

"Make sure your party has at least one player that can heal the group."

That's what triggered the  "oh wait' moment.

lol at least this game will have some AI unlike GW2

Dude, can't you tell when someone is feeding you BULLSHIT.  Because all their hype for their AI is exactly that, a hot steaming pile of BULLSHIT!

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