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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » Official post - when questing in other faction's zones won't even be able to see other faction's players.

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277 posts found
  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6501

"I fight so you don't have to."

5/01/13 5:03:38 PM#241
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Eol-
If we sat down 10 TES players in a room, we would probably get 10 different opinions about what they want from ESO. Dont act like there is this unanimous mindset, because its not remotely true. In fact, the only thing we know for sure about the TES fanbase is that they like playing the TES RPGs... and the problem is that a MMORPG is going to be different than an RPG designed for a hundred or two hours of single player gaming. No matter what the developers of ESO do, they are going to have to alienate some of the TES fans simply because its impossible to design Skyrim online and still have lots of players in 6 months.


I would wager that 9 out 10 would say, "Open world exploration."

 

and I want a new Ferrari for $40,000. A lot of good that does me.

As I pointed out, TES players like open world exploration but its the one thing that ESO the MMORPG cant possibly give them, because its impossible to create enough material in a MMORPG as fast as people go through it. TES needs to be translated into a MMORPG and that means making major changes; they cant just create a Skyrim where the content never ends (and hell even in Skyrim it seems there is much more content than there is because to a large extent the mobs level up as you do, unlike a MMORPG where the mobs are different levels and there needs to be content for every level). My point was that there isnt one thing or set of things that TES players want from a MMORPG. If people on this forum cant agree how to translate TES into ESO the MMORPG, why in the world would you think there is some agreement among the much larger group of TES players?

Complete and utter nonsense. There have been plenty of MMORPGs with enough content for open world explorers and those games were made a decade ago. Ever heard of SWG? EQ 1? Asheron's Call?

You are making the misstake to think that a ThemePark is the only way to create an MMO and since in a ThemePark you cannot keep up with how fast players consume content then no MMO can do it. But that is a ThemePark problem, NOT an MMO problem.

ThemeParks are much easier for devs to create then a full fledged open world MMO like the one's mentioned above. It is easy to box the world into neat little zones with level bracketed content and static quests. It is much harder to create a huge world, which you can explore and create your own content by interacting with people.

Harder means more time, which means more development cost and that is what the issue is, NOT that MMOs cannot be possibly be done which centers around open world exploration. That has been done and can be done.

  Acidon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/05
Posts: 681

Permafried

5/01/13 5:13:16 PM#242
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by Shadowguy64

Much crying about nothing. What would you do if you could see the other faction and unable to PvP.  /wave? 

the point

your head

This stupid, messed up system is the result of crying about something ELSE.

Dang Eir_S.   Not sure what this game did to you, but it must have been extreme.

 

Personally I like the fact that they are going in this direction.  Without OWPVP, it makes no sense to see the enemy.  This eliminates all of the people that would just emote and jump around the enemy.

Seems like the best compromise in order to allow us to explore the entire world.

I understand that we're all different, but I don't see a problem.  I'm not a fan of phasing in general, but I think this is a prime example of why it should exist sometimes.

Here's hoping, anyway!

Playing: The Crew, Defiance, RiFT
Mourning: World of Darkness


Free, Clean & Safe Quality of Life Software:
http://www.acidonsolutions.com

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

5/01/13 7:35:04 PM#243
The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.
  jacktors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/16/11
Posts: 130

5/01/13 7:54:53 PM#244
Originally posted by hMJem
The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.

If that was true, then SWTOR would not have failed. I think you are wrong about your assessment. I think the people who post on this forum are a good representation of gamers out there. You are just assuming that we are the exact opposite of the representation of the gamers out there. I dont understand why you feel this way. 

  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 329

5/01/13 8:13:12 PM#245
Originally posted by jacktors
Originally posted by hMJem
The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.

If that was true, then SWTOR would not have failed. I think you are wrong about your assessment. I think the people who post on this forum are a good representation of gamers out there. You are just assuming that we are the exact opposite of the representation of the gamers out there. I dont understand why you feel this way. 

The biggest problem SWToR had was lack of end game content.  When hardcore players race ahead and run out of content thats one thing, when even the casual players are doing it the game has issues.  The whole concept of keeping players in an MMO revolves around keeping them entertained, and SWToR did that for a month or two.  It had expected 4-6 months of time before players reached that stage and so players had nothing to do so a lot unsubbed and went elsewhere for their entertainment.  SWToR had a lesson to teach, have content ready before your current content is exhausted or have something to keep players entertained enough to keep subbing.  Also last I checked SWToR was chugging along, or does failed mean it failed to retain it's initial sub base?  It's switch to freemium?  I will agree it failed to reach it's projected profits but equally by that measure very few games are successes.

I also have yet to see a forum that is like the in game community.  Most forums are far more hostile, polarised and vocal than the vast majority you will meet in game.  (Note that I said majority, you will still find such people in game).

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10427

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

5/01/13 9:08:29 PM#246


Originally posted by jacktors

Originally posted by hMJem The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.
If that was true, then SWTOR would not have failed. I think you are wrong about your assessment. I think the people who post on this forum are a good representation of gamers out there. You are just assuming that we are the exact opposite of the representation of the gamers out there. I dont understand why you feel this way. 



SWToR was just as bad for casual gamers as anyone else. If a game is bad, it doesn't matter what group it targets. The game will not perform up to expectations.

You're assuming that casual gamers would like to SWToR regardless of how bad it was because it was a casual, solo centric game.

Doesn't matter which side of an issue you're on, assumptions aren't usually the best thing to run with.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

5/01/13 9:11:27 PM#247

i other news, i just permanently super glued my palm to my face. I figured id save myself the trouble ...

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2950

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

5/02/13 12:26:23 AM#248


Originally posted by azmundai
i other news, i just permanently super glued my palm to my face. I figured id save myself the trouble ...

ROFLMAO Thank you!

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

5/02/13 12:32:46 PM#249
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Eol-
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Eol-
If we sat down 10 TES players in a room, we would probably get 10 different opinions about what they want from ESO. Dont act like there is this unanimous mindset, because its not remotely true. In fact, the only thing we know for sure about the TES fanbase is that they like playing the TES RPGs... and the problem is that a MMORPG is going to be different than an RPG designed for a hundred or two hours of single player gaming. No matter what the developers of ESO do, they are going to have to alienate some of the TES fans simply because its impossible to design Skyrim online and still have lots of players in 6 months.


I would wager that 9 out 10 would say, "Open world exploration."

 

and I want a new Ferrari for $40,000. A lot of good that does me.

As I pointed out, TES players like open world exploration but its the one thing that ESO the MMORPG cant possibly give them, because its impossible to create enough material in a MMORPG as fast as people go through it. TES needs to be translated into a MMORPG and that means making major changes; they cant just create a Skyrim where the content never ends (and hell even in Skyrim it seems there is much more content than there is because to a large extent the mobs level up as you do, unlike a MMORPG where the mobs are different levels and there needs to be content for every level). My point was that there isnt one thing or set of things that TES players want from a MMORPG. If people on this forum cant agree how to translate TES into ESO the MMORPG, why in the world would you think there is some agreement among the much larger group of TES players?

Complete and utter nonsense. There have been plenty of MMORPGs with enough content for open world explorers and those games were made a decade ago. Ever heard of SWG? EQ 1? Asheron's Call?

You are making the misstake to think that a ThemePark is the only way to create an MMO and since in a ThemePark you cannot keep up with how fast players consume content then no MMO can do it. But that is a ThemePark problem, NOT an MMO problem.

ThemeParks are much easier for devs to create then a full fledged open world MMO like the one's mentioned above. It is easy to box the world into neat little zones with level bracketed content and static quests. It is much harder to create a huge world, which you can explore and create your own content by interacting with people.

Harder means more time, which means more development cost and that is what the issue is, NOT that MMOs cannot be possibly be done which centers around open world exploration. That has been done and can be done.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. You mention SWG, there is no way there was enough 'exporation' content. Sure the planets were big but it was just the same mobs spread all over the planet. I love exploring, and I remember my disappointment going into dangerous areas solo and just finding more of the same mile after mile. Few landmarks of interest, just the same mobs, forever. As far as EQ1, that  largely developed into a raid endgame which is not the same as 'open world exploration'.

Also, those games had much slower levelling than today's games, there were many time-sinks built into the game to slow down players from levelling too fast. By streamlining these things, WoW significantly increased the rate at which players level, for better or worse. In DAoC at release it took even the hardest core player several months to reach level 50, and when WoW came out players were doing that in weeks; casual players could take 6-12 months to hit level 50 in DAoC. DAoC slowed down crafting simply by having a timebar so it took minutes to do a single crafting action. Thats just a time sink, forcing players to slow down. Likewise with long slow horse routes and such, versus teleporting right to a spot like many games do it today. Or what about being forced to go back to your corpse, just another way to slow down players.

The point is, if you just want to go out and explore new areas, and if you play say a couple hours a day, there is no way there can be enough exploration material for you to play for years. No way. If you are a hardcore player and play 4+ hours a day, you will go through the material in weeks. Like I pointed out, they were able to create a hundred hours of content in Skyrim because the mobs levelled to some extent as you did, so most places you went to were level appropriate. A MMORPG cant even do that because they have to have level-specific content for all players, which means they need to create MUCH more material overall.

Its been shown over and over that hardcore players will rip through content at a rapid place to get to the 'endgame'. More casual players will take longer, but they will run out of exploration content too. Thats why MMORPGs need endgames, because sooner or later most players will hit max level. The question for ESO isnt 'do we have an endgame?', rather, its 'what type of an endgame will do provide?'. Open world exploration with many months of new material just isnt feasible. And this has nothing to do with 'sandbox' or 'themepark', which is an entirely different argument, it just has to do with the inherent economic limit on material they can include.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

5/02/13 12:43:31 PM#250
Originally posted by jacktors
Originally posted by hMJem
The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.

If that was true, then SWTOR would not have failed. I think you are wrong about your assessment. I think the people who post on this forum are a good representation of gamers out there. You are just assuming that we are the exact opposite of the representation of the gamers out there. I dont understand why you feel this way. 

You have to be kidding me. In no way shape or form are the MMORPG.com forums 'representative' of gamers. Most gamers dont bother to come to a forum and argue about games that havent even come out yet. Most players dont post in forums of games they DO play. If they do go to forums, its to look something up, not argue. Its just not worth their (limited) time, so they dont do it. By their very nature the forums tend to gather the harder core players, and MMORPG is the epitomy of that. There are literally millions of people who play MMORPGs, but most of them have not played nearly as much in terms of hours and number of games as the people who tend to post here. I remember in DAoC when people would argue on the forums, and try to act like a few hundred people commenting on the forums somehow accurately represented the tens of thousands who were playing the game. Ludicrous.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

5/02/13 12:52:00 PM#251
Originally posted by Miblet
Originally posted by jacktors
Originally posted by hMJem
The thing you guys are overlooking is that.. you're the minority. Casual gamers are the target. It would be stupid for a business to cater towards hardcores if they can cater to casuals for bigger numbers and more easily. Fact is, just because you post on MMORPG doesnt mean everyone does. In fact, id be willing to bet less than 1% of a games player/fanbase bothers to post online on forums. Most casuals just want a game they can pick up and play for an hour or 2 at a time, then go about their day. You put money up on a business and you make a game that caters towards a minority.. Let us know how it goes. Phasing and instancing is done because its more popular, and no, it isnt false just because youre posting here saying it isnt. Most casuals dont go on message boards.

If that was true, then SWTOR would not have failed. I think you are wrong about your assessment. I think the people who post on this forum are a good representation of gamers out there. You are just assuming that we are the exact opposite of the representation of the gamers out there. I dont understand why you feel this way. 

The biggest problem SWToR had was lack of end game content.  When hardcore players race ahead and run out of content thats one thing, when even the casual players are doing it the game has issues.  The whole concept of keeping players in an MMO revolves around keeping them entertained, and SWToR did that for a month or two.  It had expected 4-6 months of time before players reached that stage and so players had nothing to do so a lot unsubbed and went elsewhere for their entertainment.  SWToR had a lesson to teach, have content ready before your current content is exhausted or have something to keep players entertained enough to keep subbing.  Also last I checked SWToR was chugging along, or does failed mean it failed to retain it's initial sub base?  It's switch to freemium?  I will agree it failed to reach it's projected profits but equally by that measure very few games are successes.

I also have yet to see a forum that is like the in game community.  Most forums are far more hostile, polarised and vocal than the vast majority you will meet in game.  (Note that I said majority, you will still find such people in game).

I totally agree.

And by the way, I dont agree with the assumption from the other poster that SWTOR was a bad game. My son and I have been playing it for the last couple months and having a lot of fun. Its a good, fun, game and the graphics are nice. That being said, I agree there isnt much of an endgame (we just hit level 55) and so for hardcore players who raced through the content, naturally they wouldnt like the game as much and would be frustrated. But the lack of an endgame doesnt mean the levelling part of the game isnt good. Its a themepark MMORPG which isnt everyone's cup of tea. But my boy is a star wars fan, doesnt care about raids and such, and he has had a great time levelling up. That being said, it wouldnt surprise me if we move on in a couple months, but still they will have gotten 5 months of subs from two people plus 2 purchases of the expansion, which isnt bad.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/02/13 12:55:47 PM#252
Oh the irony

Moaning about the game being "a daoc clone themepark"

Then using EQ as an example of "not a themepark"

EQ IS More themeparky than daoc. Vanilla EQ and daoc were very similar, but EQ turned towards instancing and endgame raid sets.

Of course TESO will be more themeparky than both though. But hopefully less so than other modern games like tsw, swtor, Neverwinter etc..

I'm thinking it will probably be gw2 done right.
  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2618

110100100

5/02/13 2:30:16 PM#253


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Oh the ironyMoaning about the game being "a daoc clone themepark"Then using EQ as an example of "not a themepark"EQ IS More themeparky than daoc. Vanilla EQ and daoc were very similar, but EQ turned towards instancing and endgame raid sets.Of course TESO will be more themeparky than both though. But hopefully less so than other modern games like tsw, swtor, Neverwinter etc..I'm thinking it will probably be gw2 done right.

daoc went the instance route too actually (following EQ's lead with LDON)when they released catacombs about year after EQ implemented their instances.

  Eol-

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 272

5/03/13 11:03:51 AM#254
Originally posted by tixylix
[mod edit]

and for every person like you there are probably half a dozen for whom open world PvP would be a no sale.

The developers need to pick an approach, stick with it, and do it well. No approach will please everybody. Every approach will turn off some players and appeal to others. If they do a PvE game with endgame raids, people will say its a WoW clone. If they do RvR people will say its a DAoC clone. If they focus on open world exploration without an immediate endgame for hardcore players, people will say its a themepark. People are going to criticize them no matter what they do simply because we all want something different than the next guy.

Personally I think they've picked a pretty good approach that should fill a good sized niche in the mmorpg market. It will be nice to have a game where they try to instill some pride in your realm/alliance in an ongoing campaign rather than have PvP be just queued battlegrounds and such. But it sounds like there will be plenty of PvE also. Should be a nice mix with a reasonably wide appeal.

Elladan - ESO (AD)
Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  eAzydaman

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 220

5/04/13 7:04:21 PM#255

This is actually a really bad idea. As someone said earlier why not only give people the choice, if you don't wanna PVP in PVE zones you just check a box and that's it. And then the people who love the immersion of going over to the enemy faction and exploring and PVPing?

It was SO much fun in DAOC to sneak over to midgard, took a really long time to get over there too and the excitement of staying alive and exploring was amazing. Oh well...

  JKwervo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 140

5/04/13 7:50:02 PM#256
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Oh the irony

Moaning about the game being "a daoc clone themepark"

Then using EQ as an example of "not a themepark"

EQ IS More themeparky than daoc. Vanilla EQ and daoc were very similar, but EQ turned towards instancing and endgame raid sets.

Of course TESO will be more themeparky than both though. But hopefully less so than other modern games like tsw, swtor, Neverwinter etc..

I'm thinking it will probably be gw2 done right.

 

Wishful thinking on your part. Lol
  RogueCaster

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/09
Posts: 9

5/05/13 1:42:17 PM#257
Originally posted by Eir_S

Well I'm back to wanting to skip this title altogether.  I always said "phasing" would be an issue for those seeking immersion.  Sure, if you can't PvP there's not much sense in seeing players from other factions, but how the HELL does making them not exist make up for it?

Stupid as fuck.  "Mega server" was just a lame buzzword all along.

Wow... I totally disagree. 

This totally takes away the grievers who will see the other faction and try to game the system.

WoW for example, players would try to stand in the opposite factions AE trying to trigger the PvP flag.

The biggest problem with MMOs is the players. Some players are simply disagreeable stupid morons with no life. Any method to keep the game fun by reigning in undesirables sounds good to me.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

5/05/13 1:50:31 PM#258
Originally posted by Eir_S

Well I'm back to wanting to skip this title altogether.  I always said "phasing" would be an issue for those seeking immersion.  Sure, if you can't PvP there's not much sense in seeing players from other factions, but how the HELL does making them not exist make up for it?

Stupid as fuck.  "Mega server" was just a lame buzzword all along.

 

this

  Nanfoodle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3367

5/05/13 9:49:51 PM#259
Originally posted by RogueCaster
Originally posted by Eir_S

Well I'm back to wanting to skip this title altogether.  I always said "phasing" would be an issue for those seeking immersion.  Sure, if you can't PvP there's not much sense in seeing players from other factions, but how the HELL does making them not exist make up for it?

Stupid as fuck.  "Mega server" was just a lame buzzword all along.

Wow... I totally disagree. 

This totally takes away the grievers who will see the other faction and try to game the system.

WoW for example, players would try to stand in the opposite factions AE trying to trigger the PvP flag.

The biggest problem with MMOs is the players. Some players are simply disagreeable stupid morons with no life. Any method to keep the game fun by reigning in undesirables sounds good to me.

This game wont be for everyone. All MMOs are like that and to the people who are shocked ESO fits in the same boat as most MMOs, not for everyone. I say, go find a game you do like, not like there is any lack of MMOs.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

5/06/13 4:07:50 AM#260
My main problem with MMOs is the lack of a lively or populated world. In a lot of games nowadays, I feel like I'm playing a single player game. I'm not fond of the "shards" on Neverwinter or Dragon Nest. I want to see people also exploring and questing. Don't ask why, maybe its because when I play MMO I dont want to feel like I'm playing a single player game. It ruins the experience for me if it feels like you're playing a game that's dead. I mean, call me crazy, but imagine if real life was instanced off? People right next to you in your city that you cant see because of phasing and sharding? I know, very obnoxious comparison, but I want to see people doing things, or interact with them, atleast something. I thought Vanilla WoW and EQ got that part right, to be honest.
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