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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » They turned a great sandbox genre into a Themepark.

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171 posts found
  ZedTheRock

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 175

4/19/13 12:34:49 PM#101
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is lots of TES fans here that love the game design. I have been playing TES forever and I for one cant wait to play the game they have designed. I personally think all the people crying about the DAoC model have not taken enough time to look into the game. Its dripping with TES lore, story, world and art, combat and the exploring added has some real depth. For a change here on MMOrpg.com. Lets not flip out yelling fail without knowing something about the game. MMOrpg.com forum hate is so thick sometimes I wonder why I even read the forums any more. Get a grip.

People have legitimate reasons to not like the design. It is called having an opinion.

What I find really offensive is the need for people like you to clasify a difference of opinon as HATE. So please, why don't YOU stop posting the HATE and let others share their opinions in peace. So please go ahead and take your own advice and stop reading if all you can do is accuse people of HATE.

King of the storm himself. It is what it is. Even Bill Murphy has talked about this hate and how sick of it he is. So I agree with him and its not anything but hate. If the game was a person this would be called prejudging also know as prejudice. We sit here never playing the game and yell how bad and wrong it is. We dont even have game play footage to be able to really even get a peak at it. This game could be the king of TES PvE and no one would know... why? Because you have not played it. So I dont spend much time here any more as I am sick of all the hate, besides I have things Im up to that are much more fun I wish I could talk about but cant. Later all.

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

SUP

  BrownAle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 402

4/21/13 2:14:23 PM#102
Originally posted by ZedTheRock
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is lots of TES fans here that love the game design. I have been playing TES forever and I for one cant wait to play the game they have designed. I personally think all the people crying about the DAoC model have not taken enough time to look into the game. Its dripping with TES lore, story, world and art, combat and the exploring added has some real depth. For a change here on MMOrpg.com. Lets not flip out yelling fail without knowing something about the game. MMOrpg.com forum hate is so thick sometimes I wonder why I even read the forums any more. Get a grip.

People have legitimate reasons to not like the design. It is called having an opinion.

What I find really offensive is the need for people like you to clasify a difference of opinon as HATE. So please, why don't YOU stop posting the HATE and let others share their opinions in peace. So please go ahead and take your own advice and stop reading if all you can do is accuse people of HATE.

King of the storm himself. It is what it is. Even Bill Murphy has talked about this hate and how sick of it he is. So I agree with him and its not anything but hate. If the game was a person this would be called prejudging also know as prejudice. We sit here never playing the game and yell how bad and wrong it is. We dont even have game play footage to be able to really even get a peak at it. This game could be the king of TES PvE and no one would know... why? Because you have not played it. So I dont spend much time here any more as I am sick of all the hate, besides I have things Im up to that are much more fun I wish I could talk about but cant. Later all.

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

 

Spot on. 

 

This site has renderd itself useless as a place to discuss mmorpg games.  Partly because most of the games on this list are no longer mmorpgs, but more so the people on these forums.

 

Its like this site is inhabited by people who hate mmorpg games more than anything.

 

People dont post honest "reviews" or even really discuss the game, its all about positioning and posturing some preconcieved opinion about the game, that opinion must be spammed and defended to the death.

 

You come to this site to read about what non factor systems and issues are gamebreaking and to see people post financial statements as proof they are right about a game being bad..

 

Nothing but political crap..and thats exactly what it is.  Decide when you see the game listed based on a bit of information if you will hate the game or love it..then find every reason possible to validate this instant judgement.

 

Also, it seems the more developers listen to this audience, the less unique and origional games we get.  I hope that developers eventually just ignore the forums and feedback and return to making games based on a vision (not damage control) i dont care how politically incorrect doing so is...we had better games back before they started listening.

 

But yeah...need to change the website to mmohate.com and give mmorpg.com to someone who will make use of the address.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3701

4/21/13 2:17:39 PM#103
Originally posted by ZedTheRock
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

There is lots of TES fans here that love the game design. I have been playing TES forever and I for one cant wait to play the game they have designed. I personally think all the people crying about the DAoC model have not taken enough time to look into the game. Its dripping with TES lore, story, world and art, combat and the exploring added has some real depth. For a change here on MMOrpg.com. Lets not flip out yelling fail without knowing something about the game. MMOrpg.com forum hate is so thick sometimes I wonder why I even read the forums any more. Get a grip.

People have legitimate reasons to not like the design. It is called having an opinion.

What I find really offensive is the need for people like you to clasify a difference of opinon as HATE. So please, why don't YOU stop posting the HATE and let others share their opinions in peace. So please go ahead and take your own advice and stop reading if all you can do is accuse people of HATE.

King of the storm himself. It is what it is. Even Bill Murphy has talked about this hate and how sick of it he is. So I agree with him and its not anything but hate. If the game was a person this would be called prejudging also know as prejudice. We sit here never playing the game and yell how bad and wrong it is. We dont even have game play footage to be able to really even get a peak at it. This game could be the king of TES PvE and no one would know... why? Because you have not played it. So I dont spend much time here any more as I am sick of all the hate, besides I have things Im up to that are much more fun I wish I could talk about but cant. Later all.

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

Excellent post Zed. Hope you stick around. We need more people around here with the ability to see through the sleight of hand to what is really going on. 

  bepolite

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/11
Posts: 55

Theres only one solution:
SANDPARK

4/21/13 6:56:07 PM#104

alright everbodys is free to deceide wether to like the develolpment of the game or not .

But what i ve read so far  specialy from our multipresent  (topicwise)  Sandboxmaniacs

its somekinda  of groundhog day  on argument basis .

 

Like the same thing said on xy games forums a thousend times .

  Brannik

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/04
Posts: 6

4/22/13 4:26:50 AM#105
Hopefully the single player Elder Scrolls Franchise will continue on whether or not this succeeds.   
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3701

4/22/13 5:13:12 AM#106
Originally posted by Brannik
Hopefully the single player Elder Scrolls Franchise will continue on whether or not this succeeds.   

Of course it will. This is why Zenimax Online was created by Zenimax Media, the parent company of Bethesda. Two studios working on 2 different games

  bubaluba

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/12
Posts: 464

4/22/13 5:30:44 AM#107
You turning something in to something what is not. Skyrim....Sandbox?? lol we play  for sure different games, how for heaven you can call ES a sandbox??. They did exactly what is only possible to do with this game.
  Stizzled

Gumshoe

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 981

Kill Your Heroes

4/22/13 5:37:34 AM#108
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

Excellent post Zed. Hope you stick around. We need more people around here with the ability to see through the sleight of hand to what is really going on. 

I would rather visit a website that allows MMO fans to freely discuss what we're passionate about, regardless of intent, than a website that shuts down anything other than praise. I, for one, am a proud member of the 'cesspool of the MMO community' as its been called and glad that MMORPG.com will never change.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

4/22/13 6:45:10 AM#109
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

Excellent post Zed. Hope you stick around. We need more people around here with the ability to see through the sleight of hand to what is really going on. 

I would rather visit a website that allows MMO fans to freely discuss what we're passionate about, regardless of intent, than a website that shuts down anything other than praise. I, for one, am a proud member of the 'cesspool of the MMO community' as its been called and glad that MMORPG.com will never change.

A fair notion by Zed to be honest, but it's difficult to see at what it is targetted at.

There is no sleight of hand involved with the hating and flaming which goes on here, and having complained to the moderators myself on this, I have only seen (I beleive) a single short term ban for person(s) involved. It is of course not directly available information - one may infer at best. However - an apology was forthcoming from the mods on a directly related issue. So to some extent, from my limited experience, they do seem to understand the issue.

But moderation is a really tricky issue which can turn into censorship in a single barely noticed step. All too often a strong rebuttal of an argument, or a strongly stated position is either mistaken for hatred or relabelled as hatred to cynically serve the counter argument. The worst cynics throw in direct personal insults - attacking the person rather than the argument they are making.

I would argue it is at this point that moderation has to step in.

Having a 'debate' as per the accepted definitions of this type of interraction does NOT require that the validity of another persons point of view is acknowledged. It is an all too common assumption that in not doing so, one is insulting those with a contrary opinion, and this tends to solicit direct personal insults from the worst of them. This in turn encourages tit for tat, of which many, inlcuding myself on one occassion, have been culpable.

The world over, debates occur where the validity of an opposing argument is attacked without the owner of the argument taking umbrage - they are after all trying to do the same to the other argument... casting doubts on the ability of the owner of an arguments ability to either understand the opposing position or indeed the ramifications of their own is all part and parcel of it. There are however rules involved on how far you can go.

One may not, in a University, Parliament, or other face to face debating forum call into question the honesty or personal integrity of other persons involved, but one may call inquestion the validity, the accuracy and the relevance of the argument of that person as much as you want.

What the sites referred to have done is to turn the rigour of debate on it's head by reacting to the innability of some people to separate criticism of their position from insults against themselves by jumping on the safe side of the fence.

The inherent limitations of the internet may make this necessary, I am not sure as to the validity of this, but I accept the possibility. In some ways it unfortunately seems an innevitable development.

It is in my opinion, a great shame - insofar as it means difficult subjects and polarised positions will be increasingly shied away from by the more politically correct, seeking to treat everyone as something other than robust adults, capable of taking cricism on the chin without reacting to it as personal.

It is, I would argue, more likley from a mediocrity of debate, that mediocre games will flow more readily.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3701

4/22/13 4:17:58 PM#110

The internet has anonymous discourse with few, if any consequences. That is not exactly news.

You don't even have to go that far: many people have remarkably different social behaviour when they get behind the wheel of an automobile. Road rage is also not news.

Some sites have more moderation than others. Also not news.

There are some who defend "free speech" above all else. Presumably even they have limits when it comes to racism, homophobia and other types of hate-mongering. At least, I hope so.

Temporary absences from a site are not an indication of bans. There are real life events... even beta weekends. This is also obvious.

Perhaps a better measure of behaving in a way contrary to the rules of a particular site is how often a poster's posts are moderated with edits or deletions? Just a thought...

Although, of course, there are some more skilled at provoking and trolling and some more ready to whine to moderators than others.  Some call that being good at internet. I just call it asshattery.

  Genadi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 124

Stupidity can't be taught

4/22/13 9:33:14 PM#111
Originally posted by ZedTheRock

Do like many true fans have done and go to a fansite forum and post there, hardly any hate and when a hate post crops up the fans quickly shoot the person down and he is promptly banned and made fun of.

 

Sadly mmorpg.com will never change as they allow the same people to spew vile hatred over and over and over and over and over because they have the fortitude to post hate and negative comments in such a way to skirt the bans here.  Instead of saying the game sucks, they will say it is contrary to some mythical gamestyle or some such crap that basically says the game sucks in the Top Hat and Monocle way.

 

 

Yes, yes when you see a point of view you disagree with disregard it and move onto a place where everyone shares your opinion.

What I like most about your post is you're completely oblivious to the fact you're contradicting yourself.... and people agree with you. Wow.

 

Kthanxbye.

 

  Stizzled

Gumshoe

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 981

Kill Your Heroes

4/23/13 12:42:08 AM#112
Originally posted by Caliburn101

A fair notion by Zed to be honest, but it's difficult to see at what it is targetted at.

There is no sleight of hand involved with the hating and flaming which goes on here, and having complained to the moderators myself on this, I have only seen (I beleive) a single short term ban for person(s) involved. It is of course not directly available information - one may infer at best. However - an apology was forthcoming from the mods on a directly related issue. So to some extent, from my limited experience, they do seem to understand the issue.

But moderation is a really tricky issue which can turn into censorship in a single barely noticed step. All too often a strong rebuttal of an argument, or a strongly stated position is either mistaken for hatred or relabelled as hatred to cynically serve the counter argument. The worst cynics throw in direct personal insults - attacking the person rather than the argument they are making.

I would argue it is at this point that moderation has to step in.

Having a 'debate' as per the accepted definitions of this type of interraction does NOT require that the validity of another persons point of view is acknowledged. It is an all too common assumption that in not doing so, one is insulting those with a contrary opinion, and this tends to solicit direct personal insults from the worst of them. This in turn encourages tit for tat, of which many, inlcuding myself on one occassion, have been culpable.

The world over, debates occur where the validity of an opposing argument is attacked without the owner of the argument taking umbrage - they are after all trying to do the same to the other argument... casting doubts on the ability of the owner of an arguments ability to either understand the opposing position or indeed the ramifications of their own is all part and parcel of it. There are however rules involved on how far you can go.

One may not, in a University, Parliament, or other face to face debating forum call into question the honesty or personal integrity of other persons involved, but one may call inquestion the validity, the accuracy and the relevance of the argument of that person as much as you want.

What the sites referred to have done is to turn the rigour of debate on it's head by reacting to the innability of some people to separate criticism of their position from insults against themselves by jumping on the safe side of the fence.

The inherent limitations of the internet may make this necessary, I am not sure as to the validity of this, but I accept the possibility. In some ways it unfortunately seems an innevitable development.

It is in my opinion, a great shame - insofar as it means difficult subjects and polarised positions will be increasingly shied away from by the more politically correct, seeking to treat everyone as something other than robust adults, capable of taking cricism on the chin without reacting to it as personal.

It is, I would argue, more likley from a mediocrity of debate, that mediocre games will flow more readily.

Your post extends well beyond the scope of this website. When you consider discussion on this site there can be no debate while neither party can accept the validity of the other's position, it only boils down into pointless argument. The point of debate is to change the opposition's mind, that cannot happen if they do not see any validity in their opponent's view.

 

Take for instance this thread, the OP claims that TES games have always been sandbox games, and that to turn this MMO into a themepark is wrong. I would argue that TES games have never been sandbox games and operate much like any themepark MMO (if they were to drop classes and level restricted zones). Now, if we step back and look at the issue objectively, we can see that both sides have a valid argument. It's simply up to one side to prove to the other that thier position is correct, which should be possible since both sides recognize the validity of each other's claims.

 

However, were I to just ignore any validity in the OP's claim and state that my position is the only correct one and that the OP is completely wrong then no debate can happen. He will never change my mind as I know for a fact that I am right. No debate can occur, only a back and forth argument.

 

Until people on this site can step back and look at issues objectively there will never be any actual debate on these forums. But, this will never happen because, in all honesty, most people who visit this website are not looking for any sort of meaningfull debate. The so called 'haters' and 'fanboys' both come here looking for a fight, though neither side would admit to it. Both sides, while under the guise of wanting to clean up this website, simply seek to use the moderaters to silence their opposition. I believe that most of the mods here realize this and do a great job considering.

 

So yes, Zed does indeed have a valid point. And, as he has said, there are other places on the internet that moderate one side's voice, leaving only the other. If that is what people are truely looking for then they should go there. However, the fact that they are here suggests that that's not what they're looking for. MMORPG.com silences no one's voice, and I'm happy for it, as are those who claim not to be. If they were unhappy they wouldn't be here, happily arguing with each other.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

4/24/13 3:38:54 AM#113
Originally posted by Stizzled
Originally posted by Caliburn101

Having a 'debate' as per the accepted definitions of this type of interraction does NOT require that the validity of another persons point of view is acknowledged. It is an all too common assumption that in not doing so, one is insulting those with a contrary opinion, and this tends to solicit direct personal insults from the worst of them. This in turn encourages tit for tat, of which many, inlcuding myself on one occassion, have been culpable.

Your post extends well beyond the scope of this website. When you consider discussion on this site there can be no debate while neither party can accept the validity of the other's position, it only boils down into pointless argument. The point of debate is to change the opposition's mind, that cannot happen if they do not see any validity in their opponent's view.

However, were I to just ignore any validity in the OP's claim and state that my position is the only correct one and that the OP is completely wrong then no debate can happen. He will never change my mind as I know for a fact that I am right. No debate can occur, only a back and forth argument.

I feel that you missed the point here.

I am talking about contrary arguments - not ones with some shared middle ground. Those should, and do get acknowledged. I did not state that validity which does exist should be ignored - in fact, I beleive exactly the opposite.

It is the deliberate ignoring of validity where it exists from the pojnt of view of the oppossing poster which is one problem - and one which commonly leads to (or perhaps flows from...) a desire to be insulting to the other person rather than tackling their argument.

If people DID tackle the argument - it would be far more likely whatever common ground was there would be acknowledged.

This is and has always been my perspective, and one I feel you have not quite understood based on what you have written.

However, as you have tackled the argument and not the individual, kept to a reasoned approach and sought to justify what you have stated, I now have the opportunity to forward OUR debate with some hope of positive resolution.

I wish more people would take the same tack...

Lastly though, I do feel I need to state that debate IS back and forth argument, I would defy anyone to manage to avoid this process in any discussed difference of opinion, however small.

  Stizzled

Gumshoe

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 981

Kill Your Heroes

4/25/13 5:22:09 AM#114
Originally posted by Caliburn101

I feel that you missed the point here.

I am talking about contrary arguments - not ones with some shared middle ground. Those should, and do get acknowledged. I did not state that validity which does exist should be ignored - in fact, I beleive exactly the opposite.

It is the deliberate ignoring of validity where it exists from the pojnt of view of the oppossing poster which is one problem - and one which commonly leads to (or perhaps flows from...) a desire to be insulting to the other person rather than tackling their argument.

If people DID tackle the argument - it would be far more likely whatever common ground was there would be acknowledged.

This is and has always been my perspective, and one I feel you have not quite understood based on what you have written.

However, as you have tackled the argument and not the individual, kept to a reasoned approach and sought to justify what you have stated, I now have the opportunity to forward OUR debate with some hope of positive resolution.

I wish more people would take the same tack...

Lastly though, I do feel I need to state that debate IS back and forth argument, I would defy anyone to manage to avoid this process in any discussed difference of opinion, however small.

I don't believe there exists any truely contrary arguments where one side's position has absolutely no validity. There is always some validity to any arguement whether the opposition can see it or not. In any case, my original intent was not to discuss what true debate is or what allows it to occur, but to point out the differences between a debate and a fight. On that I believe we're in agreement, for the most part. Tackling the issues is having a meaningful debate, while attacking an individual is just looking to pick a fight.

 

It's my belief that most of the posters who visit these game specific forums here on MMORPG.com are just looking for a fight. They don't come here with any intentions of debating an issue, they just wish to spew hate at each other. Those labeled 'Haters' come to pick a fight and the 'Fanboys' come looking to engage in one. Those of us who actually do wish to discuss a given issue are usually pushed aside, or left unable to explain the merits of our positions to those who refuse to acknowledge them.

 

If MMORPG.com was to clean up all the hate that comes from both sides then these game specific forums wouldn't exist. These forums are built on a bedrock of hate, and one either likes it or they don't. Those who don't should absolutely seek out another avenue of discussion, but they should just go and not stick around constantly trying to change how this site is run.

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1099

4/25/13 11:34:14 AM#115
World of The Elder Scrolls.
  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2608

110100100

4/25/13 11:48:33 AM#116


Originally posted by tixylix
World of The Elder Scrolls.

world of trollcraft

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3359

4/25/13 12:04:52 PM#117
Originally posted by tixylix
World of The Elder Scrolls.

This game is so far from be a WoW clone. Its taken DAoC PvP, Warhammer and Rifts Public quest system, SWToR VO story, EQ open world dungeons and for crafting something between SWG / DAoC / SWToR crafting. Where player gear matters a lot and dropped gear is made even better by crafters. WoW hub questing mixed with GW2 open world questing. So ya... just like WoW lol 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/25/13 12:30:21 PM#118
More like gw2 pvp to be honest. They will probably have some equivelent to daoc renown ranks though. The whole being able to guest in campaigns and transfer campaigns business suggests we are in for gw2 style lobsidedness

The events sound more like gw2 than war / rift too.

I think the quests will work more like tsw than like swtor or wow. Personally I think this is ok, better than hub based, but I would prefer them to work like tes.

The crafting sounds like a mix between daoc and tes (which is a good thing, crafting should be important)
  nilden

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 886

4/25/13 12:32:41 PM#119
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by tixylix
World of The Elder Scrolls.

This game is so far from be a WoW clone. Its taken DAoC PvP, Warhammer and Rifts Public quest system, SWToR VO story, EQ open world dungeons and for crafting something between SWG / DAoC / SWToR crafting. Where player gear matters a lot and dropped gear is made even better by crafters. WoW hub questing mixed with GW2 open world questing. So ya... just like WoW lol 

It's sad that your entire defence just makes it sound like a generic copycat MMO.

How to post links. Check it Archeage
LoveMinecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/25/13 12:37:32 PM#120
I don't think you can call it a wow clone though.

Rift is a wow clone, swtor is a wow clone, wildstar sounds like a wow clone, then you have numerous f2p games like perfect world.

But people take this wow clone stuff too far. I've seen people claiming the likes of gw2, war and tsw are wow clones when they plainly aren't.
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