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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » This would be much better with 2 major factions

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75 posts found
  sapphen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 912

4/09/13 4:09:03 PM#41
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 2861

4/09/13 4:26:22 PM#42
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

Most MMOs dont want to take on a 3 faction game because its a lot more work. 9 factions 8O I dont think the devs would know where to start.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1460

4/09/13 4:29:52 PM#43

I have to disagree with the OP. Population imbalances in two faction play are not only more common, but have more severe consequences.

When I played DAoC, Albion clearly had the highest population on my server. However, Hibernia and Midgard weren't too far behind. At the same time, Hibernia and Midgard produced better tactics than just zerging because those realms had to deal with lesser populations. It was also pretty common for Mid and Hib to team up when Alb had superior numbers to both armies. This created a more dynamic battlefield environment, and created more opportunities for better tactics to overcome sheer numbers.

When I played WoW (quit about a month ago now). My server had a 1.5 to 1 Alliance to Horde ratio for the majority of my time there. For areas such as Wintergrasp or Tol Barad, the alliance's ability to put more numbers into the battlefield guaranteed victory nearly every time. The battlefield was less dynamic, simply because Alliance always had superior numbers. There were numerous servers where population imbalances for Alliance or Horde were 2:1 or greater. A third faction in WoW would have spread the population out more, and the more severe population imbalances probably would not have so readily happened.

As far as GW2 goes. I would say the three server system in WvW works well, but an extended period of free transfers (which should have ended after a week or two) is what screwed things up more. There was a ton of server hopping going on that really skewed the population numbers. Additionally, not having Oceanic Servers separate from NA servers is problematic as well. Some servers have large guilds from NA and Oceanic regions, which means they have a large force available 24 hours per day, and that works well when those servers are matched up. However, not all servers have large WvW guilds running. My server, Isles of Janthir, seems to be more of an Oceanic server (lots of Aussies), so our WvW force is more active during non-NA peak times. We do well during the day or very late at night, however, when NA peak time rolls around, the Aussies are in non-peak hours, and we don't seem to have many NA WvW guilds, so all the work we did during the day is negated at night, and the servers we are match up against seem to have a decent force 24 hours per day. We've had the same matchup for about a month now. As servers keep losing the three way matchups, more guilds up and move to greener pastures, which only makes the problem worse. So, it's not the 3 faction system that failed GW2's WvW, it's more of an issue of population imbalances of play times and population numbers. If it was a two server matchup, servers with 24 hour forces would completely dominate servers without. If anything, ANet needs to create incentives for guilds to spread out more, and create more balanced server populations.

  ElRenmazuo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3459

4/09/13 5:29:08 PM#44
Originally posted by rojo6934

i think the game would do better without the 3 player factions (or even 2 like OP says).

 

Let everyone hang out together in game. All PvE. You would have the freedom to choose to join a real Elder Scroll faction in game (dark brotherhood, thieves, mages, etc) and through them you can do all different types and modes of PvP that would benefit your faction as a hole. Everyone will be neutral out in the world. You can only be flagged for pvp to other faction if you choose to go against them for the overall benefit of your own faction. Once you start looking for trouble you will stay enemy of the members of that faction you offended in some way (giving you the option to redeem yourself and be forgiven by betraying your faction and joiniing them, otherwise you stay enemy to them)

 

This

  muffins89

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1247

4/09/13 6:34:19 PM#45
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

Most MMOs dont want to take on a 3 faction game because its a lot more work. 9 factions 8O I dont think the devs would know where to start.

it'd be pretty simple.  get rid of factions and just have guilds.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  Sentnl

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 79

4/09/13 7:25:48 PM#46

Ridiculous.

I've never seen, in three sided pvp, the two bigger ones pick on the little guy... I've never seen it, I've always seen the two smaller ones, pick on the bigger guy, until the tide changes and it goes back to normal.

In two faction pvp, you will NEVER experience:

*Backdooring a fight in progress

*Being flanked while already in a fight

*Having three realms stand off against each other, waiting to see who engages first

*Competition that isn't just back and forth, like you get with two factions (provided the landscape is good)

~~

Not only is there not one benefit of two factions, over three factions - that I can think off... but it's a too simple structure, and I don't think the OP has ever done any serious pvping.

 

I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

4/11/13 7:23:13 AM#47
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

I don't normally dissagree with you sapphen - but a 9-way fight would be a mess, and in any case, would likely polarise into two or three allied factions after a while anyway, and ones much more unstable than would otherwise be.

Now in a game where everyone was immersed 24/7 that might work - but in a game like this, it's a strong possibility that it would provide an invitation for the 24/7 players to dominate beyond all level of control, and the casuals to leave in droves.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/11/13 8:19:17 AM#48

Wait a minute here. Every game that comes out with two faction PvP gets ripped apart because it doesn't have three faction PvP. Now people are complaining because a new game is coming out with three faction PvP instead of two faction PvP?

Is it any wonder that instead of listening to all the suggestions from forums such as these that developers just shrug and make the game they want to make?

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

4/11/13 10:04:46 AM#49
Originally posted by tkreep
Originally posted by rojo6934

i think the game would do better without the 3 player factions (or even 2 like OP says).

 

Let everyone hang out together in game. All PvE. You would have the freedom to choose to join a real Elder Scroll faction in game (dark brotherhood, thieves, mages, etc) and through them you can do all different types and modes of PvP that would benefit your faction as a hole. Everyone will be neutral out in the world. You can only be flagged for pvp to other faction if you choose to go against them for the overall benefit of your own faction. Once you start looking for trouble you will stay enemy of the members of that faction you offended in some way (giving you the option to redeem yourself and be forgiven by betraying your faction and joiniing them, otherwise you stay enemy to them)

 

This

Very good description of the ESO that wasn't made. They made this one instead--not Darkfall, not Asheron's Call, not Lineage, not Skyrim Online the co-op game.

I don't know why some people have so much faith that FFA games with few rules always turn out well or have mass appeal. Eve is the exception, not the rule. Most of them degenerate into ugly little niche messes in no time flat.

  sapphen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 912

4/11/13 10:16:41 AM#50
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

I don't normally dissagree with you sapphen - but a 9-way fight would be a mess, and in any case, would likely polarise into two or three allied factions after a while anyway, and ones much more unstable than would otherwise be.

Now in a game where everyone was immersed 24/7 that might work - but in a game like this, it's a strong possibility that it would provide an invitation for the 24/7 players to dominate beyond all level of control, and the casuals to leave in droves.

Well 9 factions would be too much... if we couldn't temporarily align ourselves with another faction.  There would have to be an intricate system designed around for it to work in any degree but it's a novel idea.

Another MMO tried something similar a few years back.  They had a whole slew of factions, each faction made alliances with each other and it eventually lead to one massive gang that controlled all the areas.  There would be groups sitting just inside the PvP areas and charge people a toll to enter or they'll spawn camp you.  It was a horrible experience for the players but I have always been intrigued by the system.  It's funny, even in the digital world when given the freedom, we will bully and extort people of a different group.  I can't help to think with a few soft rules and influences, it could've been a great system.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

4/11/13 10:30:21 AM#51
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Caliburn101
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Arun
3 is just more interesting than 2.

Heck, I'd would've liked to see 9 factions with each race belonging to their own faction.

I don't normally dissagree with you sapphen - but a 9-way fight would be a mess, and in any case, would likely polarise into two or three allied factions after a while anyway, and ones much more unstable than would otherwise be.

Now in a game where everyone was immersed 24/7 that might work - but in a game like this, it's a strong possibility that it would provide an invitation for the 24/7 players to dominate beyond all level of control, and the casuals to leave in droves.

Well 9 factions would be too much... if we couldn't temporarily align ourselves with another faction.  There would have to be an intricate system designed around for it to work in any degree but it's a novel idea.

Another MMO tried something similar a few years back.  They had a whole slew of factions, each faction made alliances with each other and it eventually lead to one massive gang that controlled all the areas.  There would be groups sitting just inside the PvP areas and charge people a toll to enter or they'll spawn camp you.  It was a horrible experience for the players but I have always been intrigued by the system.  It's funny, even in the digital world when given the freedom, we will bully and extort people of a different group.  I can't help to think with a few soft rules and influences, it could've been a great system.

Your post reminded me about this classic old study by John Calhoun I first heard about many years ago in university which I've never forgotten. This is the short summary:

In the early 1960s, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) acquired property in a rural area outside Poolesville, Maryland. The facility that was built on this property housed several research projects, including those headed by Calhoun. It was here that his most famous experiment, the mouse universe, was created.[1] In July 1968 four pairs of mice were introduced into the Utopian universe. The universe was a 9-foot (2.7 m) square metal pen with 54-inch-high (1.4 m) sides. Each side had four groups of four vertical, wire mesh “tunnels”. The “tunnels” gave access to nesting boxes, food hoppers, and water dispensers. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.

Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly. The last surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against. After day 600 the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed “the beautiful ones”.

The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1754

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/11/13 1:56:21 PM#52
Two factions simply don't work since one side will always be bigger and thus steamroll the other. Just look at past two-faction games. Only way to make it work is to enforce even teams in instanced battlegrounds, where any number of factions will work.

Currently playing: FTL, Hearthstone and Reaper of Souls.
Eagerly anticipating: Divinity: Original Sin, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  Eol-

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 263

4/11/13 2:26:15 PM#53
Originally posted by Alders  
Doesn't change the fact that he's right.  Times and players have changed.  No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go.  2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.

 

There is so much wrong about this post it is hard to tell where to start.

First of all, who says that big PvP guilds will all go to the same place? This in a game with many campaigns (eg servers) and three different alliances?

And even if they did,how could you possibly know that the alliance with some PvP guilds will be able to beat two other alliances combined?

Third, how do you know these guilds will roll the same alliance? If they roll different alliances it increases the odds they will be pitted against each other.

Fourth, choice of alliance wont be automatic, it seems like the game will have some control over changes of campaigns which will make it hard for such guilds to end up in the same campaign in the same alliance.

Fifth, how could you possibly know that no one cares about server/faction pride? You speak for everyone? In a game that is PvP endgame focused, players will have a strong incentive to work together, and continue to do so. In fact the alliances that do this first and best will have a big advantage. In games where PvP is instanced its a lot different than games where PvP is perpetual; you will see many of the same players over and over and over, unlike an instanced games where when one BG ends, you re-queue and find yourself in an entirely new team.

Your logic applies more to a game where PvP consists of battlegrounds with relatively small groups where elite teams can dominate. That same logic doesnt apply so much to games with alliances and persistent campaigns with persistent players/teammates.

Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Eol-

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 263

4/11/13 2:28:58 PM#54
Originally posted by Axxar
Two factions simply don't work since one side will always be bigger and thus steamroll the other. Just look at past two-faction games. Only way to make it work is to enforce even teams in instanced battlegrounds, where any number of factions will work.

and even that doesnt make it work very well because then coordinated teams will dominate pickup groups. The hardcore players dominate even more in even numbered battles because of this. But even a coordinated hardcore group will get zerged when they are a small fraction of their alliance and the other alliance(s) are more numerous.

There is much more flexibility and adaptability in a 3 realm system. Not to say it always works - nothing ALWAYS works - but the mechanism for self-correction is much better than in a 2 realm system where once one side gets a big advantage it is much less likely to self-correct.

Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
Kili - WoW
Eol - Lineage 2
Camring - SWG
Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  Grunch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 520

4/13/13 12:34:04 PM#55
Originally posted by TheScavenger

WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance. You didn't have anyone ganging up on the little guy either. It also made the game more interesting. This also proved to be a far more popular design, as seen by how many people got into it.

 

In WoW, you had Alliance vs Horde. If they were to have done capture points in the open world, it would have been far more hectic than if you had a third faction.

 

Just imagine

 

A 100 vs 100 battle (if they had that in WoW)...all even. This is epic. But then if there was a 3rd faction, they'd come along and greatly overbalance one side and the battle becomes no fun anymore. The only people who would have fun are the one that pwn the now greatly outnumbered side.

 

Three factions can never be balanced, as seen in DAOC. One faction is always greatly outnumbered and gets pwned all the time...they can't play the game or capture anything, because the two sides always go after them as they are easy pickings. This will be even more true with the modern MMO crowd, who always choose the 1 (or 2) most popular sides and want the easy pickings of the weak faction.

 

That is never a problem with 2 factions, as WoW proved.

 

(edit: Also look at GW2. It has three servers against each other, but one server is ALWAYS getting pwned so badly. Most badly I've seen thus far is one server had 200k points, another 190k points and the third had a measly 6k points. This again would be vastly different in a server vs setup, and not a three way server battle).

 

So I think they should have the 3rd faction be AI controlled only, so they don't have to redesign or get rid of anything. An AI controlled faction would be rather interesting anyway.

Is this a joke thread?

Great idea! Copy WoW because that has never been done before. 3 factions is waaaaay better then just 2. With two factions one will always outnumber the other and then the underdog stops logging in. Go back to 2001 and play DAoC and you will see how much better three factions are then two. At least with three factions the lower populated realm can jump into a fight between the other two realms or while the other two are fighting each other they can capture a holding or something.

"I'm sorry but your mmo has been diagnosed with EA and only has X number of days to live."

  baphamet

Elite Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2579

110100100

4/13/13 4:17:27 PM#56


Originally posted by Alders

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by azzamasin I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.
Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.
TSW is crap, PS2 is a Shooter, GW2's WvW is crap.  2 of these I played offerd no real group or faction specific incentives it was all personal.   TSW and GW2 do something that DAoC never did.  No racial enmity, enemies can group in PvE and there is no  cause for killing other then to gain artificial points.  Plus the PvP (RvR) areas they do battle in is about the size of a peanut compared to the large area of DAoC's frontier (and ESO's Cryodill).   PS2 is just a shooter and does not appeal to the same type of gamer so that is a non issue in my book.
 

Doesn't change the fact that he's right.  Times and players have changed.  No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore and will flock to the side where the most "known" large PVP guilds decide to go.  2 weaker factions ganging up on the larger one will last a week at most until players reroll for easy wins.


except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you.

if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign.

unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.

  Nerfmeh

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/11
Posts: 36

4/13/13 4:32:41 PM#57
Well personally if i had the power would insert like 10+ factions ( clans ) .... cos why the hell not ?
  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

4/13/13 4:39:07 PM#58
Originally posted by baphamet

except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you.

if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign.

unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.

Except players are douchebags. A fair number will just stop logging in because they perceive that they cannot win and therefore its impossible to try. But honestly, based on what has been said its not designed that way anyhow as you can always join your friends campaign. Campaigns have been said to be synonomous with shards/servers being the thing that you are tied to but not confined to.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  baphamet

Elite Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2579

110100100

4/13/13 9:08:56 PM#59


Originally posted by Livnthedream

Originally posted by baphamet except i am willing to bet that wont work in TESO unless you are a member of those guilds. i don't think you pick which pvp campaign to join, one is assigned to you. if you re-roll a different faction it will not put you in the same campaign you were just in with another character, it will put you in a different campaign. unless you delete that character maybe? even then i don't think you can pick which campaign to join but ya never know.
Except players are douchebags. A fair number will just stop logging in because they perceive that they cannot win and therefore its impossible to try. But honestly, based on what has been said its not designed that way anyhow as you can always join your friends campaign. Campaigns have been said to be synonomous with shards/servers being the thing that you are tied to but not confined to.

from the info we have, you cannot "join" campaigns, they are assigned to you.

if you are in a campaign with your friends and/or guild, then you are tied to that campaign.

now i am not 100% positive on the next statement as it has not yet been confirmed but i would be willing to bet that if you decide to change campaigns, you cannot just pick one that is winning, another one would likely be assigned to you.

i make that assumption based on the fact that you are not allowed to pick a campaign to begin with, hopefully you cannot if you decide to switch as well.

as far as your point about people not doing pvp that are assigned to a campaign where their faction is losing (they can still log in and decide not to participate in the pvp) that is an issue that plagues any mmo with optional pvp similar to this.

the devs have said that when a faction is low in numbers in a certain campaign, they will add new players to that campaign to try and even it out.

which is another reason why i believe they will not let you pick what campaign you want to join thus further making the factions unbalanced.


  baphamet

Elite Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2579

110100100

4/13/13 11:09:07 PM#60

another thing to consider is these pvp campaigns have a shelf life, whenever the campaigns end they can re-balance them similar to what GW2 does.

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