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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » This would be much better with 2 major factions

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75 posts found
  sketocafe

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 579

4/09/13 1:50:15 PM#21
There are plenty of sites that'll list wow's realm population. None of them are balanced and most are highly skewed in favor of one faction or the other.  If it "works" as you say, it's only because the pvp which happens in wow takes place in balanced instances. This is not the case with ESO. 
  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 687

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  4/09/13 2:02:06 PM#22
Originally posted by Slapshot1188
Originally posted by Alders

   No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore

Umm... I do...

 

I guess that should have been the main point in my post, though I did bring it up. Maybe 2 factions wouldn't work either, since someone did bring up that WoW is mostly balanced due to instancing.

 

But, while there are people with server/faction pride...I even saw it in some larger GW2 servers and the RP-PvP servers in WoW (I played Emerald Dream). However...I'll say it again.

 

The MMO community (and gaming community in general) in modern times...is very different.

 

Most/A lot of people will almost always go to the faction that is winning. Heck, when GW2 had free server transfers...almost everyone transferred to the servers that had the best PvPers or who were winning the most. I guess WoW had the same problem in a lot of servers (like Illidan and Tichondrius).

 

So maybe factions just don't really work at all, in these modern times. Though I never did play WAR, I did hear of very unbalanced sides...but never really looked into it, since not a big fan of the lore of the fantasy version (though I like WAR 40k quite a bit).

 

But, recent MMOs are a great example of people joining the biggest or/and the most powerful PvP guilds. Along with whatever side is winning. And I guess 2, 3 or 4 or 5 don't make that big of a difference.

 

With 3, I guess it may be a bit better than 2...but there is a high chance people will go after the weak, easy to kill faction. A lot of modern gamers want easy kills and an easy game. Just take a look at some of the open world deathmatch PvP full loot MMOs. High levels going around pwning level 1s (or in EVE's case, low skilled (actual skill level, not how good/bad they are at the game) players) and newbies to said MMO...no challenge. Just going around pwning everything that is easy to kill.

 

So, maybe ESO won't attract that...but there is a high chance with these new type of gamers, that two factions will ally and always pwn the weak faction. And then "everyone" joins the winning side(s) and the 3rd faction can't barely do anything. As seen in other games.

 

But I guess the same can easily be done with 2 factions...and if there is a population cap in one faction (that has been done before), everyone hates it.

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  ScriptZ

Novice Member

Joined: 1/25/08
Posts: 75

4/09/13 2:16:35 PM#23
Originally posted by rojo6934

i think the game would do better without the 3 player factions (or even 2 like OP says).

 

Let everyone hang out together in game. All PvE. You would have the freedom to choose to join a real Elder Scroll faction in game (dark brotherhood, thieves, mages, etc) and through them you can do all different types and modes of PvP that would benefit your faction as a hole. Everyone will be neutral out in the world. You can only be flagged for pvp to other faction if you choose to go against them for the overall benefit of your own faction. Once you start looking for trouble you will stay enemy of the members of that faction you offended in some way (giving you the option to redeem yourself and be forgiven by betraying your faction and joiniing them, otherwise you stay enemy to them)

 

I dunno I think if you join one of the ingame factions ppl of the other factions should be flagged to you, if you was gonna go that route just to make it feel more realistic. Me a member of the dark brotherhood able to kill a mage and what not would be really cool. The reason I do like the 3 faction setup or even 2 faction is for the pride factor and the hate that I start to develop in game for the other faction/s.  But your way has some merit to it also being able to be Dark brotherhood and everyone hate me and wanna kill me with me still able to be any race would be kinda nice aswell. But I'm not picky I'll take either way as long as I can attack my enemy and be able to recognize my enemy from  a distance.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3460

4/09/13 2:18:35 PM#24
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by azzamasin

I suggest you look up this little game that was titled DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) to get a sense for what a 3rd faction does to combat the overpopulated and winning faction.

Except newer games have shown just how false that is. Tsw, Ps2, Gw2. They all show a much more selfish playerbase more willing to get theres before they get got, rather than team up to rule. I have heard this happened in said Daoc also, but I have no personal experience with it to say.

Communities dont just show up. It takes time for servers to gell and learn to work together. DAoC took about a year or so before things really got rolling. Before that people were zerging as well. What else do you do? GW2 will find its grove but not as well as ESO will do. In ESO you are not part of some 2 week war. You will get to know each factions, the guilds you face and the players. In time your conflict will learn who is the underdog and tatics and alliances will form. But that does not happen a few months from launch.

P.S. 3 faction war all the way, sorry OP unless you been there you dont get it.

  versulas

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 284

4/09/13 2:27:53 PM#25

Someone never played WAR where the faction imbalance of 2 realms got to be so bad on -most- servers that they had to offer incentives like +xp rate in order to get people to roll on the less populated factions. Hell, even today look at SWTOR, not a single damn realm is balanced anywhere near the 50/50 ratio line (admittedly hard to gauge with free accounts being created).

At least with 3 factions an underpopulated realm has the chance to make a difference in the larger scheme of things and isn't simply getting rolled over constantly.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3460

4/09/13 2:37:55 PM#26
Originally posted by versulas

Someone never played WAR where the faction imbalance of 2 realms got to be so bad on -most- servers that they had to offer incentives like +xp rate in order to get people to roll on the less populated factions. Hell, even today look at SWTOR, not a single damn realm is balanced anywhere near the 50/50 ratio line (admittedly hard to gauge with free accounts being created).

At least with 3 factions an underpopulated realm has the chance to make a difference in the larger scheme of things and isn't simply getting rolled over constantly.

I was on a under dog server in DAoC. Mid faction had the highest population and hib and ab had 1/2 of what midguard had. We had tatics and guilds working together. Was a lot of fun winning and being the underdog. Took a few years work to get there but it was so worth it. Even had a battle where 40 of us took out over a 100 Midgaurds. Most fun I have ever had PvPing.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/09/13 2:44:42 PM#27
I don't really like hard-coded factions to begin with so maybe I'm out of the loop, but I just find something very funny in this. While I'll assume it wasn't the OP, every single two faction set-up I've seen has had a huge amount of posters up in arms about how two factions doesn't work, "three is always better". Are we going to see the reverse now, starting with this thread?

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3460

4/09/13 2:56:20 PM#28
Originally posted by Distopia
I don't really like hard-coded factions to begin with so maybe I'm out of the loop, but I just find something very funny in this. While I'll assume it wasn't the OP, every single two faction set-up I've seen has had a huge amount of posters up in arms about how two factions doesn't work, "three is always better". Are we going to see the reverse now, starting with this thread?

This was often true was the problem. WoW, with ally having Paladin they could do molten core with lower end gear. Where hord did better in PvP with the shaman. SWToR same thing again. Sith were lighting and insta DPS where Jedi were kenitic and the damage would not hit till the graphics landed. ESO has done it right IMO. All classes are open to all races. Should really help with who is better. No one.

  khartokhar3

Novice Member

Joined: 10/27/07
Posts: 490

4/09/13 3:11:47 PM#29
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Slapshot1188
Originally posted by Alders

   No one gives a shit about server/faction pride anymore

Umm... I do...

 

I guess that should have been the main point in my post, though I did bring it up. Maybe 2 factions wouldn't work either, since someone did bring up that WoW is mostly balanced due to instancing.

 

But, while there are people with server/faction pride...I even saw it in some larger GW2 servers and the RP-PvP servers in WoW (I played Emerald Dream). However...I'll say it again.

 

The MMO community (and gaming community in general) in modern times...is very different.

 

Most/A lot of people will almost always go to the faction that is winning. Heck, when GW2 had free server transfers...almost everyone transferred to the servers that had the best PvPers or who were winning the most. I guess WoW had the same problem in a lot of servers (like Illidan and Tichondrius).

 

So maybe factions just don't really work at all, in these modern times. Though I never did play WAR, I did hear of very unbalanced sides...but never really looked into it, since not a big fan of the lore of the fantasy version (though I like WAR 40k quite a bit).

 

But, recent MMOs are a great example of people joining the biggest or/and the most powerful PvP guilds. Along with whatever side is winning. And I guess 2, 3 or 4 or 5 don't make that big of a difference.

 

With 3, I guess it may be a bit better than 2...but there is a high chance people will go after the weak, easy to kill faction. A lot of modern gamers want easy kills and an easy game. Just take a look at some of the open world deathmatch PvP full loot MMOs. High levels going around pwning level 1s (or in EVE's case, low skilled (actual skill level, not how good/bad they are at the game) players) and newbies to said MMO...no challenge. Just going around pwning everything that is easy to kill.

 

So, maybe ESO won't attract that...but there is a high chance with these new type of gamers, that two factions will ally and always pwn the weak faction. And then "everyone" joins the winning side(s) and the 3rd faction can't barely do anything. As seen in other games.

 

But I guess the same can easily be done with 2 factions...and if there is a population cap in one faction (that has been done before), everyone hates it.

 

well your 2nd post seems to be more thought out than the first one. the first one just sounded like u wanted to troll.

so im a rvr fan and i actually have played all rvr mmos that have been released the last years. in your first post you claimed that a 2 faction game could work better than a 3 faction game. this is just not true. all the 2 faction games have problems with server balancing. lets take aion or war for example. i have played them both for a long time and the balancing is horrible. u can actually say that on most servers one faction is totally dominatin the other one.

imo every rvr game will have that problem bc - as some ppl mentioned before - the most gamers are selfish. they will just join the winnin side. they maybe could solve the problem by implementin a 3rd npc faction which always forms an allinace with the weaker one.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/09/13 3:23:53 PM#30
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia
I don't really like hard-coded factions to begin with so maybe I'm out of the loop, but I just find something very funny in this. While I'll assume it wasn't the OP, every single two faction set-up I've seen has had a huge amount of posters up in arms about how two factions doesn't work, "three is always better". Are we going to see the reverse now, starting with this thread?

This was often true was the problem. WoW, with ally having Paladin they could do molten core with lower end gear. Where hord did better in PvP with the shaman. SWToR same thing again. Sith were lighting and insta DPS where Jedi were kenitic and the damage would not hit till the graphics landed. ESO has done it right IMO. All classes are open to all races. Should really help with who is better. No one.

Certainly is true when talking about world (less restricted/controlled) PVP. Especially when one side has more of an appeal to the gamer populace at large, I don't think there's any getting around that without factions being near identical. Even then there's no chance of true balance, there are just too many variables to account for. Forcing new players to only join factions with less players is detrimental toward the whole service.

As for three being a fix to this, in can be in the right circumstance, but there's still no way to really force that balance. Three factions gives more options so it has that going for it. DAOC's history shows a mix of scenarios taking place, depending on era, as well as server.

I just hope they give all three factions a good amount of appeal in looks as well as choices.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

4/09/13 3:24:26 PM#31

I dunno what you're talking about. In daoc it was awesome when the two lower pop realms were teaming up on the big one.

 

Say the big realm with big numbers is invading another realm. The third realm can go invade the big realm's homelands, and the big realm is torn between defending and attacking. It worked so well. =)

 

With only 2 factions, even the slightest population imbalances starts to take all the fun out of it.


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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/09/13 3:42:56 PM#32
Originally posted by Tuktz

I dunno what you're talking about. In daoc it was awesome when the two lower pop realms were teaming up on the big one.

 

Say the big realm with big numbers is invading another realm. The third realm can go invade the big realm's homelands, and the big realm is torn between defending and attacking. It worked so well. =)

 

With only 2 factions, even the slightest population imbalances starts to take all the fun out of it.

A big fear seems to be present results of modern attempts at this, the tactic of splitting the larger force just doesn't happen. Instead they turn into games of musical keeps, where hardly any real conflict happens. WHen it does it's just a "zerg". I remember this starting in SWG near the end of the pre-cu era, and big time during the cu era, fights only happened if one side had more peeps, can't think of a game where that has changed since then. In the early days people liked to ensure a fun fight that could last for hours, as more people joined the genre that spirit was lost.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

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  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/09/13 3:47:20 PM#33

Having factions or the amount of factions has nothing to do with it.

Its the invisible walls closing them off and forcing race to faction that is wrong in terms of lore and limitaions of game design.

If anything, the game should have 4 factions...via the imperials.

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  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

4/09/13 3:47:53 PM#34
Originally posted by TheScavenger

WoW was the first to do only two major factions, instead of three. This worked out much better, for balance.

I've stopped reading after this. OP couldn't be more wrong and not knowing what he's talking about.

  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

4/09/13 3:48:19 PM#35

That's probably just a matter of incentivising splitting the zerg up into smaller groups. In DAOC a lot of times it was more strategic to split up for various objectives. Enemy can't defend everywhere at once very well.

 

Just gotta make it so maybe you don't get as much pvp points in a zerg too.

 

I would say 3 factions isn't the reason those recently didn't do so well, but the implementation of parts of it.

 

Just like 2 factions isn't why WOW has done so well since it's release, but rather how it implemented it.

 

 

For NON-instanced pvp/rvr/ava though, I'll always think 3 is better than 2.


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  Vladamyre

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/07
Posts: 241

4/09/13 3:50:08 PM#36
Three realms is always better then two. In Dark Age of Camelot I played on the Lancelot server, where the Albs had more then a 2 to 1 advantage of Hibs and Mids combined. Most of the time us Hibs teamed up with the Mids to smash the Albs, and it worked for years. Was the most fun I've ever had in any game so far. Hopefully TESO has gotten it right with the three factions, lets all hope for a great game!

In a world of sharp knives, you would be a spoon.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/09/13 3:53:35 PM#37
@ tuktz... That's certainly a possibility. With more incentives, it might happen, I question whether it's a lack of rewards or ego's that drives such mentalities though. One big thing I remember from my DAOC as well as early SWG days is we didn't care if we lost (my guild(s))

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3460

4/09/13 3:55:28 PM#38
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia
I don't really like hard-coded factions to begin with so maybe I'm out of the loop, but I just find something very funny in this. While I'll assume it wasn't the OP, every single two faction set-up I've seen has had a huge amount of posters up in arms about how two factions doesn't work, "three is always better". Are we going to see the reverse now, starting with this thread?

This was often true was the problem. WoW, with ally having Paladin they could do molten core with lower end gear. Where hord did better in PvP with the shaman. SWToR same thing again. Sith were lighting and insta DPS where Jedi were kenitic and the damage would not hit till the graphics landed. ESO has done it right IMO. All classes are open to all races. Should really help with who is better. No one.

Certainly is true when talking about world (less restricted/controlled) PVP. Especially when one side has more of an appeal to the gamer populace at large, I don't think there's any getting around that without factions being near identical. Even then there's no chance of true balance, there are just too many variables to account for. Forcing new players to only join factions with less players is detrimental toward the whole service.

As for three being a fix to this, in can be in the right circumstance, but there's still no way to really force that balance. Three factions gives more options so it has that going for it. DAOC's history shows a mix of scenarios taking place, depending on era, as well as server.

I just hope they give all three factions a good amount of appeal in looks as well as choices.

 

Population balance no, I was talking about class balance.

  MysteryB

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/25/08
Posts: 252

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Being Loved Gives You Strength

4/09/13 3:58:02 PM#39
You keep comparing it to WoW, lets not forget WoW isnt known for having the best PvP, Dark Age of Camelot was and probably still is the best pvp game and it perfected the 3 faction system. There are ways to balance it out, the game is going to be on 1 MEGA SERVER which means it will automatically switch people channels when fights are to one sided, the devs have explained that.

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  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15579

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

4/09/13 3:58:21 PM#40
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Distopia
I don't really like hard-coded factions to begin with so maybe I'm out of the loop, but I just find something very funny in this. While I'll assume it wasn't the OP, every single two faction set-up I've seen has had a huge amount of posters up in arms about how two factions doesn't work, "three is always better". Are we going to see the reverse now, starting with this thread?

This was often true was the problem. WoW, with ally having Paladin they could do molten core with lower end gear. Where hord did better in PvP with the shaman. SWToR same thing again. Sith were lighting and insta DPS where Jedi were kenitic and the damage would not hit till the graphics landed. ESO has done it right IMO. All classes are open to all races. Should really help with who is better. No one.

Certainly is true when talking about world (less restricted/controlled) PVP. Especially when one side has more of an appeal to the gamer populace at large, I don't think there's any getting around that without factions being near identical. Even then there's no chance of true balance, there are just too many variables to account for. Forcing new players to only join factions with less players is detrimental toward the whole service.

As for three being a fix to this, in can be in the right circumstance, but there's still no way to really force that balance. Three factions gives more options so it has that going for it. DAOC's history shows a mix of scenarios taking place, depending on era, as well as server.

I just hope they give all three factions a good amount of appeal in looks as well as choices.

 

Population balance no, I was talking about class balance.

I was aware of that before I started typing lol..My bad, I have a habit of starting with a thought and just forgetting where it all began.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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