Originally posted by Teala
Make note of this thread, tag it, because someday it'll be used as a means to say, "we told you so.", just as we have done so many times in the past regarding poorly designed and implemented games.   I am saying it here and now that this land locked game design they are using in TESO will be one of the main things that end up hurting this game.   It will be another Warhammer, Aion, Rift, SWTOR...people do not play poorly designed games.   This game is all ready showing signs of bad game design.   If they insist on locking lands to a specific faction it will not be a very popular game.

I agree locked land is one serious BS but I can't agree with someone considering that Aion and SWTOR are on the same level... I don't see much restrictions in Aion when SWTOR is almost a single player game...

It's off topic and I'm not looking for a debate about it, but it clearly doesn't help making you sound like a fair reference.

Originally posted by Maelwydd

Originally posted by azzamasin

No problem at all with them taking a single player game, extrapilating that out into an MMO form while staying true to the single player game and adding in possibly the best MMO feature thats been done exactly ONE other time with great success. You in turn would rather they take the game and stay true to the TES game but extrapalting that out into MMO form and making it jsut like every other MMO released in the last 8 years.  That is what I call an idiotic and surefire fail.

TES games are open world and non linear. I don't care what PvP systems they use, remove those 2 elements and it isn't a TES game. TES games are sandbox in nature and while some might argue that they should have FFA PVP or full loot they are options. By using DAOC as a framework for the PvP they have removed the fundamentals of what makes a TES game a TES game.

You could go either way with PvP but the open world, non linear design of TES isn't open to negotiation. THAT is where they have failed.

 

You make absolutely no sense.  True TES are best known for their open world, non-linear gameplay and that is exactly what we get with ESO.  The 3 PvE worlds are open world non linear JUST LIKE THE SINGLE PLAYER GAMES.

My argument is you need PvP and to put in any other type of PvP other then RvR it would make the game fail.  Look at all the failures of MMO games that feature instanced Battleground style PvP, or FFA PvP.  None have worked except for WoW and thats because the PvE is what keeps it playerbase around.  But you still need other systems in place to flesh out the game and PvP is a good choice as long as if its done right and seeing as DAoC is the only successdful PvP game (in the west) then it stands to reason to use its system.  Hence the combining of the best of both worlds.

Originally posted by Teala
Make note of this thread, tag it, because someday it'll be used as a means to say, "we told you so.", just as we have done so many times in the past regarding poorly designed and implemented games.   I am saying it here and now that this land locked game design they are using in TESO will be one of the main things that end up hurting this game.   It will be another Warhammer, Aion, Rift, SWTOR...people do not play poorly designed games.   This game is all ready showing signs of bad game design.   If they insist on locking lands to a specific faction it will not be a very popular game.

For you maybe but for potentially millions of others I would wage not and hsitory is on my side!  DAoC and GW2 are both both massive successes and they are the only 3 faction RvR games to ever have been made.  Take away the DAoC style RvR and you turn the game itno another WoW clone.

You guys who want a WoW'ified TES game are an utter embaressment to MMO's and to think you want otherwise is not being true to yourselves.  To remove RvR and open up all the lands for exploration will cause the game to be either a EQ clone with no PvP, or you can offer Open PvP game and turn it into a Darkfall model.  While I wouldnt mind a PvE only TES game world I will settle for soemthing that works too because past games who used the model also did well.  Now to add in PvP which is a must in a MMO you can only copy several styles, and none of them is as popular or as widely successful as the 3 faction RvR system.

I just don't think pvprs will stay for too long only be able to fight in one area. PvP zones take away the element of surprise, the chance of being off guard. In a pvp zone, you know the next fight is right around the corner.

who knows though it could be super huge with towns and stuff just like the pve areas with incredible combat, idk though.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by muffins89

 

 

 

::sigh::  Tamriel is huge, and there are lots of places a person can travel and explore, but we're going to be forbidden to explore the land becuase the developers want to recreate DAoC?   This maybe the one reason I will not even look at this game now.   Stupid.

you'll just need to make more than one character.  think of it as 3 ES games in one.

No.  I just won't play their game.

not every game is for everyone. 

You're right, but of all the games to put this in, this is not the one.   Also, even in WOW, we could travel the world...the whole world.   Even on PvP servers, you couldn't attack players of the other faction outright in their own lands and hurt them.   They had to attack you first before you could do damage back.   Are you telling me that a game from 2003 has better game mechanics than a game being designed for 2013?

Teala your smarter than a lot of the guys on this site. Couldnt have said it better myself. We need more woman gamers like you around.

*hugs from Canada

-Trash

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Teala
Make note of this thread, tag it, because someday it'll be used as a means to say, "we told you so.", just as we have done so many times in the past regarding poorly designed and implemented games.   I am saying it here and now that this land locked game design they are using in TESO will be one of the main things that end up hurting this game.   It will be another Warhammer, Aion, Rift, SWTOR...people do not play poorly designed games.   This game is all ready showing signs of bad game design.   If they insist on locking lands to a specific faction it will not be a very popular game.

You guys who want a WoW'ified TES game are an utter embaressment to MMO's and to think you want otherwise is not being true to yourselves.  To remove RvR and open up all the lands for exploration will cause the game to be either a EQ clone with no PvP, or you can offer Open PvP game and turn it into a Darkfall model.  While I wouldnt mind a PvE only TES game world I will settle for soemthing that works too because past games who used the model also did well.  Now to add in PvP which is a must in a MMO you can only copy several styles, and none of them is as popular or as widely successful as the 3 faction RvR system.

My friend you got her all wrong, She isn't talking about WoWifying this game. She is talking about having it open world. She never said removing RvR, nor was she talking about Open PvP, she said it should allow people to travel anywhere we want in true sandbox fashion, in True TES Fashion.

Cheers

Originally posted by teddyboy420

......

Simple, a DaoC 2 wouldnt sell, so they are tagging another name onto it.

 

DAoC is STILL, to this day, considered some of the best, if not THE best PvP experience in any MMO, and you are trying to say it wouldn't sell? lol.

I'm not arguing about whether this was the right thing to do for this game, b/c personally, I'm not convinced it is. Too much shoe-horning trying to be done to get TES into a certain vision of the designers imo. But that being said, I think the game could still be good. I certainly don't think the 3 faction system, or not being able to go into the home areas of the other races is going to be the reason TES fails, if fail it does.

Not every game has to be a friggin sandbox, in fact, thank the gods they're not, b/c I can't think of a single sandbox MMO (besides EVE, and I think EVE is only so successful b/c of it's "corporate" world setting in space) that has done anything beyond just existing. Look @ Darkfall, when that was in development all the sandbox lovers were hyping it up to be the end-all be-all of PvP MMO's, and it turned out to be total shit. I'd much rather see DAoC 2 then something like Darkfall 2. I also love the argument that anything that isn't sandbox is "antiquated" game-design from "2003" that should be left behind. Games are meant to be fun, and a lot of times, doing whatever the hell you want to do, isn't fun, especially with people being people, i.e. (especially w/ the anonymity of the net) douchebags. I admit some freedom is fun, but there needs to be boundries, and limits, and imo, those boundries and limits are all the more important in a PvP focused MMO. There needs to be goals, and rewards, worth fighting for.

I think the most enjoyable MMO will be a generous helping of sandbox and themepark. I think open class systems will never work in an MMO b/c there will always be a "best" build that always falls into the trinity, and that's what people will build their characters into. So there should be set classes. Also, I think freedom to explore is huge, but I don't think everyone needs to go everywhere either. Or, maybe let people go anywhere they want, but if they go certain places, where they obviously shouldn't be going (other races home-turf for instance) it means almost certain death, like 99.5% certain. Then, there should be set objectives that people can congregate for, both PvE and PvP, and if it can be done something like RvR. People need things to do, and if there's not enough to do, there's no reason to log in, so a generous mix of traditional raiding, mixed in w/ flare-up PvP battles in certain areas, and maybe something like keeps that races of certain allignments can conquer and hold for their faction....the trick is doing all these things, and doing them well.

And with all that said,  to be honest, I don't know that a MMO that stays true to TES's roots would even be possible, let alone any good. TES games have all been extremely single-player focused, yeah they tried very hard to convey a sense of a living-breathing world, but that sense would crumble in seconds if there actually were other people running around with you. People always say things along the lines of how awesome Skyrim or Oblivion would be if other people could adventure with you.....no, it wouldn't be awesome at all, it'd be pretty damn lame b/c those worlds weren't built for multiple heroes.

As has been said, not every game is for everyone. But I really think it's kinda silly to definitvely dennounce a game simply b/c some games have some areas off-limits to your alignment. Go play Minecraft....or Darkfall (lol), if that what you want.

No, it's more likely they new of Camelot Unchained, and knowing it would be bad business to market TWO games based on the same IP at the same time, they dug into their well of famous IP's and decided TES would be the latest fan favorite IP to get neutered.

The simple fact of the matter is not HOW they should have implemented PvP into this game...

It's that they should never have implemented PvP into this game. period. Or at the very least, maybe it a distraction.

TES is all about the stories, the open world, the finding new stuff to explore.  Yes there was conflict in the games, but it was always optional to do, and if you chose to do it WHO YOU FOUGHT FOR was always up to you.

The issue is that instead of taking the beloved idea of TES and putting it into an online world.  They took the just as beloved idea of DAoC and are slapping a TES logo on it.

They knew that a game based of TES would sell better then a game that had no famous IP attached to it.  They chose TES because a lot of players know of it.  But, they never from day one had any intention of actually making The Elder Scrolls Online in spirit, just in name only.

They are really only interested in making DAoC 2.

As a result, TES fans are getting fucked over.

The main reason I see this game flopping is they are severely limiting their playerbase. First, they are alienting all the TES fans. Second, even their PvP is lackluster.  They are focing faction and land locks, yet they limit PvP to on area. The rest of the lands are off limit for bullshit reasons. So all the RvRvR players will probably jump ship when the newest and greatest PvP game comes out, might even be Camelot Unchained that takes them all away.  It invariably happens when a company does this with an IP. Instead of trying to keep their fans happy and trusting that they will tell their friends about the game and draw in more players, they try to completely switch the game around to appeal to a completly different fanbase.  What happens is the same, the shunned fans leave, and the new players, which have little loyalty, get bored and move one.

What is really pathetic is their reason for locked factions and zones. They are promoting faction pride? reallY, so players are so stupid and need to beheld by the hand because we are in capable of developing our own faction pride without the game forcing us into some arbritary system? Really, who the fuck are you to say how a person can develop faction pride?  If you can't write the game in a way, i.e quests and stories, that inhere this pride into players, then you have already failed. FORCING them just pisses them off.

Oh and wait one more.  So they are trying to promote faction pride, yet the number one thing I hear from people defending this system, is that you can just make alts to explore all the lands...

So, what faction are we supposed to be proud of? Just our mains, and our alts are just whatever?

No if you want true faction pride, you give people a reason NOT to just role alts on other factions just to explore the world.

Just a thanks to the one-track-minded rejoinders for attempting to change the debate to one which might be characterised as ‘it’s my PvP way, or the highway...’

Allow me to once more inject reason into the discourse for those who joined the thread halfway through and think these self-serving and extremely limited points of view are representative of the debate.

The playschool logic crowd would have you believe that in meeting the interesting and potentially successful mass PvP ‘DaoC model’ the developers have gone for, that, in line with what they claim to have done, you have to rip out one of the most cherished and successful elements of TES...

... the freedom to explore...

Those with less complex thoughts on the issue seem to think (on both sides of the argument) that to have full exploration you need to remove the planned mass PvP. Those on the other side see the complaints about the faction lockdown as a ‘threat’ to ‘their’ PvP.

Both sides appear to lack the imagination to see that both could have been accommodated with a better model – and there are enough sensible alternative suggestions about this to preclude the need for repetition here...

... go read...

So to the TES fans who can’t accept that the game is moving away from single player and exclusive PvE – embrace the change for a while before you pronounce it a disaster. It’s an MMO and is going to have MMO stuff in it...

... nothing inherently wrong in that...

But foremost – for those blinkered ‘twitch-typers’ who think I am one of the prior crowd – please READ before posting.

I am happy about raids, I missed them in GW2. I am entirely convinced, and have been from the start, that a three way factionalised PvP model (as a standalone) has merit – proven from years of DaoC, a game I commonly hear excellent things about in this very regard.

What I and many others object to is that in order to introduce this exciting element of PvP play into a mainstream ES game, the developers clumsily tore out one of the main reasons a vast army of players play TES – for the sense of freedom to explore.

It was NOT necessary.

BOTH player styles could have been accommodated without taking anything from the other.

Pretending that it couldn’t, or dismissing the concerns of TES players about this issue is typical of a variety of posters in these forums - those who have commented before they have a handle on the entire issue; committed trolls; brainless flamers and the endlessly vocal minority of those who just like to hate.

The game should have had both three way PvP AND free exploration.

It doesn’t, and there are many of us who don’t like it.

If you think that makes me ‘anti-mass-PvP’ after reading what I have posted – none of which criticises the presence of PvP, raiding, or any other typical MMO element; well... then I doubt I could make you understand what that makes you.

I want PvE freedom AND factionalised mass PvP.

If you want to say something useful – tell me WHY I can’t have that?

Originally posted by Caliburn101

 

... go read...

So to the TES fans who can’t accept that the game is moving away from single player and exclusive PvE – embrace the change for a while before you pronounce it a disaster. It’s an MMO and is going to have MMO stuff in it...

BOTH player styles could have been accommodated without taking anything from the other.

Pretending that it couldn’t, or dismissing the concerns of TES players about this issue is typical of a variety of posters in these forums - those who have commented before they have a handle on the entire issue; committed trolls; brainless flamers and the endlessly vocal minority of those who just like to hate.

The game should have had both three way PvP AND free exploration.

It doesn’t, and there are many of us who don’t like it.

If you think that makes me ‘anti-mass-PvP’ after reading what I have posted – none of which criticises the presence of PvP, raiding, or any other typical MMO element; well... then I doubt I could make you understand what that makes you.

I want PvE freedom AND factionalised mass PvP.

If you want to say something useful – tell me WHY I can’t have that?

It is sad that people think that it is moving away from SP ... it is different game, from different company so there will be new bethesda SP TES Game every SP TES fan can play. This will be MMO and MMOS are not for people who don't like MMOs

For second part ... i think you are absolutely right ... there are ways to accomodate both. It will be instanced game and you can make different instances to have different settings. You can make exploration instance, open world PvP instances, easy PvE instances, hard PvE instances and Extreme neckbeard only ultra hard PvE instances ... they even have megaserver so there will allways be big enough population so different instances won't feel empty.

But in the end if i have to choose one ... i am for faction lock and PvE only. But it is sad, that we have to choose at all.

I have to agree that closing off exploration of Areas outside of your factions zones is just plain silly...

I hate to use it as an Example, but even in World of Warcraft, which many believe to work off of the traditional MMO Design, you could explore into enemy zones, but you couldn't engage the enemy in their homelands, you could only do so if the enemy attacked you first. I found that to be quite a fair system, and it didnt make me feel like I was being locked out of content because of my faction choice.

If anything, segregating the populace into faction specific areas breeds more disloyalty than faction pride. If my side is getting whooped in Cyrodiil, I might be inclined to switch factions and explore their Areas, even though my favourite race might belong to another faction. Now, If I find im having a better experience in the other faction I would make that my new home, effectively abandoning my old one.

"Great!" you might think. I've just enriched my play time by finding the faction I like most... but if that choice boils down to whether 1 faction has more detailed areas or better quest lines, it wont be long before everyone is jumping on that bandwagon, with the by-product of that creating a population imbalance in PvP.

I don't see that as being fun for anyone, including "The Winning Side"...

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Just a thanks to the one-track-minded rejoinders for attempting to change the debate to one which might be characterised as ‘it’s my PvP way, or the highway...’

Allow me to once more inject reason into the discourse for those who joined the thread halfway through and think these self-serving and extremely limited points of view are representative of the debate.

The playschool logic crowd would have you believe that in meeting the interesting and potentially successful mass PvP ‘DaoC model’ the developers have gone for, that, in line with what they claim to have done, you have to rip out one of the most cherished and successful elements of TES...

... the freedom to explore...

Those with less complex thoughts on the issue seem to think (on both sides of the argument) that to have full exploration you need to remove the planned mass PvP. Those on the other side see the complaints about the faction lockdown as a ‘threat’ to ‘their’ PvP.

Both sides appear to lack the imagination to see that both could have been accommodated with a better model – and there are enough sensible alternative suggestions about this to preclude the need for repetition here...

... go read...

So to the TES fans who can’t accept that the game is moving away from single player and exclusive PvE – embrace the change for a while before you pronounce it a disaster. It’s an MMO and is going to have MMO stuff in it...

... nothing inherently wrong in that...

But foremost – for those blinkered ‘twitch-typers’ who think I am one of the prior crowd – please READ before posting.

I am happy about raids, I missed them in GW2. I am entirely convinced, and have been from the start, that a three way factionalised PvP model (as a standalone) has merit – proven from years of DaoC, a game I commonly hear excellent things about in this very regard.

What I and many others object to is that in order to introduce this exciting element of PvP play into a mainstream ES game, the developers clumsily tore out one of the main reasons a vast army of players play TES – for the sense of freedom to explore.

It was NOT necessary.

BOTH player styles could have been accommodated without taking anything from the other.

Pretending that it couldn’t, or dismissing the concerns of TES players about this issue is typical of a variety of posters in these forums - those who have commented before they have a handle on the entire issue; committed trolls; brainless flamers and the endlessly vocal minority of those who just like to hate.

The game should have had both three way PvP AND free exploration.

It doesn’t, and there are many of us who don’t like it.

If you think that makes me ‘anti-mass-PvP’ after reading what I have posted – none of which criticises the presence of PvP, raiding, or any other typical MMO element; well... then I doubt I could make you understand what that makes you.

I want PvE freedom AND factionalised mass PvP and a fiew FFA/arena-like contexts (so we can have some e-peen-wars within our own factions).

If you want to say something useful – tell me WHY I can’t have that?

Quoting for truth and since because of my crappy english I couldn't say it better.

Just added a little something in red :p