Azar
They have alliance ranks which sound like renown ranks from daoc.

They also have continuing to skill up weapons and learn new abilities after level cap (member you equip a subset from a pool)

Longevity has become a niche.  

Only a small number of people play the same MMO for years while everyone else jumps around when a new one is released.  It's just the way it is now.

In order to go back to playing the same MMO for 5-8 years, they would need to stop developing more options.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Aker
Yes I find it very amusing when people go "dont copy that themepark daoc", then bang on about "copy that sandbox EQ" instead.

Both are open world themeparks (as opposed to modern day glorified lobby games like swtor). In pve they are nigh identical, except daoc has more inclusive less elitist raiding. The other main difference is daoc equivelent of AA comes from pvp not pve.

In many ways daoc is the most "sandboxy" themepark of the lot, with the zoned (rather than instanced) housing, the lack of any instances whatsoever (until catacombs), the emergent behaviour you get from rvr and the importance of its crafting.

Themepark / sandbox is a sliding scale, not a binary one or the other. If you take swtor as the ultimate in themepark and eve or uo as the ultimate in sandbox, daoc would fit somewhere between EQ and a hybrid game like swg or ac1.

I dont agree. Sandbox vs ThemePark is an either or. You can have ThemeParks inside a sandbox but the game would still be a sandbox because of its inherent open world and player generated content.

ThemeParks on the other hand cannot have sandboxes in them because they are linear by nature. Just like you go from ride to ride in a a real theme park, in ThemePark MMOs you go from quest hub and/or level bracketted zone to other. It is not possible to have a sandbox inside a ThemePark because the framework cannot support it.

DAoC was a ThemePark as it was zoned with clear level brackets and you went from one bracket to the other in a linear fashion. More over it was heavily class and level based which was strongly tied to the level bracketted zone, making it virtually impossible to effectively advance your character in a higher level bracket zone.

Finally its PvP was highly controlled and structured which against goes against the open-world sandbox PvP where the players drive it forward. You even had NPC guards patrolling the RvR zones and keeps hardplaced by the devs.

Just because DAoC did not have some of the features of modern ThemeParks does not make it not a ThemePark. It was one of the first one's as the world was highly dev. controlled with little impact you had as a player, except flipping keeps back and forth which coincidently is exaclty what you do in modern ThemePark PvP as well.

I never said daoc wasn't a themepark.

I said it had the most sandbox features of any themepark to date.

Which it did.
Non instanced housing.
No instancing at all until very late in its life.
No wtfpwnepix style gearing.
Very important crafting.
And say what you like about rvr, but its decidedly less themeparky than 10 minute matches of capture the flag in an instance.

Everquest is more themeparky than daoc too. Gear gated content, relative unimportance of crafting etc..

I am hoping something hold me over until Archeage or EQNext...I like depth in a MMO, and unfortunatley, the newer ones have not had much of it imo.

 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I never said daoc wasn't a themepark.

I said it had the most sandbox features of any themepark to date.

Which it did.
Non instanced housing.
No instancing at all until very late in its life.
No wtfpwnepix style gearing.
Very important crafting.
And say what you like about rvr, but its decidedly less themeparky than 10 minute matches of capture the flag in an instance.

Ok I missunderstood you then because I played DAoC for 6 months and in no way was it a sandbox MMO. It is not as dumbed down and casual as the current ThemePark crop but that is unfourtunately what is happening in the entire gaming industry.

However I dont think having non instanced housing, or anything else on your list, qualifies as sandbox features. Except crafting, which is an important aspect in sandbox games.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I never said daoc wasn't a themepark.

I said it had the most sandbox features of any themepark to date.

Which it did.
Non instanced housing.
No instancing at all until very late in its life.
No wtfpwnepix style gearing.
Very important crafting.
And say what you like about rvr, but its decidedly less themeparky than 10 minute matches of capture the flag in an instance.

Ok I missunderstood you then because I played DAoC for 6 months and in no way was it a sandbox MMO. It is not as dumbed down and casual as the current ThemePark crop but that is unfourtunately what is happening in the entire gaming industry.

However I dont think having non instanced housing, or anything else on your list, qualifies as sandbox features. Except crafting, which is an important aspect in sandbox games.

i dont have this sandbox vs themepark thing as my two favourite mmos are eve and daoc.  I do hate a lot of modern thempark design though, especially where engame is just sitting in cities queing to go do instances of pve or pvp.

Longevity is only understood after a game is fully played. Since no one here has done that this discussion is moot.

no, i don't think any mmo will have longevity until one comes out that is far and away better than everything else and more addictive than everything else.

i just don't see it.

Originally posted by baphamet

no, i don't think any mmo will have longevity until one comes out that is far and away better than everything else and more addictive than everything else.

i just don't see it.

In addition to that we will never have longevity while we have people postng threads on forums with titles like:

is running instances the most efficient way to lvl up my healer?

If people want to race through to the end how can there be longevity?

Originally posted by Ozivois
Longevity is only understood after a game is fully played. Since no one here has done that this discussion is moot.

You are right.

Originally posted by azarhal

Originally posted by coretex666

I kind of regret that when devs decide to use character levels in their game, they usually make the max level easily attainable.

I remember back in Lineage II early chronicles, it took months or maybe even years for casual gamer to reach max level. It has always been a nice "passive reward". You can be engaged in various activities and you are still getting that "passive reward" in form of experience. The same thing worked in Diablo II (I know it is not an MMORPG, but just for illustration...) where you were grinding gear, but even if you did not get anything that day, you knew you at least made some percentage of your next level.

Nowadays, most games just let you hit max level in a week and then let you progress in terms of gear, so that they become gear treadmill like WoW for example. Or there are games that take any kind of after level cap progression out of equation, like GW. I dont even consider these games MMORPGs anymore.

Something tells me that in ESO, max level will also be quite easily reached as they mentioned that "after hitting max level, the game really opens up". I am quite curious how will the after level cap progression be like because for me, it is the make it or break it aspect of the game.

Character progression is very important for me in a MMORPG. If they just let us hit max level and then grind dungs for gear and pvp in a predetermined area, I would be quite disappointed. This game does have the potential to be special. It all depends on the execution. On the other hand, there may be many people who would enjoy what I just described as negative. Considering how popular a game like GW can be...

If you are talking about GW1, character progression continued well pass max level. You received skill points required to buy skills each "new level" after 20 you just did not go to 21. You had to do the content to unlock skills, the best one dropping from champion boss. Or you could buy them if you have the money and skill point available. You also received character points through some of the main story quests.  Nightfalls and Eye of the North added another form of skill improvement through the titles: improving faction specific skills through completing content for them.  Also GW1 is not a MMO. GW2 is totally different though.

As for ESO, the dev also said that max level  (50) was only 1/3 of the character progression. No explanation beyond that.

I actually meant GW 2, but it does not matter as it is not the main point of the post :).

I am curious about the other two thirds of the character progression then. However, so far I have read that after hitting max level, you are allowed to learn other skills (e.g. different weapon skills, etc) which is a progression in a way, but it no longer makes your character stronger / better. Maybe more versatile if something. To me, this kind of after cap progression seems to be more like making an alt than continue in progression of your character.

I mean when I hit max level and have my sword skill maxed, learning axe skills in addition to that is not the same as learning additional sword skills.

Maybe there will be possibility to further improve your "main" skills too, but I have not read such information yet.

Originally posted by Tibbz

Originally posted by Tayah

I'd like it if TES could keep me playing, but from everything I've been reading. It's looking more and more like it won't.

Phasing and instancing, the pve, no housing.....the only thing I can see for me is the RvR zone, and that even looks kinda iffy with the one mega server with instances for it. I suppose we have to wait and see.

At worse, it's like the past few years, I buy the game, play it through the 30 days and don't subscribe, or find out it's a crappy buy to play game with cash shop and uninstall if after I feel like I've beat it with one character. One thing that will kill it for me fast though is a gear grind. I did that in WoW for years, just won't do it again. Just have to wait and see.

 

Hmmm I may just be going off into a back in my day rant but nevertheless a gear grind, so to speak, is not a bad thing.  What I think made the “MMO” a very interactive entity was the down time and group grind.  I remember sitting around KC in old EQ1 camping a corer by the stables and pulling mobs into kill with our Monk.  50% of it was whacking away at the mob and grumping at the rouge to stop stealing agro because the clerics mana is low.  The other 50% you sit “medding” and just chit chatting with your group mates…. You then get the message from the monk “NAMED” inc and pray for that ultra rare drop.  The game was fun because you had community friend. LOL don’t even get me started on the Epic Weapons or EQ2’s original Prismatics etc.  . Now most MMOs are just chat boxes and people get annoyed if they have to group up.  

 

I am probably a minority for wanting some of that back 

 

Yea you are.  For the life of me I fail to understand how that could be fun.

 

I remember that sort of EQ style of gameplay from my early days of DAoC and it was monotonous compared to Asheron's Call where I could pull 20 mobs 10 levels higher then me and if I played smart I could come out alive....all while solo!  Now that was fun.  Guess it jsut shows that people like different things.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Tibbz

Originally posted by Tayah

I'd like it if TES could keep me playing, but from everything I've been reading. It's looking more and more like it won't.

Phasing and instancing, the pve, no housing.....the only thing I can see for me is the RvR zone, and that even looks kinda iffy with the one mega server with instances for it. I suppose we have to wait and see.

At worse, it's like the past few years, I buy the game, play it through the 30 days and don't subscribe, or find out it's a crappy buy to play game with cash shop and uninstall if after I feel like I've beat it with one character. One thing that will kill it for me fast though is a gear grind. I did that in WoW for years, just won't do it again. Just have to wait and see.

 

Hmmm I may just be going off into a back in my day rant but nevertheless a gear grind, so to speak, is not a bad thing.  What I think made the “MMO” a very interactive entity was the down time and group grind.  I remember sitting around KC in old EQ1 camping a corer by the stables and pulling mobs into kill with our Monk.  50% of it was whacking away at the mob and grumping at the rouge to stop stealing agro because the clerics mana is low.  The other 50% you sit “medding” and just chit chatting with your group mates…. You then get the message from the monk “NAMED” inc and pray for that ultra rare drop.  The game was fun because you had community friend. LOL don’t even get me started on the Epic Weapons or EQ2’s original Prismatics etc.  . Now most MMOs are just chat boxes and people get annoyed if they have to group up.  

 

I am probably a minority for wanting some of that back 

 

Yea you are.  For the life of me I fail to understand how that could be fun.

 

I remember that sort of EQ style of gameplay from my early days of DAoC and it was monotonous compared to Asheron's Call where I could pull 20 mobs 10 levels higher then me and if I played smart I could come out alive....all while solo!  Now that was fun.  Guess it jsut shows that people like different things.

I think it was 90% due to the fact of having that time to chat with yoru group/guild/ooc.  That or it was my first MMO... each person always tends to compare the first to everything lol

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by Tibbz

Originally posted by Tayah

I'd like it if TES could keep me playing, but from everything I've been reading. It's looking more and more like it won't.

Phasing and instancing, the pve, no housing.....the only thing I can see for me is the RvR zone, and that even looks kinda iffy with the one mega server with instances for it. I suppose we have to wait and see.

At worse, it's like the past few years, I buy the game, play it through the 30 days and don't subscribe, or find out it's a crappy buy to play game with cash shop and uninstall if after I feel like I've beat it with one character. One thing that will kill it for me fast though is a gear grind. I did that in WoW for years, just won't do it again. Just have to wait and see.

 

Hmmm I may just be going off into a back in my day rant but nevertheless a gear grind, so to speak, is not a bad thing.  What I think made the “MMO” a very interactive entity was the down time and group grind.  I remember sitting around KC in old EQ1 camping a corer by the stables and pulling mobs into kill with our Monk.  50% of it was whacking away at the mob and grumping at the rouge to stop stealing agro because the clerics mana is low.  The other 50% you sit “medding” and just chit chatting with your group mates…. You then get the message from the monk “NAMED” inc and pray for that ultra rare drop.  The game was fun because you had community friend. LOL don’t even get me started on the Epic Weapons or EQ2’s original Prismatics etc.  . Now most MMOs are just chat boxes and people get annoyed if they have to group up.  

 

I am probably a minority for wanting some of that back 

 

Yea you are.  For the life of me I fail to understand how that could be fun.

 

I remember that sort of EQ style of gameplay from my early days of DAoC and it was monotonous compared to Asheron's Call where I could pull 20 mobs 10 levels higher then me and if I played smart I could come out alive....all while solo!  Now that was fun.  Guess it jsut shows that people like different things.

Rose colored glasses effect again...

Asheron's Call was so rudimentary and unbalanced that you had some mobs (golems)  that were only susceptible to blunt damage and classes (swordsmen)  running around that could not do blunt damage...well, until they "fixed" it amd added blunt swords lol. Then there were those who could use their life magic drain ability through walls to solo things no one else could...or use one of the multitude of terrain bugs to keep the mobs where you could hit them but they couldn't touch you...and trains...I miss being trained by someone running through a field of mobs and bringing them all to you...and item storage where you picked a safe spot, dropped all your stuff on the ground, logged out and hoped that the server let you log your mule in before someone came by and found your stash...

Ah yes... the golden days of MMOs

Look: we all have good memories of MMOs we once played--especially our first ones. But we moved on for a reason. Now we're here in this forum because whatever else we happen to be playing, like always, we're all interested and thinking about playing the next shiny MMO.

And this new golden child borrows heavily from what preceded it--just like all other MMOs. Such is the evolution of the genre...

Will it have longevity? By WOW standards, I seriouslty doubt it. I don't think that phenomenom is likely to be duplicated again. The real question is will it be fun for the 3-month to 1 year average longevity of the good ones or will it be one month and out like the bad ones? idk but I'm willing to bet on the first option.