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Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » For a series known for its amazing PvE - why so focused on PvP for ESO?

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157 posts found
  Inktomi

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 3/25/09
Posts: 665

Give me sparkly, twinkly...

2/16/13 3:32:23 PM#41
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Inktomi
Originally posted by Distopia
 

Two things, first it isn't bethesda making this game they make SP games, and by todd Howards own words that's what they'll stick to, second they weren't bought out by EA.

Zenimax (Media) owns Bethesda, Arkane, Id and Zenimax Studios. The TES IP is all owned under one roof. So the powers that be at the top of Zenimax will probably not want their online version of the game released* without the same level of quality that the SP games were made.

I certainly would hope so, my point was about the lack of similarities between the TOR situation and this one. To be specific i do not think a failure here would come back to haunt the TES franchise as a whole, i think that's half the reason they've created a studio as they have, not to mention why Beth-soft themselves did not create an MMO.

We are talking about different companies and different IP's. Matt Firor runs ZO Studios and he was an integral part in* the creation of Dark Age of Camelot when he was with Mythic Entertainment. We know how the MMOG community feels about DAoC. One of the many reasons why I am personally backing TESO.

  darkhalf357x

Elite Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1124

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

2/16/13 3:33:23 PM#42

Because this game really has no relation to the console titles other than IP/lore.   You are talking about a MMORPG where hundreds of thousands of people will play at the same time ... and you dont want to (focus) on them fighting?   I dont see them ignoring that.

You have no option to fight another person in stand-alone version so the concept of PvP was pointless.

 

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

2/16/13 3:47:12 PM#43
Originally posted by General_Dru-Zod
Originally posted by Karteli

PVP is cheap endgame content, whereas PVE needs to be constantly added to.

 

PVE generally has a hate following as well by casuals who want everything the quality guilds have, yet without working towards them in a multiplayer environment.  WoW tried to make the casuals like their game by giving them top level epics via soloable content (crafting, dailies, rep grinds)... then the guilds who overcame those impossible achievements were upset.  "Hardcore" players quit and WoW was left a shamble of what it used to be, but still a haven for casuals. [hence why you see all those posts about WoW being great during Vanilla and Burning Crusade].

 

PVP can be a mixed bag if the gear is obtained through repetition instead of skill.  Think resilience, expertise, or any other PVP mechanic to differentiate PVP gear qualities.

 

Since TESO will be a casual players themepark game, the least offensive situation would be to eliminate PVE and make the game about PVP skill.  PVE exists to get TES fans to buy the game, but not to stay.

 

My take on it anyways - I could be wrong, but seems like that is how Zenimax derived their game.

PvP doesnt discriminate... If you know the insides and out of the charater your playing an your foe just as equally, knowing the habits of foe and timing.. you can defeat your opponent.

However PvE, going against a controlled AI knowing the insides and outs of the Bosses abilities you can win BUT you still have to deal with the politics and rules set up by the guild that is running the raid... thus creating situations where one could win the roll for an item but still NOT gain said item.

Having that chance to win an item is part of the thrill though.  DKP came about because of such scenarios, but it was the gamers who derived the system, and the players that accepted it.  Players who participated more, won more.  That is a sustainable mechanic, and one created by players too.

 

Casuals didn't like DKP though, because they can't / won't play often enough to get integrated into a guild.  But they still want to be the hero in an MMORPG.  /sigh

 

PVP offers instant gratification, which (sadly to me) satisfies their gaming needs, which are more short term than long term.  Every PVP game has suffered, unless your name is League of Legends.  But an MMORPG that depends on progression can't exactly get LoL players...

 

MMORPG's are pretty much founded on "build-me-up" characters.  Doesn't mesh well with PVP.

 

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

2/16/13 3:55:04 PM#44
ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. You may as well forget ESO even has the Elder Scrolls title, if you don't you're only setting yourself up for disappointing. It's developed by a separate studio, that has not made an Elder Scrolls game, headed by someone that has never made an Elder Scrolls game (you'll find this theme a lot). Approach it like an entirely new game, because that's exactly what it is. Make no mistake, this is an MMO that had already been developed on paper, with the Elder Scrolls name tacked on to get the fans interested. That's going to be their downfall, the game sounds good on its own but no matter how many times they tell people not to, fans are going to approach this like an MMO version of Skyrim, and it couldn't be further from that.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  SirBalin

Warmonger

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 1084

2/16/13 3:56:01 PM#45
Love seeing the care and bears qq about things like this.  They have made tons of pve games, now they want to make  ONE pvp game and you guys are upset?  Really?  They have made solo games for the pvers that are great...whats wrong with trying something new.  Great idea imo.

Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

2/16/13 4:04:18 PM#46
Originally posted by Karteli

PVP is cheap endgame content, whereas PVE needs to be constantly added to.

 

PVE generally has a hate following as well by casuals who want everything the quality guilds have, yet without working towards them in a multiplayer environment.  WoW tried to make the casuals like their game by giving them top level epics via soloable content (crafting, dailies, rep grinds)... then the guilds who overcame those impossible achievements were upset.  "Hardcore" players quit and WoW was left a shamble of what it used to be, but still a haven for casuals. [hence why you see all those posts about WoW being great during Vanilla and Burning Crusade].

 

PVP can be a mixed bag if the gear is obtained through repetition instead of skill.  Think resilience, expertise, or any other PVP mechanic to differentiate PVP gear qualities.

 

Since TESO will be a casual players themepark game, the least offensive situation would be to eliminate PVE and make the game about PVP skill.  PVE exists to get TES fans to buy the game, but not to stay.

 

My take on it anyways - I could be wrong, but seems like that is how Zenimax derived their game.

That haven of casuals outnumbers all of the other AAA MMOs combined.  No PvP focused MMO has ever come close to the numbers exhibited by EverQuest or World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XI.  Some of the posters in this topic have it backwards.  MMORPGs were meant to be primarily PvE.  We have ample proof that games do very well indeed without PvP.  I have no interest in this game, even before all of this PvP tripe.  The combat mechanics alone turned me away.  I'm very much looking forward to the strictly PvE game called EverQuest Next.  It won't surprise me in the least if it eclipses all of the PvP centric games out there.

  Laromuss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 331

2/16/13 4:06:22 PM#47
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. You may as well forget ESO even has the Elder Scrolls title, if you don't you're only setting yourself up for disappointing. It's developed by a separate studio, that has not made an Elder Scrolls game, headed by someone that has never made an Elder Scrolls game (you'll find this theme a lot). Approach it like an entirely new game, because that's exactly what it is. Make no mistake, this is an MMO that had already been developed on paper, with the Elder Scrolls name tacked on to get the fans interested. That's going to be their downfall, the game sounds good on its own but no matter how many times they tell people not to, fans are going to approach this like an MMO version of Skyrim, and it couldn't be further from that.

Please plese stop spreading misinformation, and go watch the podcast, videos and read their informations again.  All you have done is thrown out a ton of opinion and not enough facts.   To the point I thought you were joking cause I've been following this game from the beginning, done comparisons, of the core game mechanics, gameplay, combat, etc and they all indicate what an Elder scrolls game would be if it was online which is ESO.  

 

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1954

2/16/13 4:08:15 PM#48
Originally posted by Laross
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. You may as well forget ESO even has the Elder Scrolls title, if you don't you're only setting yourself up for disappointing. It's developed by a separate studio, that has not made an Elder Scrolls game, headed by someone that has never made an Elder Scrolls game (you'll find this theme a lot). Approach it like an entirely new game, because that's exactly what it is. Make no mistake, this is an MMO that had already been developed on paper, with the Elder Scrolls name tacked on to get the fans interested. That's going to be their downfall, the game sounds good on its own but no matter how many times they tell people not to, fans are going to approach this like an MMO version of Skyrim, and it couldn't be further from that.

Please plese stop spreading misinformation, and go watch the podcast, videos and read their informations again.  All you have done is thrown out a ton of opinion and not enough facts.   To the point I thought you were joking cause I've been following this game from the beginning, done comparisons, of the core game mechanics, gameplay, combat, etc and they all indicate what an Elder scrolls game would be if it was online which is ESO.  

 

Agreed and that's why the OP has a right to be upset.  The online version will be very much like the single player games, only bastardized into a PvP centric piece of crap.

  bobm111

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 156

2/16/13 4:16:18 PM#49

lets at least be honest. the rvr heros and wannabe pvpers are trying to hi-jack a game which has its roots in morrowind and its follow ups. none were pvp.... but pve and lore rich.

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

Otherwise you will be destroying a great game with a great history and lore.

Make this a mmorpg

based on its roots and history with a entire world to explore and a myriad of races and opportunities

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 920

2/16/13 4:16:49 PM#50
Originally posted by Crazyhorsek
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Eletheryl

You have a lot of good PvE MMOs out there, The PvP in the MMO world is like the final frontier to conquer and the PvP population is just insanelly huge, the game who reach that ¨PvP frontier¨   will have them all. 

This is RvR, which is a subsection of PvP.  They don't have world PvP or PvP matches which would be a large chunk of that 'insanly huge" PvP population.

Subsection? Are you crazy? First realms go to war, then you are sent to fight that war.

First RvR, then PvP. RvR = mass people vs mass people, then PvP - player vs player

Oh and those laughable "arena" matches you speak of... that shouldnt even take place, unless they make a Colosseum somewhere and it should not be "queued" you should shit down and await your turn. We actually used to do this in DAoC... and it was all player-organized and everybody respected it... members from all three realms would sit in a pre-determinded region in the frontiers and wait their turn while others were having their fight inside the "ring". Or you could just go there and watch... but that takes a bit more mature audience to pull this off, since, again, it was all player organized.

Anyway RvR is at the top of the "pvp hierarchy" because its not about you, but about your faction as a whole. Stop thinking about yourself or what you can get from it - think bigger...

“Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”

World PvP was first in MMOs, then came DAoC RvR.  There are different kinds of PvP just like there are different types of PvE.  They are only focusing on RvR combat.  There is no PvP hierarchy.

  Laromuss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 331

2/16/13 4:21:23 PM#51
Originally posted by bobm111

lets at least be honest. the rvr heros and wannabe pvpers are trying to hi-jack a game which has its roots in morrowind and its follow ups. none were pvp.... but pve and lore rich.

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

Otherwise you will be destroying a great game with a great history and lore.

Make this a mmorpg

based on its roots and history with a entire world to explore and a myriad of races and opportunities

One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer.  

I may have interpreted your statement differently but just in case ill leave it.  If its wrong I apologize ahead of time.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 920

2/16/13 4:33:02 PM#52
Originally posted by bobm111

lets at least be honest. the rvr heros and wannabe pvpers are trying to hi-jack a game which has its roots in morrowind and its follow ups. none were pvp.... but pve and lore rich.

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

Otherwise you will be destroying a great game with a great history and lore.

Make this a mmorpg

based on its roots and history with a entire world to explore and a myriad of races and opportunities

I could see that, over at the Bethesda forums there are a bunch of white knights defending ESO with 2012 join dates.  Suddenly everyone is long time TES fan and wants them to recreate DAoC... I just don't buy it.

Mark Jacobs is already making DAoC2 which makes ESO look even more like a cheap knock-off.  Matt gets his first big break as a game director and he instantly tries to create his version of DAoC at no consideration to the TES franchise.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 920

2/16/13 4:37:02 PM#53
Originally posted by Laross
Originally posted by bobm111

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

  ChakaCan

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/13
Posts: 22

2/16/13 4:39:04 PM#54

I don't mind having a PvP area in this game, BUT the PvE in the Elder's scrolls game was amazing!  I would literally get jumped by creatures.  I haven't had npcs do that to me since Everquest. 

So I hope this MMO isn't like WOW, Tera, and others where creatures just stand around like bowling pins to knock down.

I believe that's why they do PVP, so they don't have to actually do awesome AI for npcs.

  bobm111

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 156

2/16/13 4:45:30 PM#55
Originally posted by Majix

I don't mind having a PvP area in this game, BUT the PvE in the Elder's scrolls game was amazing!  I would literally get jumped by creatures.  I haven't had npcs do that to me since Everquest. 

So I hope this MMO isn't like WOW, Tera, and others where creatures just stand around like bowling pins to knock down.

I believe that's why they do PVP, so they don't have to actually do awesome AI for npcs.

Nor do i have anything against pvp. Im sure that they could make both a pve, pvp,and rp server so that people can choose.

But please dont devide up the world so people have to make 3 chars to experience the entire world .

  Laromuss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 331

2/16/13 4:48:12 PM#56
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Laross
Originally posted by bobm111

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/

look for the section in the first part 

Zenimax Media is the parent company which owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Game Studios. The two sibling studios have a close working relationship which has allowed ZOS to collaborate effectively with Bethesda in order to maintain internal consistency in lore, geography, and art design. Todd Howard is personally involved to sign off on major decisions regarding the direction of the IP.(GI1),(GI2)

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3065

2/16/13 4:53:38 PM#57
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. You may as well forget ESO even has the Elder Scrolls title, if you don't you're only setting yourself up for disappointing. It's developed by a separate studio, that has not made an Elder Scrolls game, headed by someone that has never made an Elder Scrolls game (you'll find this theme a lot). Approach it like an entirely new game, because that's exactly what it is. Make no mistake, this is an MMO that had already been developed on paper, with the Elder Scrolls name tacked on to get the fans interested. That's going to be their downfall, the game sounds good on its own but no matter how many times they tell people not to, fans are going to approach this like an MMO version of Skyrim, and it couldn't be further from that.

Absolutely.

 

Oblivion sold 3.5 million copies in the 5 years after it was released. Skyrim sold 3.5 million copies in the first week after release. It's a strong IP.

Even though neither of those games featured PvP in any way. When I think of TES games, PvP is not the first thought that comes to mind. Far from it.

There's a lot of potential for consumer backlash here if the millions of fans don't like the RvR focus and the design decisions that are made to support it.

 

It's a bit like making a MMORPG called "Call of Duty Online", which has a heavy focus on PVE, specially at endgame... 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/16/13 4:54:37 PM#58
Originally posted by Margulis
 Why? This series was built on PvE, and any fan of the series would be a big fan of PvE also or they wouldnt even have even enjoyed the series.  So why would that not be the main focus?  

Because they arent so much making an Elder Scrolls game as they are making a sequal to DaoC.

If The Elder Scrolls was their focus, it would be completely open world, wouldnt force factions, wouldnt limit races to factions, wouldnt close off  areas to opposing factions and sure as hell wouldnt be allowing us to take over the PvP areas and elect our own emporers...

All hail Legolazz shootnurface of Lolz guild.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  bobm111

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 156

2/16/13 4:55:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Laross
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Laross
Originally posted by bobm111

And now a studio is making a game which has nothing to do with elder scrolls real story so please change it to doac 2 or something.

One correction in your statment, the studio which is working on the game is under one company which owns both Bethesda and zenimax.  Both companies are working closely together to create a game that has Lore that is very specific to the Elders scrolls world, Bethesda has its hand in everything except for High level decisions which is done my Zenimax's lead designer/Pvp designer. 

Do you have a link for that?  They said they 'worked' with Bethesda's Todd Howard for advice but they do not work closely with Bethesda.  They don't even clairify that Todd even approves of their direction.  The company has rights to the IP and chances are the Lore guys that work on TES is working on TES 6 whereas Zenimax hired writers to convert the lore to fit their DAoC RvR system.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/

Appears you are right mate the parent company explicitly makes it clear they want a doac game with morrowwind lore. There game there choice but i wont play it as im not interested in a doac clone in morrowwind lore but interested in a mmorpg which is based on morrowwind lore. a single world without any restrictions to adventure in. But gl but many people will not play it because it is a doac clone

look for the section in the first part 

Zenimax Media is the parent company which owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Game Studios. The two sibling studios have a close working relationship which has allowed ZOS to collaborate effectively with Bethesda in order to maintain internal consistency in lore, geography, and art design. Todd Howard is personally involved to sign off on major decisions regarding the direction of the IP.(GI1),(GI2)

 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

2/16/13 4:59:07 PM#60
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
ESO has nothing to do with Elder Scrolls besides the lore. 

And not even that.

The game is supposed to be taking place during 2E, yet amazingly enough even though the lore states that not even after the fall of the last protector of the empire did any other faction invade imperial lands until SEPTIM himself came alone...in this game, not only will all sides invade imperial lands, we will be able to elect our own emperor...

worse yet, of the 3 factions only ONE of them was ever any real threat to the imperials...yet all 3 will be made equal.

So no, they are not even sticking to the lore, they are bastardizing it as much as everything else about the series. Beautiful elves?!? WTF.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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