I suppose it depends on what type of progression you are talking about.  If it's a gear grind for PvP specific stats then no, that's quite possibly the worst thing to happen to MMO's.  PvP is about the players and their skill, not a player trying to overcome someone elses gear.

Originally posted by Quesa
I suppose it depends on what type of progression you are talking about.  If it's a gear grind for PvP specific stats then no, that's quite possibly the worst thing to happen to MMO's.  PvP is about the players and their skill, not a player trying to overcome someone elses gear.

Of course I don't want a gear grind. I want something similar to this: http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/realm-abilities

i agree with this above but want to add to also that DAOC i felt did it right pre TOA where you would just have a set of player crafted 100% quality gear and your realm abilities is what gave you the edge instead of gear grinding for months. Though it was still a grind it at least made your toon much different than the next guy of your class and it was fun. People would hate my reaver with a passion on tower defense games because I would thorn weed field them then hit the pbaoe lifetap (UQToS) and sometimes if they werent paying attention drop the entire 8 man . This was a lot of fun to me but any smart player seeing a reaver would just avoid getting bunched up in a snare with damage.

Ive always been a avid defender of added pvp abilites you earn for the more you pvp because it opens up new gameplay options to you . I HATE gear grinds with a passion but sometimes they are honestly needed , just look at that trainwreck of a pvp system in both wow and rift to see. Imagine if there was no pvp gear and you just had raiders abile to get the best gear. They would walk into a pvp battleground or skirmish and demolish everyone that isnt a raider and that would be unfair to people who just want to pvp and not raid or do dungeon heroics etc.

I think TESO will have pvp personally though no info is available yet about it. But you have to think whats going to keep raiders at bay in pvp zones when they get bored of raiding ? Guild Wars 2 did that part of the game right because all gear could be earned in both pvp and end game pve. I just hope they do the same but they are already talking about raids being end game in TESO.

Surprisingly, I see myself agreeing with the OP 

With exception of long term CC, like others said, if it is like the common CC it would suck, if its like WAR then it could work marvelously, plus they could add a immune effect after someone takes a CC to stop abusing like in GW2

Originally posted by jtcgs

You are arguing open world PvP based on a game that did not have open world PvP...

DaoC was NOT open world. Asherons Call and Ultima Online was OPEN WORLD PvP.

It means you can PvP EVERYWHERE because you can go EVERYWHERE. And no, DaoC was not the best PvP game, I dont know of a single person that played on Darktide in Asherons Call that would say DaoC limited PvPing zones was the best, if anything the game handicapped PvPing by making it grouped based like PvE instances. The very idea of player skill went away and it became a group zerg fest where the side with the most people and best gear wins.

Long gone are the days of two people fighting for 20-30 minutes because they are SKILLED...we are left with 10 second long fights and gank fests.

Who knows, maybe Black Desert will do "DaoC" style zerg PvP the "right way"...outside the closed confines it was placed into and dumped into an actual OPEN WORLD...either way, you wont get it in TESO, they already anounced that the factions will be just like in DaoC, closed to other faction players, and PvP will have its set "zones".

Amen.  I missed out on DaoC, although I hear tales that in it's prime it was an awesome game. I tried Asheron's Call when it was released, but sadly never liked it.

I started Playing Ultima Online in November 1997, and was seriously hooked. You were afraid to go out with your good gear, you had reasons for grouping with friends.  The PvP was spectacular.  Large groups of reds dominating the dungeons, until the blues could round up enough to go face them. Huge dungeon fights, avoid monsters and fighting through all levels, with some fights lasting over an hour.  That was good pvp.  Sadly I haven't seen much PvP like that since.  Darkfall tried, but I think it missed the mark.  I doubt we will ever see a game like UO ever again.

Cronius
Sage said on that last video you can't get the best gear purely by pve. To have the best you need a combination of pvp,pve AND crafting. I'm hoping you just need 2 of the 3 though, don't want to put up with all the drama and politics you get with progression end game pve.

Apvp (area pvp) is not the same as Wpvp. We've seen this with swtor, tsw, and gw2. It just doesn't scrathc the itch of the unexpected.  

 

I can't wait to check out the combat systems and the itemization, but this stuff is going to have to amazing, not just good in order for TESO's Apvp to have any staying power.

Overall I disagree with the OPs premise and conclusions.  DAoC might be popular here, but open world factionless pvp games were and currently are a lot more popular.  Lineage and maybe UO both I would consider more popular than daoc.

I agree with seeing names because it helps add to the competition.  I also think adding incentives for keep holding rather than flipping are good.

I disagree with long cc and most of the other assumptions especially the fps philosophy of focusing on and mainly rewarding kill counts only.  In contrived faction-oriented pvp like daoc zerg is the norm especially when it's not open world.

It just seems futile to try and add meaning to such rigidly defined themepark style pvp.  A wading pool only gets so deep and so does this sort of pvp.

Originally posted by bcbully

Apvp (area pvp) is not the same as Wpvp. We've seen this with swtor, tsw, and gw2. It just doesn't scrathc the itch of the unexpected.  

I can't wait to check out the combat systems and the itemization, but this stuff is going to have to amazing, not just good in order for TESO's Apvp to have any staying power.

Amazingly enough, for once I agree with you.

Originally posted by Quesa
I suppose it depends on what type of progression you are talking about.  If it's a gear grind for PvP specific stats then no, that's quite possibly the worst thing to happen to MMO's.  PvP is about the players and their skill, not a player trying to overcome someone elses gear.

Well, to a point. Otherwise there is no reason to have any gear whatsoever. Though my preference would be to have less of a gap between good gear and incredible gear.

Still, if someone is wearing good armor then that armor should protect. The issue comes from someone just wearing good gear and then standing there invulnerable. That should never happen. Heck, no player should ever be invulnerable, even from level 1 players. Or several of them in any case.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Quesa
I suppose it depends on what type of progression you are talking about.  If it's a gear grind for PvP specific stats then no, that's quite possibly the worst thing to happen to MMO's.  PvP is about the players and their skill, not a player trying to overcome someone elses gear.

Well, to a point. Otherwise there is no reason to have any gear whatsoever. Though my preference would be to have less of a gap between good gear and incredible gear.

Still, if someone is wearing good armor then that armor should protect. The issue comes from someone just wearing good gear and then standing there invulnerable. That should never happen. Heck, no player should ever be invulnerable, even from level 1 players. Or several of them in any case.

To each their own. 

The argument for PvP gear through a grind is always proped up on the fact that they want something to go for.  When you ask these people if they would accept cosmetic gifts through PvP, many of them say "no".  That's where the argument breaks down.  PvP should be just that, Player vs. Player.  If you have a gear grind whih we saw in the beginnings of games like WoW and Rift, you are really just participating in PvGear until you equalize it through the grind.

The proposal from GW2, when it first started, was that everyone would have the equalized stats for their class (at least that's what I remembered) and that's the proper way to go if you truly want a competitive battlefield.  This also has the positive effect of making it easier to balance out skills for PvP instead of having to rebalance everything if one class gets a new drop.

If the OP is suggesting skills through PvP, I suppose I could get on board as long as they make no real impact on PvP.  I want Players to play Players, not Players to fight other players Gear.  That's not PvP.

 

Edit: Obviously for world PvP, things can't be this way unless you're prepaired to adjust everything in the event of PvP combat starting.

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by Sovrath
 

To each their own. 

The argument for PvP gear through a grind is always proped up on the fact that they want something to go for.  When you ask these people if they would accept cosmetic gifts through PvP, many of them say "no".  That's where the argument breaks down.  PvP should be just that, Player vs. Player.  If you have a gear grind whih we saw in the beginnings of games like WoW and Rift, you are really just participating in PvGear until you equalize it through the grind.

The proposal from GW2, when it first started, was that everyone would have the equalized stats for their class (at least that's what I remembered) and that's the proper way to go if you truly want a competitive battlefield.  This also has the positive effect of making it easier to balance out skills for PvP instead of having to rebalance everything if one class gets a new drop.

If the OP is suggesting skills through PvP, I suppose I could get on board as long as they make no real impact on PvP.  I want Players to play Players, not Players to fight other players Gear.  That's not PvP.

 

Edit: Obviously for world PvP, things can't be this way unless you're prepaired to adjust everything in the event of PvP combat starting.

Well, it is player against player. And what they bring to the table as far as tools to help them succeed. I just think gear should be a little less of the decider but should still be a part of the toolset that the player can put together. However, If the whole idea is for people to get gear so they can do harder encounters (pvp or pve) so they can get better gear to repeat the process, then that buys into the whole "reward me! reward me!" mentality.

I'm just not for gear progression being the goal as opposed to a means to an end. And that end, that meaningful progression, other than perhaps alternate advancement should be your mark upon the world. what you do in the world.

but then again, are we talking about mmo as "world" where players make their mark and create their legacy or are we talking about mmo as "game" where it's all about "events and rewards and tokens, etc?"

I'm even against separation of pvp and pve gear. I think it's very artifical, shallow and pointless.

If an npc troll hits you and a player hits you why should one protect more and another less?

As far as gear, it should give positives and negatives. "light" gear really should allow the player to move quickly but offer some but small  protection if they get hit. Heavy gear should offer a lot of protection but should weigh the player down a bit more and be a bit more cumbersome. One of the things I love about Dark Souls is that my Knight can take a lot of damage but really does move slowly and has to connect perfectly or else the light armored enemies just bounce around and wait to get their jabs in. If I do connect with them they take a lot of damage.

So in that case, the gear you choose can  either reflect your playstyle or inform your playstyle.

Otherwise, if gear is just  cosmetic  let's eliminate it all together. Player can pick their "look" and then hack at each other to their heart's content.

I believe players should have positives and negatives. I dont' really believe in the idea of perfect balance but then again I'm not a huge fan of GW2. I like it well enough but it's not really a game I want to log into each day. And then again, as you say, to each his own.

 

Logged in to say great post boxsnd,  you hit the nail on the head!

post videos OP....

I wish GW2 integrated the WvW into their PvE environment, so you have safe pure PvE zones, but there are wars between different areas, something like TERA's political system, without the voting and shat.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Quesa

Originally posted by Sovrath
 

To each their own. 

The argument for PvP gear through a grind is always proped up on the fact that they want something to go for.  When you ask these people if they would accept cosmetic gifts through PvP, many of them say "no".  That's where the argument breaks down.  PvP should be just that, Player vs. Player.  If you have a gear grind whih we saw in the beginnings of games like WoW and Rift, you are really just participating in PvGear until you equalize it through the grind.

The proposal from GW2, when it first started, was that everyone would have the equalized stats for their class (at least that's what I remembered) and that's the proper way to go if you truly want a competitive battlefield.  This also has the positive effect of making it easier to balance out skills for PvP instead of having to rebalance everything if one class gets a new drop.

If the OP is suggesting skills through PvP, I suppose I could get on board as long as they make no real impact on PvP.  I want Players to play Players, not Players to fight other players Gear.  That's not PvP.

 

Edit: Obviously for world PvP, things can't be this way unless you're prepaired to adjust everything in the event of PvP combat starting.

Well, it is player against player. And what they bring to the table as far as tools to help them succeed. I just think gear should be a little less of the decider but should still be a part of the toolset that the player can put together.

I'm even against separation of pvp and pve gear. I think it's very artifical, shallow and pointless. If the whole idea is for people to get gear so they can do harder encounters (pvp or pve) so they can get better gear then that buys into the whole "reward me! reward me!" mentality.

Additionally, why should there be a differentiation in any gear? If an npc troll hits you and a player hits you why should one protect more and another less?

I'm just not for gear progression being the goal as opposed to a means to an end. And that end, that meaningful progression, other than perhaps alternate advancement should be your mark upon the world. what you do in the world.

but then again, are we talking about mmo as "world" where players make their mark and create their legacy or are we talking about mmo as "game" where it's all about "events and rewards and tokens, etc?"

As far as gear, it should give positives and negatives. "light" gear really should allow the player to move quickly but offer some but small  protection if they get hit. Heavy gear should offer a lot of protection but should weigh the player down a bit more and be a bit more cumbersome. One of the things I love about Dark Souls is that my Knight can take a lot of damage but really does move slowly and has to connect perfectly or else the light armored enemies just bounce around and wait to get their jabs in. If I do connect with them they take a lot of damage.

So in that case, the gear you choose can  either reflect your playstyle or inform your playstyle.

Otherwise, if gear is just  cosmetic  let's eliminate it all together. Player can pick their "look" and then hack at each other to their heart's content.

I believe players should have positives and negatives. I dont' really believe in the idea of perfect balance but then again I'm not a huge fan of GW2. I like it well enough but it's not really a game I want to log into each day. And then again, as you say, to each his own.

 

@Sovrath

Erhm, to clarify if you haven't actually played through GW2, the gear's not entirely equalized as in everyone gets one set of stats and then "Fight!". But there's maximum relative values associated with them. So if you have maximum (exotic) power vitality and toughness armor on, otherwise known as a soldier set, then someone else with a different looking set of armor with exotic level soldier stats will have the same values associated.

But there's also maximum values and superior runes for entirely different sets of armor to coincide with specific builds like power/precision/crit or crit/healing/toughness or what have you. So in that way, the gear does reflect playstyle.You shouldn't be in the situation where someone's soldier set outclasses yours though if you did reach the supposed power ceiling. There's a whole other topic about Ascended gear but I'm not going to get into that. 

@Quesa

I think we're getting into muddied territory a bit: The OP, in reference to GW2, is talking specifically about WvWvW which isn't really PvP and I don't believe should be treated like it in the same light. However, I still think what you said about skills is spot on because it should still be about the content, not playing for the reward. Or rather, the goal/reward of WvW should be winning, not getting a power enhancement. That was part of the reason for taking out, as the OP referred to them as, "Relics". 

@OP

I'm in agreement with some others in this thread that the things you say encourage zergplay are really not as detrimental as you're making them out to be. For example; how does having an objective based gametype favor numbers? Unless you're specifically referring to Keeps (not towers, sentry nodes or supply camps) in which case... why is it bad that a lot of players focus on the biggest and strategically most important objects on the map?

Also, how does the holy trinity allow for more combat scenarios or ways to fight? In almost every circumstance, in most games that have the holy trinity, every encounter is the same. That's where terms like rotation come from; efficiency in executing what is very predictable combat. Each of the things you listed following the comment on the trinity is possible and happen very frequently in GW2 and probably each of the other games so I don't really understand your point here. 

 

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Cronius
Sage said on that last video you can't get the best gear purely by pve. To have the best you need a combination of pvp,pve AND crafting. I'm hoping you just need 2 of the 3 though, don't want to put up with all the drama and politics you get with progression end game pve.

thats really good to know not sure how i missed that one . I do not like to raid anymore its just too much drama with guilds nowadays and its not about skill its about who is the best equiped to do the best dps in most games. Im hoping for pvp progression like DAOC myself but I would not mind a small gear grind if it keeps me up to par with full on pve players that jump into pvp when they are bored of raiding. Crafting gear was awesome in DAOC also until TOA released but then it kinda took most of the templates away replacing them with artifacts. I would love to see it so you can choose between the three of crafting pvp and pve end game gear to be competitive without any different stats for pvp and pve etc. I hated SWTOR , Rift and WOW for this garbage all of them introduced.

Originally posted by Serelisk

@OP

I'm in agreement with some others in this thread that the things you say encourage zergplay are really not as detrimental as you're making them out to be. For example; how does having an objective based gametype favor numbers? Unless you're specifically referring to Keeps (not towers, sentry nodes or supply camps) in which case... why is it bad that a lot of players focus on the biggest and strategically most important objects on the map?

Also, how does the holy trinity allow for more combat scenarios or ways to fight? In almost every circumstance, in most games that have the holy trinity, every encounter is the same. That's where terms like rotation come from; efficiency in executing what is very predictable combat. Each of the things you listed following the comment on the trinity is possible and happen very frequently in GW2 and probably each of the other games so I don't really understand your point here. 

 

The question is: Is PvP more efficient with a zerg or with a group?

In DAoC killing enemies (progressing) as a veteran was much more efficient (and fun) as a group (or solo if stealth class), but as a new player it was more efficient to stay in a zerg. Taking relics was only possible with a huge zerg. Taking keeps could be done with either, depending on time/region/importance of the keep etc. There were always reasons to go out to RvR, even when your realm was getting absolutely destroyed.

 

In GW2 the only thing that matters are the server scores in the end of the 2 weeks. If your server is far behind most of your server will get discouraged and log out / PvE, while the one server that is ahead it's population will constantly rise, thus making the matchup unbalanced. This may be fixed when they implement progression.

The most efficient (and easiest) way to take keeps, towers etc is zerging. With a group you can take camps surely but taking keeps will take a long time and you will almost always get ambushed by the enemy zerg. Sure you may ninja a keep here and there, but after a few deaths to the enemy zerg most people will get frustrated and either log out or make a zerg of their own.

 

The holy trinity allows a single group to be more self sufficient. It's not a matter of 1 group + 1 group > 2 groups anymore. It's more complex. Also why would GW2 PvP be less predictable than any MMO with trinity PvP?

Long duration CC is the opposite of skillful, it is in fact very cheap and doesn't discourage a zerg at all. Instead you get zergs of CC, which is even less fun than getting bowled over by a zerg.

Originally posted by evilastro
Long duration CC is the opposite of skillful, it is in fact very cheap and doesn't discourage a zerg at all. Instead you get zergs of CC, which is even less fun than getting bowled over by a zerg.

You couldn't be more wrong.