Trending Games | Elder Scrolls Online | Star Wars: The Old Republic | WildStar | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,645,092 Users Online:0
Games:681  Posts:6,078,978
Zenimax Online Studios | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Final  (rel 04/04/14)  | Pub:Bethesda Softworks
Distribution: | Retail Price:$59.99 | Pay Type:Subscription
System Req: PC Mac Playstation 4 Xbox One | Out of date info? Let us know!

Elder Scrolls Online Forum » General Discussion » What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

9 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
166 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

12/17/12 8:22:48 PM#21
You don't need threat to tank. You can tank through crowd control, collision detection, blocking and intercepting for team mates etc..
  ghstwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/08
Posts: 386

12/17/12 8:22:57 PM#22
Originally posted by Khelden

Let's not forget, also, that unless the sword/mace and shield warrior deals as much damage as a dual-wield or two-handed warrior, the fact that there is no threat will most likely make him unwanted for high end groups where efficiency matters. 

 

There are a lot of stuff to be improved in the MMO industry, but I'm fairly sure that harming the possibility of playing the role we want isn't something great.

Not at all, high survivability (tank) will still be a great asset for any group with the brains to utilize chokepoints.  Tank type characters would likely have a higher resistance (not immune) to friendly fire and knock backs than other configurations.  The whole point of something like this is to get away from efficiency as a function of dps/tps/hps and move it to what should matter success.

Personally I've never viewed the "role" as something so simple as a trinity slot.  Maybe it's why I prefer hybrid classes and dual combat roles (OT/OH or similar), to me playing meatshield, healbot or DPS exclusively is boring.  I love switching gears fight to fight or even mid fight, having to correctly pick that spot to transition and the extra level of teamwork required to pull it off is more memorable and exciting to me. 

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2888

For the Queen!

12/17/12 8:24:08 PM#23

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6483

12/17/12 8:26:34 PM#24
Originally posted by ShakyMo
You don't need threat to tank. You can tank through crowd control, collision detection, blocking and intercepting for team mates etc..

Good point. I'd like to see something like this, but could you imagine the qq from bad pvprs? I can here them now, "OMG THIS PVP SUCKS!" 

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3546

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

12/17/12 8:31:31 PM#25
Originally posted by FromHell

oh god please no. The age of GW2 clones is coming upon us.

That must be what the Mayans have predicted. :(

Exactly. It is the very End of Days... ^^  I only managed to get to level 60(warrior) in GW2, before I finally said to hell with it.  Its just not my type of game. But some people obviously like it.  I'm going to wait until TESO launches, and give it a try to see how it plays. 

  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/17/12 8:34:46 PM#26
Originally posted by ghstwolf
Originally posted by Khelden

Let's not forget, also, that unless the sword/mace and shield warrior deals as much damage as a dual-wield or two-handed warrior, the fact that there is no threat will most likely make him unwanted for high end groups where efficiency matters. 

 

There are a lot of stuff to be improved in the MMO industry, but I'm fairly sure that harming the possibility of playing the role we want isn't something great.

Not at all, high survivability (tank) will still be a great asset for any group with the brains to utilize chokepoints.  Tank type characters would likely have a higher resistance (not immune) to friendly fire and knock backs than other configurations.  The whole point of something like this is to get away from efficiency as a function of dps/tps/hps and move it to what should matter success.

Personally I've never viewed the "role" as something so simple as a trinity slot.  Maybe it's why I prefer hybrid classes and dual combat roles (OT/OH or similar), to me playing meatshield, healbot or DPS exclusively is boring.  I love switching gears fight to fight or even mid fight, having to correctly pick that spot to transition and the extra level of teamwork required to pull it off is more memorable and exciting to me. 

Having a high survivability is nothing close of being a justification for bringing someone with lower DPS. Take for example Aion when Balaura was released, where Templar were tanking the discovery mode of dungeons then the Gladiators were slowly taking the main tanking spot. Glads were doing more DPS while tanking than Templars and so were able to make the runs faster. (I was playing both.)

 

If a DPS gets on par with a tank, the tank will be left out in any high end group where efficiency is important.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3050

I am more than some of my parts

12/17/12 9:15:40 PM#27
Originally posted by Gravarg

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

No offense intended, but that kind of attitude is what makes alot of people despise the trinity. 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  MyTabbycat

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 297

12/17/12 9:17:44 PM#28
I think they are trying to avoid the whole tank rounds the mobs up and stacks them in a neat pile while the dps aoe's them down. That gets pretty boring. Instead they are trying to go for intelligent mobs that work together to attempt to defeat you.
  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/17/12 9:30:25 PM#29
Originally posted by MyTabbycat
I think they are trying to avoid the whole tank rounds the mobs up and stacks them in a neat pile while the dps aoe's them down. That gets pretty boring. Instead they are trying to go for intelligent mobs that work together to attempt to defeat you.

By removing choice to the players ? I've seen this in another game which was released not so long ago, did not work out very well. 

Having intelligent mobs that work together does not disable the possibility of tanking at all. It can even add to the atmosphere by having the monsters not being tanked go for the weakest member or try to backstab the tank while he's tanking heavy hits. Tanking don't have to be all stats like dodge, parry, defense. It can also be taunting at the proper time, charging a friend to deflect a hit etc. One of the major problem nowadays is that tanks are simply walking aggro turets, while they should require more consideration from the player about which monster should be tanked, when and which party member should be saved first. The tank should be an avatar of damage PREVENTION, while healer should be on the other side, dealing with damage RESTORATION.

Having the character the most resilient get the attention of the biggest threat is simply logic. Just like having the light armor characters behind those in heavy armor is.

As I said before, I see no problem in having alternatives to the tanking system such as two rangers confusing the monsters with timed attacks and so on, but the absence of aggro table simply denies everything and simply doing blind fights based on randomness, which is ugly.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2888

For the Queen!

12/17/12 9:33:29 PM#30
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Gravarg

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

No offense intended, but that kind of attitude is what makes alot of people despise the trinity. 

None taken, but if you're the only one (or two) fulfilling a role that makes you more responsible than a role with 5 or 16 others doing that role.  The more people that have the same role the less you have be on your game.  I have played all roles, and still do, but I find tank to be the most challenging.  Which is why I like it so much.  I've fallen asleep playing my hunter before hehe. Literally, but it was after like 30 hours straight after TBC was launched lol.

 

I've done all aspects of MMOs, and nothing gives me a bigger rush than tanking a bunch of adds and a boss.  One of the most underated thing released this year is WoW's challenge mode dungeons.  You get a major adrenaline rush...I was suprised in the player's choice vote that WoW wasn't even listed for Most Innovative...since Mists of Pandaria IS the most innovative release this year, pet battles, challenge mode, etc. all new concepts based on old concepts...which is what innovation is all about.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18368

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/17/12 9:34:41 PM#31
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Gravarg

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

No offense intended, but that kind of attitude is what makes alot of people despise the trinity. 

Or love it.

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Yizle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/10
Posts: 518

12/17/12 9:36:38 PM#32
Originally posted by bansan
*snip* Sadly though, even if it were to be executed perfectly, the game would fail.  That leap in complexity would alienate too many players that want (need is probably the better word) the static encounter to be "epic".

I don't know about failing, but you need go no further than GW2 to see this play out.  You get some really good players that work togother and do the content with w/e mix of classes is available.

Then you have people, like the OP, who can't hack it outside the trinity and think everything else sucks.

Probably because all he really knows is WoW

  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/17/12 9:39:04 PM#33
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Gravarg

As an avid tanker, I've seen this coming for a long time.  I'm one of the few that actually loves, and I mean LOVES tanking.  You're the backbone of any good group.  If you go down, so does the rest of the group.  At least with healers, you usually have some dps class that can take over, or you can outright tank the final few % without heals...but healer shouldn't ever die if you're a good tank hehe (unless they're stupid and get caught in AoEs, durdur duuur).

 

I like the popularity that comes with being the tank.  My guild knows my name.  They know they can call on me for great tanking deeds.  I'm not some random "replace with any millions of other" DPSers.  I'm not some healer that doesn't have to do thier job because the raid has plenty of others to pick up their slack.  I'm the tank, the one (or two) and only tank!  I take the hits, and have people pay royalties for my repair bill.  I laugh at the most fearsome bosses, and dance on thier corpses after they fail to vanquish me!  I am the master of knowledge, and I know every raid, every boss, where to position the fight, how to keep my allies alive without healing. I AM TANK!

 

 

Just my 2 pennies :)

No offense intended, but that kind of attitude is what makes alot of people despise the trinity. 

I'm not so sure this is what made people despise the trinity... Most DPS players enjoy doing this, DPSing. Many healers and tanks also enjoy what they do. Otherwise, the switch is usually easy, especially considering that most of them comes from WoW.

In my opinion, what people probably dislike about holy trinity is how it can be very long to get in a group for a DPS and since they make up for the majority of the players, there's a feeling of "problem". I don't think the trinity in itself is the problem, more likely the absence of alternatives. If the trinity was only required for high end players due to the optimization following the model and that players on lower end could run with alternatives to this system, it would probably fix a lot of things.

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

12/17/12 9:41:51 PM#34
This actually sounds pretty sweet.  I'm excited now.
  Traugar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 159

12/17/12 9:43:49 PM#35
I hope the trinity is gone.  It makes for some of the most boring gameplay ever put into a game.  Every trinity based game feels the same.  I wouldn't have so much of an issue if it were more flexible, and allowed for more than the 3 standard roles.  I miss the days of classes dedicated to mezzing, and buffing.  
  Khelden

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 21

 
OP  12/17/12 10:02:57 PM#36
Originally posted by Traugar
I hope the trinity is gone.  It makes for some of the most boring gameplay ever put into a game.  Every trinity based game feels the same.  I wouldn't have so much of an issue if it were more flexible, and allowed for more than the 3 standard roles.  I miss the days of classes dedicated to mezzing, and buffing.  

The trinity doesn't block this kind of classes. It simply implies that you will be using at least a tank, at least a healer and at least someone specializing in damage dealing.

Rift did add the Support role while using the dungeon finder, while not entirely dedicated to a single thing these spot can be filled with buffers, damage/healer etc.

 

I don't see which days you are missing though, the trinity has been there on my first MMO which was Ultima Online and which is very old, it was also in my first fantasy game which was D&D lol... I think it's simply  a logical way to set your units. The chances for it to be gone are below low, even in games without it players are recreating it using different ways or simply move to another game.

  Traugar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 159

12/17/12 10:12:28 PM#37
Originally posted by Khelden
Originally posted by Traugar
I hope the trinity is gone.  It makes for some of the most boring gameplay ever put into a game.  Every trinity based game feels the same.  I wouldn't have so much of an issue if it were more flexible, and allowed for more than the 3 standard roles.  I miss the days of classes dedicated to mezzing, and buffing.  

The trinity doesn't block this kind of classes. It simply implies that you will be using at least a tank, at least a healer and at least someone specializing in damage dealing.

Rift did add the Support role while using the dungeon finder, while not entirely dedicated to a single thing these spot can be filled with buffers, damage/healer etc.

 

I don't see which days you are missing though, the trinity has been there on my first MMO which was Ultima Online and which is very old, it was also in my first fantasy game which was D&D lol... I think it's simply  a logical way to set your units. The chances for it to be gone are below low, even in games without it players are recreating it using different ways or simply move to another game.

I didn't say I missed days without trinity.  I said I missed days where there was more to it than tank/heal/dps.  Also trinity is,and isn't in D&D.  You have a tank, but the DM also has to take into the intellect of the creature so sometimes getting the creature to swing at a tank required proper positioning of the players so that it had no choice but to attack him.   I didn't know about Rift and the roles system.  I only played Rift in beta, and while I thought it was a pretty good themepark the lack of available quest paths made it not so fun to go through again.  I do think removing trinity is a good thing though as long as it isn't done by making all classes the same.  If players choose to recreate it then fine, but there should be more than one group layout that works.  

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1622

12/17/12 10:22:25 PM#38
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think no threat is a good thing

You can tank in otherways, worked out ok with gw1 and war.

I enjoy threat mechanics.  Interestingly enough, I didn't enjoy GW1...

You make me like charity

  MyTabbycat

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 297

12/18/12 5:46:42 AM#39

We should hopefully find out more information on how tanking will work once the game is in beta.

I would think there would be more ways for tanks to handle the mobs such as with blocks and interrupts and stuns.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

12/18/12 7:44:24 AM#40
Originally posted by KhinRunite
Originally posted by SirFubar
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by ShakyMo
From what I understand TESO while it has healers doesn't have traditional tanks or any threat mechanics

If that's true, the healers better be able to take care of themselves as well as the group or no one is going to play the healing pin cushion.  The problem I have with games like GW2 is that the combat mechanic is based around death and ressurecting rather than focusing on survival.  All of the hard encounters are designed specifically to kill people and success is determined more on attentive rezzing than anything else.

What? GW2 combat mechanic based around death and res?? If you're success is determined more on attentive rezzing than anything else, you obviously don't know how to play or just don't understand the mechanics of the game well. In a good group, its completely possible to do every single dungeons without having to rez anyone 1 single time if you know what you're doing. And some can be really challenging before you figure them out.

Yeah it's pretty obvious that the game's mechanics (still) hasn't sunk in yet for some people. The mere fact that others can conquer what they can't attests to that, but they prefer to blame it on the game.

I don't know what the frack is this talk about GW2's combat mega-failing, but I really prefer not being rejected in a group because I can't do anything else aside from DPSing, where in any MMO is the most abundant archetype. Maybe because I always pick the DPS class, and this game gives me the ability to tank and heal all at the same time. Natural tanks and healers may be feeling sore because they're no longer that special in GW2, and by extension in this game.

The angry feedback from many players over action combat being implemented in just about every new and upcoming MMORPG is due to many being upset that our genre is being over-run by action junkies who should be playing and whining about more MMOFPS instead of demanding the industry bastardize MMORPG's into twitch games.

9 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search