Originally posted by Distopia

The main problem I have with both of these responses, which I agree with both of you it would make for a better TES MMO, to be like a TES game.

Is that we're MMO fans as well as TES fans. We're used to players having an impact on our experience. I was speaking toward single-player only players. Which I can't imagine there would be a huge crossover of, into this TES MMO in the first place especially when it's not actually made by Bethesda or doesn't sound like TES.

~that may be different if the game was heralding TES features~

For those who did crossover into the game we'd prefer, it wouldn't be that same experience for them anyway. As it would be a free for all, where they're not in control of their world, instead other players are in control of their experience. As I said that's something completely different than what a TES SP experience is.

That part of my response is toward those saying TES fans would want that game, I'm saying only the ones who also play MMO's would and like their MMO to be lawless.

Now the first part is simply saying that I don't think it's smart to have single-player fans in mind when creating an MMO. To me that's like designing an RTS for FPS fans, it just doesn't make sense.

What works well in an MMO with little problems is controlled environments, and sectioned off PVP if you're aiming for the masses more than anything else. And I am sure they are.

@ jack, The problem with your WOW clone comment is, this game doesn't resmeble WOW in features as much as it does GW2, DAOC and EQ (open dungeons etc).

 

 

Distropia you continue to hammer the "in control of your experience" point,  but what you fail to realize is that a TES mmo doesn't need to be a full loot pvp mmo.

A true TES mmo would be incredibly succesfull as a 90% PVE game, as long as it feels exactly  like the original games and it has a lot of content or sandbox features. in fact i will go as far as saying that it will be incredibly more succesful as a pve mostly game instead of a free for all, full loot pvp game.

i am perfectly familiar with how little popularity ffa full loot games have in the mmo world and, imo, TES should be a pve first game. pvp should be coralled to either arenas or only certain "lawless" parts of the map, or perhaps only for those that turn their pvp flag on.

this does not take away the fact that the game has to feel exaclty like the TES games and not like a generic 3rd person, tab targeting WoW clone. 

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Distopia

The main problem I have with both of these responses, which I agree with both of you it would make for a better TES MMO, to be like a TES game.

Is that we're MMO fans as well as TES fans. We're used to players having an impact on our experience. I was speaking toward single-player only players. Which I can't imagine there would be a huge crossover of, into this TES MMO in the first place especially when it's not actually made by Bethesda or doesn't sound like TES.

~that may be different if the game was heralding TES features~

For those who did crossover into the game we'd prefer, it wouldn't be that same experience for them anyway. As it would be a free for all, where they're not in control of their world, instead other players are in control of their experience. As I said that's something completely different than what a TES SP experience is.

That part of my response is toward those saying TES fans would want that game, I'm saying only the ones who also play MMO's would and like their MMO to be lawless.

Now the first part is simply saying that I don't think it's smart to have single-player fans in mind when creating an MMO. To me that's like designing an RTS for FPS fans, it just doesn't make sense.

What works well in an MMO with little problems is controlled environments, and sectioned off PVP if you're aiming for the masses more than anything else. And I am sure they are.

@ jack, The problem with your WOW clone comment is, this game doesn't resmeble WOW in features as much as it does GW2, DAOC and EQ (open dungeons etc).

 

 

Distropia you continue to hammer the "in control of your experience" point,  but what you fail to realize is that a TES mmo doesn't need to be a full loot pvp mmo.

A true TES mmo would be incredibly succesfull as a 90% PVE game, as long as it feels exactly  like the original games and it has a lot of content or sandbox features. in fact i will go as far as saying that it will be incredibly more succesful as a pve mostly game instead of a free for all, full loot pvp game.

i am perfectly familiar with how little popularity ffa full loot games have in the mmo world and, imo, TES should be a pve first game. pvp should be coralled to either arenas or only certain "lawless" parts of the map, or perhaps only for those that turn their pvp flag on.

 

this does not take away the fact that the game has to feel exaclty like the TES games and not like a generic 3rd person, tab targeting WoW clone. 

 

 

agreed. I dont think most TES players are FFA PvP personality types to be completely honest. They are explorer personality types.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

 

Distropia you continue to hammer the "in control of your experience" point,  but what you fail to realize is that a TES mmo doesn't need to be a full loot pvp mmo.

A true TES mmo would be incredibly succesfull as a 90% PVE game, as long as it feels exactly  like the original games and it has a lot of content or sandbox features. in fact i will go as far as saying that it will be incredibly more succesful as a pve mostly game instead of a free for all, full loot pvp game.

i am perfectly familiar with how little popularity ffa full loot games have in the mmo world and, imo, TES should be a pve first game. pvp should be coralled to either arenas or only certain "lawless" parts of the map, or perhaps only for those that turn their pvp flag on.

 

this does not take away the fact that the game has to feel exaclty like the TES games and not like a generic 3rd person, tab targeting WoW clone. 

 

 

I think the best TES MMO experience would be SWG's design changed a bit to be more fantasy oriented, pusedo action based combat, with non combatant roles, for trade (store owners) and entertainment (bards). With the same tef/flag PVP system SWG had.

There you go with that WOW clone thing again :P.

I still have some hope for this as a huge fan of DAOC. But some of that video interview did worry me, mainly the stuff about zones, PVP and PVE gear as reward, and high end raiding.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

 

Distropia you continue to hammer the "in control of your experience" point,  but what you fail to realize is that a TES mmo doesn't need to be a full loot pvp mmo.

A true TES mmo would be incredibly succesfull as a 90% PVE game, as long as it feels exactly  like the original games and it has a lot of content or sandbox features. in fact i will go as far as saying that it will be incredibly more succesful as a pve mostly game instead of a free for all, full loot pvp game.

i am perfectly familiar with how little popularity ffa full loot games have in the mmo world and, imo, TES should be a pve first game. pvp should be coralled to either arenas or only certain "lawless" parts of the map, or perhaps only for those that turn their pvp flag on.

 

this does not take away the fact that the game has to feel exaclty like the TES games and not like a generic 3rd person, tab targeting WoW clone. 

 

 

I think the best TES MMO experience would be SWG's design changed a bit to be more fantasy oriented, pusedo action based combat, with non combatant roles, for trade (store owners) and entertainment (bards). With the same tef/flag PVP system SWG had.

There you go with that WOW clone thing again :P.

I still have some hope for this as a huge fan of DAOC. But some of that video interview did worry me, mainly the stuff about zones, PVP and PVE gear as reward, and high end raiding.

for the most part when you combined MO and DF together you have basically (with some differences) have TES Online.

So we know its possible. Cost? both those developers have little money...SO

The best TES MMO is really as everyone has been saying, Skyrim online and it IS possible

Yes  the combat is possible for a mmo. They just choose not to do it. 

well i could say: tab targeting, hot bars, skill trees, no consequence combat, 3rd person view, quest driven, "que up" instanced bgs,"que up" instanced dugeons/raids, gear grind, fast travel, usless crafting, no sandbox elements, pve centered fantasy mmo.

or just be lazy and say: WoW clone.

i'm lazy.

Originally posted by Mephster

Yes  the combat is possible for a mmo. They just choose not to do it. 

it would have been slightly better if they had said

'The cost of developing FPS style combat doesnt match our objectives'

well maybe not now that I think of it.

I am going to be laughing so hard when all these EXPECTATIONS and SPECULATIONS turn into "hate" threads once the game is released. It is going to happen that people are going to say that "they read it on some internet site" that this game was going to have this or that only to be depressed when it does not happen. Oh the power of the internet or the power of wishes over reality.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

~On top of that~

IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

 

 

It isn't exactly the same situation as Bioware and TOR. First off Bioware was bought and gutted by EA first. Then they took an IP that had a mix of gamer fans and non gamer fans. Next they actually didn't deliver what the fans were expecting.

Bioware/EA didn't take there core fans into consideration when making SWTOR, they wanted to shoot for the moon and go more traditional with a different spin and forgot many of the core aspects of the IP and the previous games that had fans hooked.

From where I'm sitting, Zenimax is doing just what Bioware did. They are forgeting they had 12mil+ fans and are attempting to design something for a hypothetical broader audience.

The risk again in my eyes was not dancing with the one that brought you.

And no, your mistaken again. I actually don't believe TES lends itself well to an FFA PvP setting. This for me was a missed opportunity for a guaranteed win, a PvE centric sandbox.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Gisborne

MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

completely agree.

if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

 

not to mention DF has an aim based combat, FE also, now Tera, and other games as well.

 

 

it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell. it is a big gamble since fps combat is quite new and not universally accepted in the mmo world as of yet.

 

 

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

But the way i see it, if you make it like WOW then when people get bore dof the new mmo because its got far less content then a 7 year old wow mmo then they go back to wow and quit for other games, at least if its unique and people like the combat they will always come back for more or not return to wow as the combat is better and more fun...

Im playing tera right now, im a lv 42 Lancer and the game is so god dam amazing, ive even stopped playing swtor for it. the combat is just so refreshing and keeps you on your toes, and even though the questing is basic and the same the whole way through its simple and fun and the epic envoriments and mob style makes it intresting and keeps you moving on for more.

This actually brought another problem for TESO, Whats gonna happen to loot ??

For Morrowind and Skyrim, you kill someone, you get to loot their corpse for their gear, and weapons. But since its a themepark and not a sandbox, whats gonna happen to the loot system. Will we still get to FFA loot system.

Oh man, whats happening to TES, Whats happening??

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by DAS1337

 

This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

but they DO work.

are you seriously trying to say that the combat engine in darkfall 'dosent work'? its as good or better than Skyrim combat

darkfall has a very good combat engine built by a small staff. PEROID.

It zenimax doesnt want to hire people to build and maintain one that is a different story but to say its not possible or that darkfall doesnt have a good one is beyond asine.

Wow, I am so surprised that you ignored the second part of that statement!!  So surprised! 

 

In case you don't understand sarcasm, I'm pointing it out for you.

 

"Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use"

 

I don't care if the staff is one person or one thousand people, if any system is less efficient than another, it is still less efficient.  Unless you consider a system where you have to pre-load spells, go in and out of combat mode, UI mode, and exploration mode.  Where hotkeys do not trigger upon pressing them and you go in and out of third person, completely breaking up the entire flow of combat... better.  No.  I just gave reasons why it is less efficient.  Now go ahead and try to argue it.  You can't. 

 

Oh, but that doesn't support your argument?  I'm sorry?

everything you have just said in detail darkfall does and they do it extreemly well.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry for the rage not all of them but most of them and it will work not mostly becuase its currently working perfectly.

Nobody has an issue with darkfall combat engine.

 

You guys and your Mortal Online and Darkfall love.  It's so mindnumbingly ridiculous.  Just because it is the best adaptation of what is currently available does not make it a good system.  The most damning evidence of the 'Greatness' of those combat systems is the fact the neither of them have more than 10,000 active subscriptions.  Don't pull any B.S. about the games being niche, because there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have tried those games and 99% of them have left. 

Those combat systems are littered with lag, glitches, warping, phasing, blinking, exploitation and complete and utter failure.. the fact that you can actually use them as a positive in nearly any situation is mind blowing.  These systems are a black hole for players.  They try it and vanish forever.

Mount and Blade has everything you would need minus the magic... which I am sure could be done and has been through mods.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

No, TES players just don't like getting ganked in the starting areas by gangs of older players. Darkfall isn't low in population because it has bad features, it has a low population because it's player base is strangling the game by the horrible way it treats new players. Eventually older players leave the game but they aren't replace by new players because, when the new players try the game, they get harassed by older players in the starting area until they quit.

An Elder Scrolls game that had some of the good features of Darkfall but with more of a PVE Bent would go over very well I believe.

Skill based, non linear quests, Non tab targeting, Elder Scrolls setting and history, plus the best of the Darkfall features all rolled up into one.

Yellow and orange don't really add up hehe, isn't that a result of bad feature implementation? THE devs are responsible for what their players are allowed to do.

The rest I can agree with, sure, that might make for a good game, might is key though. As one major impact on sandboxes as a whole is community, and it would mostly boil down to that to make for a good sandbox game. I've wanted that back for years, a good sandbox community is hard to come by in this day and age. I'm usually looked at as foolish to think it's possible anymore.

the thing is if certian features attract certian types of people you dont want in your game then that is the actual answer not 'FPS is not really possible in an MMO' (I clearly paraphrase).

Never the less the fix is easy and doesnt require a rearchitecture of the gaming engine and AV has actually done some variable of that. The problem for them is there core community are sociopaths who want to hack up new players but want to complain about it too.

 

added: actually that is not completely true actually new players dont get targeted as much as people claim but what does happen is clans get a city and then are suprised when they get raided all the time.

Yeah, put the blame on the community.  I've met more good people in DF than bad.  All three times that I tried to return, I didn't leave because I got killed.  I left because the game is greatly flawed and not at all what they promised.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

 

It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

 

as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.

Completely overblown misconception.  Do you not think that the people who try darkfall don't already know that it is a full loot, open FFA PvP game?  Of course they do, don't be silly.  Most people understand that they will be killed early and often.  Most people realize that the game just isn't up to your typical MMO standards after years of post-launch fixing.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by salenger

Originally posted by caremuchless

 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 

Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

It had potential though, you have to admit.

In my opinion there is ONE MECHANIC in DF melee combat that ruins it and makes it totally silly: if you get hit in the back you take 40% more damage.  I understand where this idea came from, but the result is a chicken-with-heads cut off sticky-backing figure-eight sprinting melee fight, not a deliberate, careful duel.

For that kind of thing I would go to Mortal Online, which has combat closer to Mount&Blade but only first person, you can't even go into third (to prevent people corner-looking most likely).

I wish Zenimax would have taken the best parts of both those systems and put them into ESO.

All major features of Skyrim are possible in an MMO setting, with minor tweaks at best.  Hotbars are fine, nothing wrong with hotbars, both DF and MO have them for quick access to vital items, and in DFs case, some cool-down abilites.  Nothing wrong with that, but it's the visceral, punchy combat immersion that I would want to see from ESO and we aren't getting it.  I love TES but that as well as the art-style are deal-breakers to me.

Niehter system is good, this is why they didn't.

Originally posted by DAS1337

 

You guys and your Mortal Online and Darkfall love.  It's so mindnumbingly ridiculous.  Just because it is the best adaptation of what is currently available does not make it a good system.  The most damning evidence of the 'Greatness' of those combat systems is the fact the neither of them have more than 10,000 active subscriptions.  Don't pull any B.S. about the games being niche, because there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have tried those games and 99% of them have left. 

 

Those combat systems are littered with lag, glitches, warping, phasing, blinking, exploitation and complete and utter failure.. the fact that you can actually use them as a positive in nearly any situation is mind blowing.  These systems are a black hole for players.  They try it and vanish forever.

 nobody said DF and MO are good examples, but they examples that it is possible to do it.

all we are saying is that if such small companies can do all that, then bigger companies should have no problem in doing it right. they just dont want to even try.

your negativism is a perfect example of lack of vision.

Originally posted by Thorqemada

If you know the Massively site and the "Anvil of Crom" that had a new article recently where the US based Author talks about to play on the European Server and the increase of Ping up to 250 ms and more and Players from Australia and NZ write comments that they have Pings of 500ms and more hurting their pvp experience its pretty obvious why a worldwide mmo not can have use of real time action combat.

Finally, someone with some sense!

Hoorah!

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

 

It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

 

as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.

Completely overblown misconception.  Do you not think that the people who try darkfall don't already know that it is a full loot, open FFA PvP game?  Of course they do, don't be silly.  Most people understand that they will be killed early and often.  Most people realize that the game just isn't up to your typical MMO standards after years of post-launch fixing.

oh they completely know its FFA PvP and they think they are up for it but when they get in they change their mind but do it by making up excuses. like 'its the grind!'

its like the guy who joins that marathon who has done some running before but never a really hard core marathon. He thinks he is bad a$$ but then finds out not so much so he blames it on the wind.

and yes I am saying gamers are immature and not in tune with themselves or reality

Originally posted by Lucioon

This actually brought another problem for TESO, Whats gonna happen to loot ??

For Morrowind and Skyrim, you kill someone, you get to loot their corpse for their gear, and weapons. But since its a themepark and not a sandbox, whats gonna happen to the loot system. Will we still get to FFA loot system.

 

Oh man, whats happening to TES, Whats happening??

It won't have it most likely.  There never was PvP or player full loot in TES because there were never multiple players actually playing the game at the same time.  Since there are heroics and BG's with gear rewards, I expect a no loot system.