Originally posted by SoulOfRaziel

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

its not a themepark. fact.

It is an open world rpg. In mmo terms it is a themepark.

To consider the TES series a themepark is laughable. Is it a pull sandbox? No it is not but its definately not a themepark.

This is the problem with labels, everyone has their own idea of what exactly a label means. I can see the themepark comparison more than I can see a sandbox one, going on my own idea of what a themepark usually entails. But is it really that important or mean all that much in the end? WOW is a themepark but so was DAOC, these games are nothing alike yet they fall in the same labelled category, TES may not be like WOW, but it shares many of the same characteristics of games that have been labelled in such a way. Mainly open world adventuring, vanguard comes to mind really fast on that topic. Not minecraft or wurm.

To be fair TES does lean very far twords being a sandbox. The only thing it needs to fit into the category is the ability to generate content in some way as a part of gameplay and not through mods.

 

But that apply to any MMO actually. Any THEMEPARK with those elements of gameplay would be a sandbox now. Imagine if World of Warcraft, added a new major patch tomorrow that allow players to build on the world and change the world. It would be sandbox now, even though it's the same game. Just with features that define a sandbox. This is why there is not true definition of a sandbox and theme park.

TES is a THEMEPARK single player game. Not sandbox at all. Adding sandbox features to it, just like adding sandbox features to any THEMEPARK will make it more sandbox actually.

That would qualify it as a sandbox. It would be a bad sandbox but a sandbox nonetheless.

 

That's what I said. Any THEMEPARK with those features would now be a sandbox. But without those features , it's still a THEMEPARK.

Like in my World of Warcraft example,

World of Warcraft in its current form is a THEMEPARK MMO to most people, but if Blizzard added a major patch tomorrow that allow players to build on the world, and change the world, it would be a sandbox now. But without those features being added from the patch, it would have been a THEMEPARK. TES is in the same boat. Yeah you can add sandbox features to it to make it a sandbox,

But why would you need to do that, if it's already a sandbox like so many people claim?


TES is a open world RPG. Not Sandbox. All MMO should have open worlds(Sandbox and Themepark). That doesn't define a sandbox.

Most of the gameplay elements from TES, are the same solo quest and venture elements found in standard THEMEPARK solo gameplay.

Wouldn't features of both make it a sandpark?  You can't be a full blown sandbox by offering one or two sandbox features.  That's like calling GW2 a FPS because it has quasi twich combat.

I totally agree with u on this one u cant specify the "type" of a mmorpg just because it have one or two features that reminds u of something.

I guess you could call it a sandpark. Though it meets the criteria to be called a sandbox.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by MMOExposed
But can anybody explain to me how it's a WoW Clone?

Been seeing this term thrown around a lot on the topic of TESO.

Please explain how it's a WoW clone to me...

I'm interested as well. Even though TESO is not what I want in an ES mmorgp I don't see how it's a "WoW clone".

It would appear that any MMO that uses the same combat mechanics as WoW / EQ / DAoC / SWG / Aion / FFXI / SWTOR...etc, makes it a WoW clone.  The other argument is that if it's a themepark, it's a WoW clone.  If people are going to restort to labels, they should at least learn how to use the correct ones.

The game is a themepark and it uses traditional MMO combat mechanics with tab targeting and ability bars with hot buttons.  It appears to be going the same route as GW2 in regards to questing and exploration.  It's using the Hero engine like SWTOR, so of course people are already saying it will fail just because they think TOR failed.  It has pretty nice graphics from what I see, but for some reason people are up in arms saying it should look just like Skyrim, which No MMO, even Archeage is able to do due to the technical limitations of MMOs in general.  The game will have classes which of course is perplexing current TES fans since they seem to have forgotten that older TES games also had classes as an option if you didn't want to worry about skill assortments on your own.

Other than my doubts about how they will implement raids (as in raid or die end game), I'm rather looking forward to what the game proposes to offer.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Uhwop

If the scans are real, then I would say yes it is.

And for no other reason then because the devs in the article chose to make it a point to compare just about every feature of the game with with WoW, and state that they will function the same.

If you tell me you're making a product, and you choose to compare your product to another existing product, and tell me that it will function like that other product, I have no choice but to come away with the impression that you're atttempting to emulate that other product.  In that regard, yes, you made a clone.

You and I obviously view WOW comparisons differently when they're made in mainstream articles. WOW is simply the face of the MMO to the broader gaming public, they could say well it's like DAOC, but how many outside of the older MMO space are going to be able to relate to that message and understand it?

 Please link me to an article were the developers for an upcoming MMO compare every feature of thier game to WoW and state that it will function just like WoW. 

Even when theier features are and do resemble WoW, they don't tell you that. 

Everything I read was just excuses for why the game will play exactly like wow, and that we should "give it a chance" because it's got the ES name on it.   That may be ok for you, but not me.

If you're trying to sell me crap then tell me it's crap, don't try and sell me crap and say it's roses; I know the difference.

They could just make Morrowind with online play, and every single fan of ES would immediately know how to play it.  Or do you really think you're not intelligent enough to "understand how to play" it if it didn't have "world of warcraft controls"?

BTW:  I played DAoC.  RVR is the only diffierence between WoW and DAoC.  Everything about how those to games are played are the same.  Were do you think Blizzard got the idea for instanced small team based BG's and the 40vs40 alterac valley?  Blizzard didn't just copy EQ, they also copied DAoC.  And blizzard never referenced their mechanics to any other MMO, other then to say that they "looked at what worked and what didn't" or "what was fun and what wasn't" and refined those aspects to create a better experience then previous MMO's offered. 

Well first DAOC and WOW handled dungeons and things like that completely different, quests as well.

You really didn't hit on the point I was making though, this isn't about what every company does, just how I view the comparison of WOW when speaking to the public.

Now for your question plenty of devs have used WOW to explain features in their games in public venues. It's been going on for years.

 

 Im sorry, but GW2 is handling quest givers diffierently then WoW, that doesn't mean it's not a quest grinder.  No idea what you're talking about either, because when I played DAoC I would go into a town, gather a few quests, go complete them, return to the quest giver and collect my reward.  Just because there's a minor deviation in the way in which it's represented to you doesn't make it anything less then it is, quest givers giving me a quest to do something for a reward.

And I did hit on the point.  They weren't making simple comparisons, they stated for many things that they would work exactly the same.  The only reason to do this is if the gameplay is nothing like the ES games, and because you copied what was done in another game and want to make it clear to everyone that that's how it will work. 

If you really read the leaked pages and think that the game won't play just like WoW, then you're only arguing for the sake of arguing or you interpreted was was written instead of reading it for what it was; the devs stating that the game will play just like WoW, with some minor twists on some mechanics to try and make it seem like something new.

In otherwords, exactly what we've been getting for the last 7 years or more.

Please direct me to the AAA mmo that used the same mechanics as wow and after a year has managed to be more successfull then EQ in it's prime.  I'll give you a hint on were to look, there isn't one.

No studio has been able to produce an MMO, using the same mechanics as WoW with their own little twist, and be anything more then a mediocre success.  Unless they go free to play; that sir, is a fact.

Originally posted by MMOExposed
But can anybody explain to me how it's a WoW Clone?

Been seeing this term thrown around a lot on the topic of TESO.

Please explain how it's a WoW clone to me...

Wow is just a benchmark ignorant people use who like the dumbed down variation of MMORPGs. It heralded the end or need for any future developers to produce MMOs for people with an IQ over 85.

Wow added whack a mole components to the genre; but other than that added little some people think WoW was original but in reality it is just slick and will run on the most basic of machines for people who are poor or do not like to spend money on computers.

What a joke.  Anyone who buys a Blizzard game should be shot for supportting the abortion that has destroyed the MMORPG genre and now TES Online.

What a joke, they are not going to make a MMORPG that replicates the TES experience, WHAT THE F--K IS THE POINT OF USING THE TES IP THEN?

(Well I know the point, shameless marketing)

--Screw this, I am going to play Pre-CU SWG....

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by DSWBeef

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

its not a themepark. fact.

It is an open world rpg. In mmo terms it is a themepark.

To consider the TES series a themepark is laughable. Is it a pull sandbox? No it is not but its definately not a themepark.

This is the problem with labels, everyone has their own idea of what exactly a label means. I can see the themepark comparison more than I can see a sandbox one, going on my own idea of what a themepark usually entails. But is it really that important or mean all that much in the end? WOW is a themepark but so was DAOC, these games are nothing alike yet they fall in the same labelled category, TES may not be like WOW, but it shares many of the same characteristics of games that have been labelled in such a way. Mainly open world adventuring, vanguard comes to mind really fast on that topic. Not minecraft or wurm.

And at the OP I don't think it looks like what WOW is at all thus far.

Exactly. Im all for a good themepark i jsut prefer a sandbox. But lately all the themeparks we get are WoW Clones. Rift is slightly different in that they have world events coop dungeons, and more. Ahh yes i forgot about vanguard, I think Skyrim to vanguard is a good comparison. Hmm may resub.

I believe Vanguard is going F2P very soon.

Originally posted by Uhwop

O

 

 Im sorry, but GW2 is handling quest givers diffierently then WoW, that doesn't mean it's not a quest grinder.  No idea what you're talking about either, because when I played DAoC I would go into a town, gather a few quests, go complete them, return to the quest giver and collect my reward.  Just because there's a minor deviation in the way in which it's represented to you doesn't make it anything less then it is, quest givers giving me a quest to do something for a reward.

And I did hit on the point.  They weren't making simple comparisons, they stated for many things that they would work exactly the same.  The only reason to do this is if the gameplay is nothing like the ES games, and because you copied what was done in another game and want to make it clear to everyone that that's how it will work. 

If you really read the leaked pages and think that the game won't play just like WoW, then you're only arguing for the sake of arguing or you interpreted was was written instead of reading it for what it was; the devs stating that the game will play just like WoW, with some minor twists on some mechanics to try and make it seem like something new.

In otherwords, exactly what we've been getting for the last 7 years or more.

Please direct me to the AAA mmo that used the same mechanics as wow and after a year has managed to be more successfull then EQ in it's prime.  I'll give you a hint on were to look, there isn't one.

No studio has been able to produce an MMO, using the same mechanics as WoW with their own little twist, and be anything more then a mediocre success.  Unless they go free to play; that sir, is a fact.

 

 

WHo said anything about whether TESO was going to be a success or not?

Originally posted by MMOExposed
But can anybody explain to me how it's a WoW Clone?

Been seeing this term thrown around a lot on the topic of TESO.

Please explain how it's a WoW clone to me...

Nope,TESO is not a WOW clone and that goes for every MMO.

When you clone something then it ends up the exact same,everything is identical.Now i'm pretty sure there is not another MMO that has the name WOW and the exact same lore,classes,races,cities,maps and so on.

What TESO and WOW and every 3d MMO has in common is that they are all MMO that share things found in the mother of all 3d MMO.

EQ is that mother of all 3d MMOs.

PS. your poll is shot,how can every MMO be a clone of WOW when WOW was not the first MMO lol,use your head please.

It isn't a "WoWclone" persay, but it is massively influenced by the success of WoW as evidenced by them taking the fundamentals of The Elder Scrolls and trading it for a more traditional MMO experience.

In other words, this game is going to be crap

Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

What a joke.  Anyone who buys a Blizzard game should be shot for supportting the abortion that has destroyed the MMORPG genre and now TES Online.

How is it Blizzards fault that everyone tried to copy them?

What, so Blizzard should die because they made a game that swepped popular culture and took the MMO genre by storm?

How about you direct all that pent up anger toward the people who try to immulate the success of  WoW instead of the people who MADE WoW, huh?

Jesus Christ, with your shitty logic I should hate Apple because Google made the Android smartphone.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Its not a wow clone per se. Its just a term that people use for 'omgyetanotherthemeparkgame' games with publishers afraid of losing money on possible innovative/non-standard things. 

 

so its not a wow clone, its just another themepark game and to make things worse, its using the name of worlds biggest and proably most famous sandbox single player series. To me it comapares to something like... they make a Fifa Online game thats not about football but basketball, with fifa's name on it. its that weird :P

 

edit: the game is everything that its single player series arent. Thats its biggest problem, and thats what all this fuss is about. It wouldnt be that bad if they used some other IP, but people who play and like TES like it for what is it.  Last thing i want to play now is another wow/swtor with different skins.

 

Two things...

1) TES is not a Sandbox. It's open world RPG, not Sandbox. Themepark MMORPG been doing that for years, going back to EQ1.

2) like when has Sandbox MMO ever been innovating? Sandbox MMO innovate less than Themepark MMO do. So I have no idea how anybody can link the two (Sandbox & Innovation ) together.

You have no idea what you are talking about and have a very confused definition of what a sandbox is and what an open world is.

An OPEN WORLD refers to the environment refers to the game environment itself and the lack of artificial barriers like loading screens and invisible walls that are common in games with linear levels.

A SANDBOX refers more to game mechanics. In a sandbox a person is allowed to play creatively in a non-linear fashion. There is no right way to play the game. They provide the world in which you can choose how you want to play. Often in games like GTA or TES there might be a story line, but that is completely optional. Basically, the environment, NPC's, monsters, and items are your sand.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Its not a wow clone per se. Its just a term that people use for 'omgyetanotherthemeparkgame' games with publishers afraid of losing money on possible innovative/non-standard things. 

 

so its not a wow clone, its just another themepark game and to make things worse, its using the name of worlds biggest and proably most famous sandbox single player series. To me it comapares to something like... they make a Fifa Online game thats not about football but basketball, with fifa's name on it. its that weird :P

 

edit: the game is everything that its single player series arent. Thats its biggest problem, and thats what all this fuss is about. It wouldnt be that bad if they used some other IP, but people who play and like TES like it for what is it.  Last thing i want to play now is another wow/swtor with different skins.

 

Two things...

1) TES is not a Sandbox. It's open world RPG, not Sandbox. Themepark MMORPG been doing that for years, going back to EQ1.

2) like when has Sandbox MMO ever been innovating? Sandbox MMO innovate less than Themepark MMO do. So I have no idea how anybody can link the two (Sandbox & Innovation ) together.

You have no idea what you are talking about and have a very confused definition of what a sandbox is and what an open world is.

An OPEN WORLD refers to the environment refers to the game environment itself and the lack of artificial barriers like loading screens and invisible walls that are common in games with linear levels.

A SANDBOX refers more to game mechanics. In a sandbox a person is allowed to play creatively in a non-linear fashion. There is no right way to play the game. They provide the world in which you can choose how you want to play. Often in games like GTA or TES there might be a story line, but that is completely optional. Basically, the environment, NPC's, monsters, and items are your sand.

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story. Example: skill progression compliments a sandbox because it offers freedom but its not a defining feature. Playing how you like is not a sandbox feature either. It just compliments it. There is a difference even if you don't see it.

In order for a game to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameworld either build, create or tear down. Garys mod is a sandbox, The sims is a sandbox. TES is not a sandbox no matter how much the devs want to label their game as such. There are many developers that labels their games just because they want to sell more copies. Hellgate London was advertised as a MMO even though it was a lobby arpg. There are plenty of examples of developers hyping their game with labels so I wouldn't put stock into that.

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story. Example: skill progression compliments a sandbox because it offers freedom but its not a defining feature. Playing how you like is not a sandbox feature either. It just compliments it. There is a difference even if you don't see it.

In order for a game to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameworld either build, create or tear down. Garys mod is a sandbox, The sims is a sandbox. TES is not a sandbox no matter how much the devs want to label their game as such. There are many developers that labels their games just because they want to sell more copies. Hellgate London was advertised as a MMO even though it was a lobby arpg. There are plenty of examples of devel0pers hyping their game with labels so I wouldn't put stock into that.

thing is if you took a magical 'resticto-scale' and measured the restriction level of GTA vs TES the numbers would be radically different. I submit that there are very few games in my collection that are more limiting in what I can do than GTA without using cheats. I know the industry has descibed the GTA as a sandbox and I couldnt disagree more. that said, if one was to say TES is a sandbox I would say 'more so than not but not a true one no at least you dont have to do quests to releastically advance'.

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Its not a wow clone per se. Its just a term that people use for 'omgyetanotherthemeparkgame' games with publishers afraid of losing money on possible innovative/non-standard things. 

 

so its not a wow clone, its just another themepark game and to make things worse, its using the name of worlds biggest and proably most famous sandbox single player series. To me it comapares to something like... they make a Fifa Online game thats not about football but basketball, with fifa's name on it. its that weird :P

 

edit: the game is everything that its single player series arent. Thats its biggest problem, and thats what all this fuss is about. It wouldnt be that bad if they used some other IP, but people who play and like TES like it for what is it.  Last thing i want to play now is another wow/swtor with different skins.

^ This ^

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I hate to derail this conversation into yet another sub point to the point but I gotta say using GTA and TES in the same sentence other than describing complete opposites makes my skin crawl. In neither Morrowind, Oblvion or Skyrim have I bothered much with quests and yet I had hunderns of hours of play. GTA you cant get to the other 1/2 of the city without doing the quest or simply cheating.

anyway sorry for the side note.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story. Example: skill progression compliments a sandbox because it offers freedom but its not a defining feature. Playing how you like is not a sandbox feature either. It just compliments it. There is a difference even if you don't see it.

In order for a game to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameworld either build, create or tear down. Garys mod is a sandbox, The sims is a sandbox. TES is not a sandbox no matter how much the devs want to label their game as such. There are many developers that labels their games just because they want to sell more copies. Hellgate London was advertised as a MMO even though it was a lobby arpg. There are plenty of examples of devel0pers hyping their game with labels so I wouldn't put stock into that.

thing is if you took a magical 'resticto-scale' and measured the restriction level of GTA vs TES the numbers would be radically different. I submit that there are very few games in my collection that are more limiting in what I can do than GTA without using cheats. I know the industry has descibed the GTA as a sandbox and I couldnt disagree more. that said, if one was to say TES is a sandbox I would say 'more so than not but not a true one no at least you dont have to do quests to releastically advance'.

 

 

I agree. TES is very very close to being a true sandbox.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I hate to derail this conversation into yet another sub point to the point but I gotta say using GTA and TES in the same sentence other than describing complete opposites makes my skin crawl. In neither Morrowind, Oblvion or Skyrim have I bothered much with quests and yet I had hunderns of hours of play. GTA you cant get to the other 1/2 of the city without doing the quest or simply cheating.

anyway sorry for the side note.

but I think it does speak to the topic.

I'm like you. I played morrowind for over 2 years. pretty much same with oblvion. I recently loaded morrowind and I'm playing both skyrim and morrowind.

It's not about questing. I know full well that there are players who play these games simply for the quests. Heck, a friend of my girlfriend mostly just did the quests. But when we speak of the discoveriees and some of the quests or neat things  one can find while just exploring, he knows nothing about them.

Granted, in games like WoW or LOTRO one can eschew the quests and just head out on their own, picking and choosing. But one can only do this to an extent.

I know there are places in the lotro map where you are required to be on a certain quest chain in order to even access the area.

Yet in a game like Skyrim, (or pick your elderscrolls favorite) you can stumble into any area, regardless of quest line and enjoy it.

You can simply choose not to do any quests and just explore and have fun as you'd like.

Games that allow more sandbox elements grant you this freedom.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I don't care if you agree or not it's pretty much a defining feature of all sandbox games. They all allow you to alter the gameworld. Picking up flowers and making potions is not

EvE

Terraria

Minecraft

DF

Mortal

Garys Mod

Skyrim + creation kit

Archeage

Ryzom

Is just a short list of sandbox games with one defining feature in common. If you want to talk about what it takes to be labeled a sandbox then we have to look at what they share. Skill progression for instance is not a feature they all have in common.